Originally posted by dadudemon
My bias is clarly showing. 😄But, that is how I think, sometimes. If you remember my arguments with a banned member form years back (Devil King), I am sometimes extremely atheistic.
Feel free to reword my suggestion to not be so abrasive/rude to the other categories. 👆
What I'd really like is Digi's feedback because he's better at this category stuff.
no, I just meant that is an apt description of how I feel about things
The graph probably works well, and it's a field instead of a linear progression, which is cool. The problem is simply in usage. A number line is far simpler, and thus has more easy applications in discussion. I can't create a hypothetical graph in a friend's mind without some mental gymnastics, but I can easily list a bunch of things and say "which are you?" Descriptive power often sacrifices practicality in discussions of any sort.
However, if you convert my numbers into graph points, making axes for spirituality and the God question, I do think it holds greater descriptive value.
Originally posted by dadudemon
AHA!Sounds like he is becoming jaded and cynical in his old age. He used to talk about God in everything. And from my observations, even atheists, as they get older, turn into theists...they just start to hope in things as they face mortality. The exact opposite is true of intellectuals, though (again, from my own observations).
I'd contend there's probably some heavy confirmation bias going on here. History has shown us unequivocally that people want to interpret their rivals' behaviors and beliefs as secretly endorsing their own. The litany of (nearly always false) deathbed conversions is a great example.
I'd also retort with the idea that belief can't be faked or decided upon, you either believe or you don't. It would take some pretty hardcore self-delusion for a lifelong atheist to suddenly start believing near death.
Of course, your use of "hope" makes things murky as well. I HOPE there's an awesome afterlife, and I'm nowhere near death. I'll probably hope for it even harder when I am. I also hope I gain super powers at some point. Doesn't mean I believe it though. Two different ideas entirely.
Worth a chuckle.
Originally posted by Digi
I'd contend there's probably some heavy confirmation bias going on here. History has shown us unequivocally that people want to interpret their rivals' behaviors and beliefs as secretly endorsing their own. The litany of (nearly always false) deathbed conversions is a great example.I'd also retort with the idea that belief can't be faked or decided upon, you either believe or you don't. It would take some pretty hardcore self-delusion for a lifelong atheist to suddenly start believing near death.
Of course, your use of "hope" makes things murky as well. I HOPE there's an awesome afterlife, and I'm nowhere near death. I'll probably hope for it even harder when I am. I also hope I gain super powers at some point. Doesn't mean I believe it though. Two different ideas entirely.
So you've never run across the type that changes their mind because death is closer? It seems fairly common from my observations. Not all atheists are the "raging lonely" types that people like to characterize them as. Some are quite casual and it only takes a single experience for them to change their mind.
One of my highschool friends just recently switched from atheism to evangelical christianity...and he's not past 60. Edit - That was worded in a humorous manner. I mean, he was one of the last people I would suspect to turn to an extreme form of theism. I do not see the problem for non-academic old people (I do see intellectuals being set in their ways, though).
Why are older people more theistic than their younger counterparts, as well?
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
YouTube videoWorth a chuckle.
😆
The unbaptism ceremony was hilarious.
I also like his point about nachos and cheese into bread and fishes. Point well taken. Imagine how many righteous supporters (former atheists) God could get on His side IF something like that happened?
Originally posted by dadudemon
So you've never run across the type that changes their mind because death is closer? It seems fairly common from my observations. Not all atheists are the "raging lonely" types that people like to characterize them as. Some are quite casual and it only takes a single experience for them to change their mind.One of my highschool friends just recently switched from atheism to evangelical christianity...and he's not past 60. Edit - That was worded in a humorous manner. I mean, he was one of the last people I would suspect to turn to an extreme form of theism. I do not see the problem for non-academic old people (I do see intellectuals being set in their ways, though).
Why are older people more theistic than their younger counterparts, as well?
Atheists are probably no different.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I would say its more like as you get older you become more entrenched in whatever you believe in when you're younger.Atheists are probably no different.
I thought people leaned more towards theism, as they got older?
This is only based on personal observation. I don't know if there's a study.
Edit - It would not appear that I am not full of shit (this time? lol).
http://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/Religion_and_Health_All_August09.pdf
"It is almost universally true that the elderly and women are more religious, and I find evidence in favor of a genuine aging effect, not simply a cohort effect associated with secularization."
