Infinity Gems vs Cosmic Containment Units....

Originally posted by Stoic

One Gem vs one CCU should go to the CCU.

The CCU can make one just as much "god" as the IG.

The CCU has feats under its belt that are arguably amongst the most uber of Marvel.
(I'm talking omniversal here)

Originally posted by Stoic

[b]This is what I know about the Gems:

It is the Power Gem that makes all of the Gems work at high infinite levels, so altogether, one or many CCU's would be trumped.
[/B]

How about when goddess had the cosmic egg....

Originally posted by rotiart

How about when goddess had the cosmic egg....

Yes,
it would still make the character even more powerful if he had more,
but,
if said character happens to have the will,
said character can utilize ONE CCU with greater affect than 5
or the 30 that made up the Cosmic Egg.

My stance comes from the X-Men's - Chaos Engine Trilogy arc.

Incredible story, on an Omniversal scale.

The highest showings ever for a CCU and also for Roma.

The CCU in that story was going to collapse the Omniverse,
that's how powerful it was, and unbelievably it was only a baby CCU,
and it was even slightly flawed. (not power-wise though)

It took 3 separate alternate UniverseS and placed them one by one on top of 616,
it was also compressing the entire Omniverse slowly but surely.

Towards the end, Doom steals most of Roma's power
and stalemates the Red Skull who had the CCU,
but after a good battle the CCU began to take the edge, and then
the PIS came in to stop the Red Skull and end the story.

And well, part of that ending has the CCU putting back the 3
UniverseS in their rightful place in the Omniverse,
decompressing the Omniverse,
and finally remaking all the damage done to the 3 UniverseS, plus 616,
plus the UniverseS that surround 616 which were infected earlier on
by the CCU.

----------------------------------------------

After it's all said and done,
one has to wonder just how powerful then is the source of the CCU's reality altering ability.

When the CCU that was able to do that
is literally a "minute bit of energy" of the Beyonders.

The mysterious Beyonders.

I don't know... The way the living tribunal puts it almost makes me think it's like an adult left the keys to the car in front of a child and said lets see what happens. They seemed interested not worried. Minute power I the infinite not withstanding. :-/

@rotiart

Exactly. The Tribunal even says "We permitted..." Meaning if He said no, that's that.

Originally posted by rotiart

I don't know... The way the living tribunal puts it almost makes me
think it's like an adult left the keys to the car in front of a child and
said lets see what happens. They seemed interested not worried.

Therefore,
we can assert that the power of the Beyonders is on a ridiculous scale.

That aside,
as for the LT saying we permitted can just as easily signify
they have a working relationship with the Beyonders,
or it could be more sinister as in, we permitted cause we have no choice.

... meh,
I'm speculating but the madness that CCUs have committed doesn't
seem like something any Cosmic would like in their territory
so it doesn't really add up why they would encourage the potential
destruction of all reality as a fun passing experiment.
Then again I guess the Beyonders can come through and rectify the whole thing,
although that's never happened before
since the CCU always ends up fixing the problem itself.

I think it's a working relationship, like Cosmic friends sortaspeak I suppose.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The thing is, Thanos never said that, or anything that alludes to that idea.

Oh really!?

If we bet money on it, you'd lose...

I dont have the scan, but I have the comic right here in front of me; from The Infinity War 1...page 18...1st panel:

Thanos after locating the device holding the 5 CCU's: "I am talking about power readings just short of the levels of the Infinity Gauntlets."

So yeah, Thanos definitely made that statement, and the premise presented in the OP is very plausible as a result...

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well, in Magus' case, he controlled the CCUs entirely with computers so his willpower was never a factor. I could agree with the concept that a CCU can compare to an IG depending on the situation, but, there is no simple rule of thumb like "six is enough to win"; it depends on the situation.

I disagree with the idea that the five CCU was "just short of the IG". Magus, who used both directly one after the other, said the IG was way, way more powerful; it completed the universal merger in a second, which would have taken hours under the five CCUs. And the kicker is, that IG only had five gems. With the full set, the gap would be wider still.

