The Death of Annie Dryden

Originally posted by inimalist
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21808209

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19901653

Covered these already.

Did you consider the fact that the male may not have even been concussed due to his differing body type IF you control for weight and height?

Another point I brought up is neck strength:

"Neck strength influences head deltaV and head injury criterion and may help explain different concussion risks in professional and youth athletes, women, and children."

Just passively, he would be better suited to surviving "whiplash" because neck strength plays a direct role in how likely and to the severity concussion occurs.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Covered these already.

Did you consider the fact that the male may not have even been concussed due to his differing body type IF you control for weight and height?

Another point I brought up is neck strength:

"Neck strength influences head deltaV and head injury criterion and may help explain different concussion risks in professional and youth athletes, women, and children."

Just passively, he would be better suited to surviving "whiplash" because neck strength plays a direct role in how likely and to the severity concussion occurs.

well, that first point is nonsense. Both those studies found, point blank, no impact of gender on survival, exactly the point I've been making. What can you possibly think you've covered?

otherwise, that is a different point entirely and represents more of the counterfactuals about the scenario than any gender differences with TBI.

What those points say is that the male body would be less likely to get a TBI in the first place, rather than it having any inherent resistance allowing survival of a TBI once sustained.

Of course gender played a role in her death. If Dryden had been a man, she would have likely been heavier, so she wouldn't have gotten alpha'd so hard.

Originally posted by inimalist
well, that first point is nonsense. Both those studies found, point blank, no impact of gender on survival, exactly the point I've been making.

Actually, that's an incorrect interpretation of my argument and counter to it, as well.

Originally posted by inimalist
What can you possibly think you've covered?

What can you possibly think you've covered that counters the points I've made other than "womenz recover faster".

Originally posted by inimalist
otherwise, that is a different point entirely and represents more of the counterfactuals about the scenario than any gender differences with TBI.

A different point than, "inimalist, you're clearly wrong, using the wrong studies, are contradicted directly by one of your own studies, and are contradicted by other studies that show men are less susceptible to concussion."

Control for weight and height: a man would have been less likely to die than Annie. Fact. Move on and admit you were wrong. Why do you do this, man? You're the worst about admitting being wrong.

Originally posted by inimalist
What those points say is that the male body would be less likely to get a TBI in the first place, rather than it having any inherent resistance allowing survival of a TBI once sustained.

Is this the only way I am going to get you to admit I am right is by an indirect admission of my point? You simply can't restate my original argument and pretend you've made a revelation to me. 😬

Do I need to requote myself to show you where I've said what you're saying above?

Also, think about the context of our conversation: do you think a man is equally likely to go to the hospital for a concussion ER? Control for age, if you want. Why would that be important? Because men may get a head injury but not become concussed. Men may only go when it is bad enough to go. And so forth. There's lots of reasons I would be hesitate to use only ER-based studies to prove a point about gender when there's an obvious gender disparity on ER visits, anyway.

Here's a couple of unreported concussions, lol:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82151101/

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, that's an incorrect interpretation of my argument and counter to it, as well.

What can you possibly think you've covered that counters the points I've made other than "womenz recover faster".

A different point than, "inimalist, you're clearly wrong, using the wrong studies, are contradicted directly by one of your own studies, and are contradicted by other studies that show men are less susceptible to concussion."

Control for weight and height: a man would have been less likely to die than Annie. Fact. Move on and admit you were wrong. Why do you do this, man? You're the worst about admitting being wrong.

Is this the only way I am going to get you to admit I am right is by an indirect admission of my point? You simply can't restate my original argument and pretend you've made a revelation to me. 😬

Do I need to requote myself to show you where I've said what you're saying above?

Also, think about the context of our conversation: do you think a man is equally likely to go to the hospital for a concussion ER? Control for age, if you want. Why would that be important? Because men may get a head injury but not become concussed. Men may only go when it is bad enough to go. And so forth. There's lots of reasons I would be hesitate to use only ER-based studies to prove a point about gender when there's an obvious gender disparity on ER visits, anyway.

wow man, this is a new low

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

He whines too much for that. Everything he does is telling the world about his lack of self confidence, particularly the whole "proud racist" persona.