Originally posted by dadudemon
So you've never run across the type that changes their mind because death is closer? It seems fairly common from my observations. Not all atheists are the "raging lonely" types that people like to characterize them as. Some are quite casual and it only takes a single experience for them to change their mind.One of my highschool friends just recently switched from atheism to evangelical christianity...and he's not past 60. Edit - That was worded in a humorous manner. I mean, he was one of the last people I would suspect to turn to an extreme form of theism. I do not see the problem for non-academic old people (I do see intellectuals being set in their ways, though).
Why are older people more theistic than their younger counterparts, as well?
Conversion stories are not proximity-to-death stories. I'd say your friend doesn't count as evidence of your point at all because it's merely a story of conversion, not of conversion because he's nearing death. I don't doubt that conversions happen. And they also happen the other way, of course, perhaps in greater numbers given statistical trends in census data for religious/non-religious. I simply doubt that death is a prime motivating factor for turning actual atheists (1-4's on my scale on this page) into theists.
And have I run into anyone who has changed to that once they get older? No. I've seen apathetic theists become devout theists later in life, but that always just seemed disingenuous to me. I think a lot of what you're talking about is people who lead secular, non-religious lives, don't have stated beliefs, but aren't actually atheist.
I'd contend that anyone capable of becoming theist simply from proximity to death couldn't have been an atheist to begin with, except in extremely rare cases. Think about it. Hope doesn't equal belief, however strong. We're all capable of realizing this; it's why no one actually believes in unicorns or Santa Claus. Anyone capable of "hoping" their way into theism, was probably agnostic or vaguely theistic to begin with, even if they lived their life in a secular manner.
Along those lines, you're also dangerously close to suggesting something akin to Pascal's Wager, which we know is flawed for a number of reasons. If fear of death drives them to belief, can it actually engender belief? Or just the facsimile of belief, which wouldn't constitute actual theism?
Lastly, it's a convenient story, one I've already heard dozens of times in my relatively young life. "Oh, you know, believe tend to believe in God as they get older. Have to make peace with the creator before they visit him..." etc. etc. The foxhole cliche, as well as the fabricated deathbed conversion story cliche, are other examples of this as a popular, yet totally unproven argument. In many cases, as with the deathbed conversions, we've debunked them entirely. To be fair, this also happens both ways...accusations of religious figures changing their views near death is just as infested into the false stories propagated by those with an agenda. But it further enhances my point. Lacking empirical evidence of any sort, what's more likely:
- Confirmation bias
- Small sampling data on your end
- They aren't actual atheists to begin with (#1-4's)
- Misinterpretation of hope for belief
- Misinterpretation of Pascal's Wager belief for true belief
- Some combination of those above
- Actual atheist-to-theist conversion as a result of proximity to death, without other causes playing a significant factor
Burden of proof and, imo, Occum's Razor both favor me.
If you have evidence of higher levels of theism later in life, one, I'd love to see it, and two, I wouldn't be surprised. But it's because lapsed Christians become devout Christians later in life...that makes sense. Retirement, kids leaving, death approaching WITH a belief in a deity already in place (just untended for years). Atheists 1-4's, doesn't.
Originally posted by Digi
If you have evidence of higher levels of theism later in life, one, I'd love to see it, and two, I wouldn't be surprised. But it's because lapsed Christians become devout Christians later in life...that makes sense. Retirement, kids leaving, death approaching WITH a belief in a deity already in place (just untended for years). Atheists 1-4's, doesn't.
Yeah, see what I replied to Omega with.
I still hold that some switch, later in life, from atheism to theism. We will both, obviously, bring a confirmation bias from our own anecdotes: that's why I was careful to say "from my experience" because I did not know if it was true, for sure. If it were possible, you would be entertained if you came to church (my local one) and talked to a couple of old men that decided upon theism (Mormonism, of all things) after decades of atheism (devote). Again, more anecdotes, but actually on topi (unlike my high-school buddy who, as an example, was almost entirely irrelevant to my point).
Spoiler:
While you're there, I'll baptize you and ordain you to the priesthood using my Mormon powers. 😆 😆 😆
On a side note: one of my friends (he was a solid 5 on your 1-5 atheism scale) switched to theism. He goes to church now, and everything. He's more like a 0 (like me) now, so he's not truly a full-fledged idio...I mean Christian evangelical. He was the most shocking switcheroo I have ever heard of or seen. He's also an intellectual and it was his studies of Kant that sparked his change (I have no idea why...).