You are correct; the Magus never used the CCU's with direct willpower, but with tech as the CCU's would kill you...

However, I can then say that:

Thanos's will>>Magus's tech>>Goddess's will...as pertains to getting the most out of a CCU then.

As pertains the idea that 5 CCU's are just short of the IG, 1st off we have Thanos (who is highly intelligent and experienced with both artifacts) making the comment, and its a fact that a CCU is only limited by how hard you are able to push it (so to speak)...

Evidently, the 5 CCU's were held back by the Magus's tech (and the fact that direct usage would kill you) while nothing holds back the performance of the IG; the IG proved to be significantly more powerful under those conditions as a result...

Now I do agree with you that a rule of thumb statement such as "6 CCU's is enough" is false; it depends on who is at the controls of the CCU's as pertains how many of them would be needed to equal or surpass the IG...afterall, theorectically, 1 CCU could equal the IG if a strong enough willed individual was at the helm.

Anyway, if the Magus's tech was able to come "just short" (which I interpret as significantly, but not vastly short) of the IG with 5 CCU's, then 6 CCU's should be able to come really close...if not outright equalling or surpassing...the power of the IG.

Isn't the "Chaos Engine Trilogy" a set of novels? Where canonicity is concerned, where do feats from novels stack up next to feats from comic books? I only ask because we are talking about night and day differences in scope here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Isn't the "Chaos Engine Trilogy" a set of novels? Where canonicity is concerned, where do feats from novels stack up next to feats from comic books? I only ask because we are talking about night and day differences in scope here.

I am honestly not sure...

My gut says the novels should be canon, but I cant really back that up with anything concrete...

I wonder what the mods think about this?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

I dont have the scan, but I have the comic right here in front of me; from The Infinity War 1...page 18...1st panel:

Thanos after locating the device holding the 5 CCU's: "I am talking about power readings just short of the levels of the Infinity Gauntlets."

Although, I'll give you my reasons why it still doesn't stand in a minute.

Originally posted by Galan007

Isn't the "Chaos Engine Trilogy" a set of novels? Where canonicity
is concerned, where do feats from novels stack up next to feats from
comic books? I only ask because we are talking about night and day
differences in scope here.

Imo, it should be because incidents that occurred within the Novel arc
affected stories that would otherwise be presented on panel within
actual comic books.

Two characters I believe died in the novel, (I'll get those names for ya)
that appeared on panel before and now never will again.

There was also some reality affects to 616 that remained in order to fix it.

-------------------------

The best argument I guess it has is this:

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/chaochaz.htm

CHAOS ENGINE -

"Cosmic Cube created by Dr. Doom, used in effort to Re-Write Reality,
actually merged Earth-616 and Earth-892 to form
Earth-Chaos Engine: Dr. Doom by Dr. Doom,

then used to further merge/Re-structure that Reality by Magneto to form
Earth-Chaos Engine: Magneto,

and then again by the Red Skull to form
Earth-Chaos Engine: Red Skull;

these alterations affected the entire Omniverse and threatened all Reality"

(Reference)

X-Men / Dr. Doom: Chaos Engine: Book One)

(X-Men / Magneto: Chaos Engine: Book Two)

(X-Men / Red Skull: Chaos Engine: Book Three)

-------------------------

Marvel seems to accept this as 100% Canon:

OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ9" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ9

(under Saturnyne)

"escaped & captured Sat-Yr9"

(X-Men/Magneto: The Chaos Engine Trilogy Book 2 &
X-Men/Red Skull: The Chaos Engine Trilogy Book 3, 2002)"

-------------------------

And Again: (Marvel.com)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ3

(Under Cosmic Cube)

"Cube merged dimensions" (X-Men: The Chaos Engine Trilogy, 2000-2002)"

-------------------------

...sorry yall, this link is now fixed:

Marvel seems to accept this as 100% Canon:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ9

(under Saturnyne)

"escaped & captured Sat-Yr9"

(X-Men/Magneto: The Chaos Engine Trilogy Book 2 &
X-Men/Red Skull: The Chaos Engine Trilogy Book 3, 2002)"

-------------------------

+++++++

If anyone is interested, here's some of the "on panel" visuals of the Novel:

The Novel is 864 pages long with over 800 pages of pure text.

