Lord Mar-vell vs The Runner...

Originally posted by zopzop

Wasn't this before he lost his Space Gem to Thanos? The cosmic race in the Quasar issue took place after he lost the Space Gem.

Again wasn't the SS encounter prior to losing the Space Gem to Thanos? His post Thanos Quest appearances are few and rather pathetic honestly. [/B]

they have been pathetic, i agree. but are you suggesting that we should assume retroactively that runner had the gem in all those earlier appearances?

i think i'd disagree with that idea. he wore the gem on his forehead. he never appeared to have it early in his career.

For what its worth, even if we assume Nova is as fast as the Runner, terrain could play a role in this battle. When Nova engaged Mar-vell at super speed it was in a relatively closed space (inside a ship) and it looked like Mar-vell was able to enclose him in some kind of containment field to stop the blitz and force Nova to face him head up in close quarters. The Runner would be fighting in an fairly open environment with the added benefit of basic knowledge, which should favor him imo.

Just my two cents.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/1a20ef97181836
http://www.imagebam.com/image/a2381497181846

Going with Lord Mar-vell, but Runner puts up a fight.

Originally posted by leonidas
but are you suggesting that we should assume retroactively that runner had the gem in all those earlier appearances?

i think i'd disagree with that idea. he wore the gem on his forehead. he never appeared to have it early in his career.

The chronology goes something like this :

Elders attack Galactus with 6 soul gems set up with six planets orbiting a dead sun. Nova destroys the sun, they get sucked into a black hole. They later emerge from the black hole and are each given back their gems (apparently the Runner got the Space Gem). This was about Dec 1988.

Then Thanos comes along and takes the Gem from Runner (this was about Oct 1990).

So he had the Gem in any of his appearances from 1988 to 1990.

The confrontation with the Surfer appears to be before he got his hands on the Space Gem, but then again, he went one on one vs the Surfer in a direct confrontation. No fancy footwork really.

What year/issue did the Moondragon scan come from?

EDIT:

It appears that the Moondragon/Runner encounter was from Defenders 143 in 1985. He wouldn't have the Space Gem yet.

It appears he was toned down majorly after his rescue by Order/Chaos in Silver Surfer 17 (November 1988). Because his appearances from that point on were sad.

Originally posted by carver9
Nova IS one of the faster Heralds out there. As for the fight..just like it was stated above, Mar-vell really isn't that impressive imo. He shielded himself against Nova and snuck attack Magus and damaged a Surfer that really wasn't even attacking him. If that's all it takes to be above top tier, then you need to include this ranking for Thor, Superman, Savage Hulk, and the list goes on. Runner stomps.

that's from an early defenders issue. '84 or '85. so no gem. this fight depends entirely upon how you choose to view runner. the earlier versions of the elders (champion, runner, even grandmaster to some degree though he's had some good showings more recently as well) seemed to portray the elders more powerfully. like i said, i tend to throw out that quasar bs. doing that, runner has been shown to be pretty powerful. i'd still take him over the even less well-defined mar-vell.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's from an early defenders issue. '84 or '85. so no gem. this fight depends entirely upon how you choose to view runner. the earlier versions of the elders (champion, runner, even grandmaster to some degree though he's had some good showings more recently as well) seemed to portray the elders more powerfully. like i said, i tend to throw out that quasar bs. doing that, runner has been shown to be pretty powerful. i'd still take him over the even less well-defined mar-vell.

It seems the Order/Chaos rescue in SS 17 > Thanos Quest arc was the end of the Elders as serious powers. Champion began jobbing like a loser and the Runner was never the same again.

Originally posted by zopzop

Wasn't this before he lost his Space Gem to Thanos? [/B]

The Runner.

the runner doesn't possess the power of death to stop lord marv

Mar-Vell.
And IMO it's not that close.

i think runner would win with space gem

Runner regardless he is one of the most powerful Elders under Ego and Grandmaster. The Runner can amp through the power primordial

Marvell wins , through various ways

Originally posted by zopzop

Wasn't this before he lost his Space Gem to Thanos? The cosmic race in the Quasar issue took place after he lost the Space Gem.