Real proud racists like Julius Evola would think Zeal is a coward and a hypocrite.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. Because he's male, it may have ended up being a typical scuffle where they just wrestle. If it was a dude, same size as Annie, he would have been stronger so he may have been able to defend the counter-attack a bit better. No matter how you approach the topic, a dude would have fared better in that same scenario even if you "control" for size.

The sense I'm getting from this discussion is that some of us here at KMC have had actual fighting experience, even if only in the sparring sense (which sometimes can get rough). My own martial arts experience (which admittedly is only moderate), made me keenly aware of what I already knew from common experience: men are tougher, faster, even a small man as compared to a large woman. And it's not just a matter of size but also ferocity. Testosterone is definitely a game-changer.

Originally posted by Mindship
And it's not just a matter of size but also ferocity. Testosterone is definitely a game-changer.

She started the fight so ferocity was clearly not something lacking.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
She started the fight so ferocity was clearly not something lacking.

Since strength training increases testosterone in women as well as in men (especially in men), I would imagine that her combat training likely boosted her own (which may've been "higher than average" to begin with: one of the reasons, perhaps, why she became a marine).

Originally posted by inimalist
wow man, this is a new low

I know, right? Are you going out of your way to be dense for to sole purpose of trolling? That really would be a new low for you.

Here's the basic of it:

"Control for weight and height: a man would have been less likely to die than Annie. Fact. Move on and admit you were wrong."

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
She started the fight so ferocity was clearly not something lacking.

No she didn't: she just did a take-down and walked away like an idiot. That's hardly a "ferocious" attack. A ferocious attack would be her taking him down with some Judo (stuff taught to marines) and then pounding his face with her fists.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No she didn't: she just did a take-down and walked away like an idiot. That's hardly a "ferocious" attack.

Wow, you just went and pulled new details out of pure bullshit. That's amazing.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Wow, you just went and pulled new details out of pure bullshit. That's amazing.

Not really. You called it "ferocious", and I showed you that it wasn't. Try to cope a bit better, next time.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Not really. You called it "ferocious", and I showed you that it wasn't. Try to cope a bit better, next time.

I called it ferocious because she started a fight violently.

You pulled a story out of thin air as an attempted counter. There's absolutely no weaker response. It is about what I expect for you, though.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I called it ferocious because she started a fight violently.

Not really. Being put on your ass via "grappling moves" (sounds highly judo-ish to me) is hardly the ferocious violence you're advocating.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You pulled a story out of thin air as an attempted counter. There's absolutely no weaker response. It is about what I expect for you, though.

I "pulled stuff out of thin-air", huh?

😆

Ignoring information because someone contradicted you is about what I expect form you, so I guess we're even, bro?

Edit - You should probably calm down, think clearly, then apologize for flying off the handle. There's no reason to go from normal to rage just because I have a different definition of ferocious than you do. You may not be accustomed to seeing scuffles or fights but I assure you, "grappling" someone to the ground is hardly "ferocious" in a fight. Bag punches, eye gouges, or ground-and-pound would be much closer to "ferociously attacking".

Unless you think there isn't such thing as a woman in the world who put in Annie Dryden's situation that wouldn't have been able to knock the guy out and/or avoid getting slammed (and that's a pretty big ass-umption to make for half the world's population) then this incident says next to nothing about whether women should or shouldn't be in the military any more than it says that humans in general should or shouldn't be in the military.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Unless you think there isn't such thing as a woman in the world who put in Annie Dryden's situation that wouldn't have been able to knock the guy out and/or avoid getting slammed (and that's a pretty big ass-umption to make for half the world's population) then this incident says next to nothing about whether women should or shouldn't be in the military any more than it says that humans in general should or shouldn't be in the military.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Women tend to be smaller and weaker than men, making them less equipped for such. They have separate (lesser) standard for being in the military, putting themselves and their peers at risk. There is lots of rape in the military, making them more likely to be victims. Co-ed military results in idiotic diversity training, mucking up the system. And lastly: what kind of man allows a woman to die in a war? Despicable. A nation of cowards puts its women in harm's way.

A man who doesn't treat a woman as an object to be protected but rather as a person?

I just gave several reasons why women shouldn't be in the military.

Do you think that women are incapable of making their own decisions or living on their own, Zeal?

I think you ought to move to Saudi Arabia. Your views on gender would be the societal norm there.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I just gave several reasons why women shouldn't be in the military.