It's one of the best reads I've enjoyed.

PS. This was the most difficult comic/novel/book to find, ever. (for free that is)

^ It could very well be canon, but it's a very rare instance when novelizations are used in the comic book vs. forum (in fact, I can't remember any other time this has happened..?mmm) That's the only reason I asked.

Anywho, it's not that I don't or won't accept the novel's depiction of a CCU, it's just hard to accept it when a CCU has never demonstrated a scope of influence anywhere near that level in a comic book. However, if it IS canon, then a CCU would be WELL above the IG, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ It could very well be canon, but it's a very rare instance when novelizations are used in the comic book vs. forum (in fact, I can't remember any other time this has happened..?mmm) That's the only reason I asked.

Anywho, it's not that I don't or won't accept the novel's depiction of a CCU, it's just hard to accept it when a CCU has never demonstrated a scope of influence anywhere near that level in a comic book. However, if it IS canon, then a CCU would be WELL above the IG, imo.

It is canon in the sense that it even appeared in the Cosmic Cubes Handbook Entry :

Said Doom wanted the Cube to make some universal level change but the nascent Cube wasn't powerful enough so instead grafted another reality that was close to what Doom wished for onto the one Doom was in. This caused some instability issues and Roma stepped in.

Originally posted by zopzop

It is canon in the sense that it even appeared in the Cosmic Cubes Handbook Entry :

Said Doom wanted the Cube to make some universal level change but
the nascent Cube wasn't powerful enough so instead grafted another
reality that was close to what Doom wished for onto the one Doom
was in. This caused some instability issues and Roma stepped in.

btw. That description of what happened is vague and portion of what took place.

The CCU took an entire alternate Universe from somewhere out in the Omniverse,
and merged it with the 616 Reality for Doom.
Then the CCU took another entire alternate Universe from somewhere out in the Omniverse,
and merged it with the 616 Reality for Magneto,

Then it the same thing for the Red Skull.

The CCU had a flaw though, so at first the CCU's actions were unstable,
this flaw caused the CCU to infect by warping badly
the surrounding Universes around 616, I believe it was 12 Realities.

The CCU's flaw also caused it to slowly compress the entire Omniverse,
this is what really got Roma's attention.

It goes to show what a CCU is capable of fully unleashed.

But we gotta give Roma her props.

In that story Roma came out as a true Guardian of the Omniverse,
so much so, that we got to know what her power is when written to
true potential.

Doom (empowered by most of Roma's power, not full)
was able to stalemate the power of the CCU for a good while before
it began to lose the edge.

But that CCU was just ridiculous it repaired everything across the Omniverse,
with a change or two.

Originally posted by zopzop
It is canon in the sense that it even appeared in the Cosmic Cubes Handbook Entry :

Originally posted by Mr Master
👆 Yea, I was about to post actual Handbook scans, there's also
others.

btw. That description of what happened is vague and portion of what took place.

The CCU took an entire alternate Universe from somewhere out in the Omniverse,
and merged it with the 616 Reality for Doom.
Then the CCU took another entire alternate Universe from somewhere out in the Omniverse,
and merged it with the 616 Reality for Magneto,

Then it the same thing for the Red Skull.

The CCU had a flaw though, so at first the CCU's actions were unstable,
this flaw caused the CCU to infect by warping badly
the surrounding Universes around 616, I believe it was 12 Realities.

The CCU's flaw also caused it to slowly compress the entire Omniverse,
this is what really got Roma's attention.

It goes to show what a CCU is capable of fully unleashed.

But we gotta give Roma her props.

In that story Roma came out as a true Guardian of the Omniverse,
so much so, that we got to know what her power is when written to
true potential.

Doom (empowered by most of Roma's power, not full)
was able to stalemate the power of the CCU for a good while before
it began to lose the edge.

But that CCU was just ridiculous it repaired everything across the Omniverse,
with a change or two.

We don't tend to use novels as proof...

i always tweet the writers and editors

😛

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