Again wasn't the SS encounter prior to losing the Space Gem to Thanos? His post Thanos Quest appearances are few and rather pathetic honestly. [/B]

Anyway, I believe Runner said he was holding back in that race past Zop, and he could have tapped into more. As well as Mak training pretty much every issue since the first race until he finally found the secret of speed.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Imagine your shame when that was written by the same person who is the only person who seemingly wrote up your precious Starbrand (though it did nothing in that series) past what Hickman did.

Lest you think that was an isolated occurrence, he had his chance at the end of Starblast to re-challenge the Starbrand and he backed down (he ordered Stranger to teleport the New Universe Earth back to it's multiverse but then Stranger warned him that wasn't wise because it would unleash a "hideously powerful being" into 616 multiverse and the LT rescinded his demand).

The LT himself said the Starbrand was potential peer to the abstracts. Keep in mind Erishkigal had the damn thing for LESS than a day.

If you believe Hickman's Starbrand is capable of that, I don't know what to tell you.

Anyway, I believe Runner said he was holding back in that race past Zop, and he could have tapped into more. As well as Mak training pretty much every issue since the first race until he finally found the secret of speed.

Originally posted by zopzop

Obviously the Living Tribunal didn't see it your way otherwise he wouldn't have been crapping his pants as Erishkigal was toying with Master Order and Lord Chaos right up in his face and he couldn't stop her. Then she dared him to do something and he was the one that backed down and proposed they fight through proxies.

Lest you think that was an isolated occurrence, he had his chance at the end of Starblast to re-challenge the Starbrand and he backed down (he ordered Stranger to teleport the New Universe Earth back to it's multiverse but then Stranger warned him that wasn't wise because it would unleash a "hideously powerful being" into 616 multiverse and the LT rescinded his demand).

The LT himself said the Starbrand was potential peer to the abstracts. Keep in mind Erishkigal had the damn thing for LESS than a day.

If you believe Hickman's Starbrand is capable of that, I don't know what to tell you.

I don't think he was though. I never saw it mentioned on panel. The only rules of the race were that every few (hundred/thousand/forgot which) yards your feet HAD to have touched the ground otherwise you'd be disqualified from the race. [/B]

Because he didn't want anything from that universe interacting with the normal universe. That's like saying he was scared of the planet. LT was all about keeping the balance of power in those issues. He wouldn't even let Quasar take his quantum bands to the world with him because it would upset the balance of power in the universe.

Anyway, Gruen's Starbrand is largely featless. And it is the only Starbrand supposedly written above Hickman's... and you have a problem with Grun's Runner, but favor his depiction of Starbrand over anything else (even the original). It's rather delicious.

Basically, every other Starbrand except Grun's is "planetary" in scope. But you choose this as the favorable depiction.

He seemed pretty confident he could beat Mak:
http://i44.tinypic.com/2h7duev.jpg

Along with how non chalant he was in the race, and Mak traveling at light speed passing him... but then again, that might just be the hack writing from a guy who wrote Starbrand up. Right?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
LT would have wiped the floor with her.

Because he didn't want anything from that universe interacting with the normal universe. That's like saying he was scared of the planet. LT was all about keeping the balance of power in those issues. He wouldn't even let Quasar take his quantum bands to the world with him because it would upset the balance of power in the universe.

Anyway, Gruen's Starbrand is largely featless. And it is the only Starbrand supposedly written above Hickman's... and you have a problem with Grun's Runner, but favor his depiction of Starbrand over anything else (even the original). It's rather delicious.

I don't have a problem with Gruenwald's Runner seeing as how prior to this, Runner had like only ONE fight. That's it. So that could have been a high showing. Lord knows all subsequent appearances were lackluster.

Kind of like Champion. He had one or two good showings then it was all down hill from there.

Basically, every other Starbrand except Grun's is "planetary" in scope. But you choose this as the favorable depiction.

He seemed pretty confident he could beat Mak:
http://i44.tinypic.com/2h7duev.jpg

Along with how non chalant he was in the race, and Mak traveling at light speed passing him... but then again, that might just be the hack writing from a guy who wrote Starbrand up. Right?

Originally posted by zopzop

Yeah, that's why he didn't dare attack her directly and suggested they fight through proxies.

If that was the case, then why didn't he destroy the Starbrand when Erishkigal lost their bet and had to hand it over to him? He faked the funk like he was going to get rid of it but then turns around and secretly gives it back to Kayla! LOL.

Gruenwald's Starbrand has more and more impressive feats than Hickman's Starbrand just for the simple reason that Gruenwald's Brand was a prominent feature of the Quasar series, even having it's own event : Starblast.

I don't have a problem with Gruenwald's Runner seeing as how prior to this, Runner had like only ONE fight. That's it. So that could have been a high showing. Lord knows all subsequent appearances were lackluster.

Kind of like Champion. He had one or two good showings then it was all down hill from there.

Because they feared cutting loose with the power and restrained themselves. The guy that passed it on to Quasar said as much and before he gave it over he made sure Quasar was responsible enough to wield the power.

He THOUGHT he could but they never got a chance to rematch. Even Grandmaster was ready to choose Makkari as his new champion and abandoned the Runner. [/B]

Because she wouldn't use it, and it all got sealed up away from 616. All he had to do was seal it in a shield
Although, the best explanation would be Gruen being a hack.

Assuming Gruen's is the most impressive, going completely by that notion... that doesn't help the notion of Gruen not writing it way up that goes against every pre and post showing from then on. But instead, this is the only real showing of the Starbrand you go by.

No Runner didn't. And Runner's first showing had him crossing galaxies. Under Gruen he couldn't even go light speed apparently.
I see you realize the problem here though. You have to defend both instances otherwise it makes you seem like a hypocrite.

And Runner has only had like a couple appearances since Thanos Quest anyway. The Quasar issues, and a couple panels of standing around in the Ronan tie in for Annihilation. He sure went downhill all right...

He said this under Gruenwald who wrote up the Starbrand. In the meantime the first Starbrand was like city/asteroid level, and Ellis/Hickman is planetary.

Why would he think he could beat him if he wasn't holding back? Running isn't a fight. He can't strategize it.
But then again, a guy who previously easily crosses galaxies can't even travel light speed, so maybe that was his max speed and every other appearance was wrong. If we only accept one depiction like we do with Starbrand, then why wouldn't we accept one depiction of Runner? That one issue involving Runner is the absolute depiction

Although accepting Runner only being able to travel light speed if even raises all sorts of problems on its own aside from past zop seeming to have problems with it.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Or why she chose to kill herself instead of surrendering.

Because she wouldn't use it, and it all got sealed up away from 616. All he had to do was seal it in a shield
Although, the best explanation would be Gruen being a hack.

B) Kayla didn't have the Starbrand when the LT sealed up that world, just the fraction of it all former users have! The Starbrand was back in the New Universe multiverse with Skeletron!

Assuming Gruen's is the most impressive, going completely by that notion... that doesn't help the notion of Gruen not writing it way up that goes against every pre and post showing from then on. But instead, this is the only real showing of the Starbrand you go by.

No Runner didn't. And Runner's first showing had him crossing galaxies. Under Gruen he couldn't even go light speed apparently.
I see you realize the problem here though. You have to defend both instances otherwise it makes you seem like a hypocrite.

And Runner has only had like a couple appearances since Thanos Quest anyway. The Quasar issues, and a couple panels of standing around in the Ronan tie in for Annihilation. He sure went downhill all right...

He said this under Gruenwald who wrote up the Starbrand. In the meantime the first Starbrand was like city/asteroid level, and Ellis/Hickman is planetary.

Hickmans' Starbrand is nothing more than a creation of the Builders (these guys can't even handle their own space ships) and just one of the many things they made and is not responsible for the White Event.

Why would he think he could beat him if he wasn't holding back? Running isn't a fight. He can't strategize it.
But then again, a guy who previously easily crosses galaxies can't even travel light speed, so maybe that was his max speed and every other appearance was wrong. If we only accept one depiction like we do with Starbrand, then why wouldn't we accept one depiction of Runner? That one issue involving Runner is the absolute depiction

Although accepting Runner only being able to travel light speed if even raises all sorts of problems on its own aside from past zop seeming to have problems with it.