I know some people that have switched from theism to atheism, as well. None of those people are good examples, however. This other friend (might as well use a name to differentiate from that highschool friend), we'll call him Larry, is one of the few "pure" conversions to belief from total disbelief I have ever seen. He wasn't pesuaded by a death in the family, a personal sickness, a life hardship, or anything. He was genuinely converted. My theist turned atheist peers do not have such stories to share: theirs is the classic story of overbearing Christian evangelical parents and an oppressive age-group (you know the types: "OMG, did you see the dress Sarah was wearing? Such a whore! She's going to hell" Yeah, those types).
I prefer the conversions (from theism to atheism or from atheism to theism) which are more pure and were genuinely spurred by untainted thoughtfulness and contemplation. Yours is a good example of a gentle and smooth conversion from theism to atheism (I think).
Where were we? What I am talking about, now? I don't know what this was really about. Is it that I am accusing both sides of having emotionally charged reasons for "changing teams"? Well, yes. That's part of my point, I think.
Holy water burns my skin. You better not try that sh*t.
😐
Your opinion makes intuitive sense, which is why it's hard to shake. But my rational faculties have taught me to mistrust such instincts because they are very often wrong, in numerous fields where we can and have proven their wrong-ness.
Shocking switches happen both ways. I don't doubt your friend's conversion at all, but it's also just one guy. Census data suggests that while total theists are increasing due to population size, percentaged-wise they're dropping slowly, and have been for decades. There's also a church that you go to where you can interact with these converts....there's no congregation of atheists to point to all the theism-to-atheism conversions. So there's definitely some sampling bias in your observations.
And yeah, I don't know if my experience was entirely gentle, but it was definitely gradual and intellectual, not emotional or sudden.
Originally posted by Digi
Holy water burns my skin. You better not try that sh*t.😐
Your opinion makes intuitive sense, which is why it's hard to shake. But my rational faculties have taught me to mistrust such instincts because they are very often wrong, in numerous fields where we can and have proven their wrong-ness.
Shocking switches happen both ways. I don't doubt your friend's conversion at all, but it's also just one guy. Census data suggests that while total theists are increasing due to population size, percentaged-wise they're dropping slowly, and have been for decades. There's also a church that you go to where you can interact with these converts....there's no congregation of atheists to point to all the theism-to-atheism conversions. So there's definitely some sampling bias in your data.
And yeah, I don't know if my experience was entirely gentle, but it was definitely gradual and intellectual, not emotional or sudden.
Did you read that long ass paper I posted? It feels like it is confirming exactly what I was saying about old people.
I would note that it says "religion" and "religious practices" instead of "secular to theistic views on life". However, it says much of what I was stating.
I would not dare try to convert you, btw. 😐 Besides, baptism for the dead! 😆
Originally posted by Digi
And yeah, I don't know if my experience was entirely gentle, but it was definitely gradual and intellectual, not emotional or sudden.
One of my atheist friends turned me onto an idea about "true conversions": it is difficult to call someone's conversion truly genuine unless it was independently undertaken of life's bullshit.
He was talking about someone like "Larry" not having any reason to change his entire approach to life. He was talking about people like you that had no reason to shed a very strong conviction in a belief system (well, I thought your conversion was one of those smooth types that came from simple intellectual enlightenment. I would prefer to think yours was that way).
I missed the link amidst the conversation. It does seem to focus on the word "secular" which is indeed something else entirely. You're talking about non-practicing 5's and 6's (on my page 3 list), not atheists per se.
As sometimes happens with us, we seem headed toward some common ground (which I actually think is more our willingness to search out the common ground than actual agreement on a lot of this stuff, but meh). I was opposing that age converts a significant number of atheists, and I stand by that. Secular agnostics or secular theists are a different subset entirely (and also much larger, so frequent conversions would be more common).
I saw a confirmation* in what I was saying due to the old men at my ward (what we call our "parishes" or "congregation"😉. I will freely admit that this would build a strong confirmation bias. The only group of old people I have seen a "strict" adherence to atheism is the intellectual/academic side of things. Those types seem to be quite stubborn (the same types exist on the theistic side, quite frequently, but you were already aware of that type).
*My confirmation bias that you referenced.
Confirmation bias, no, that was wrong. That implies you misinterpreting their conversions incorrectly. I spoke too soon there. But sampling bias, yes. You're in a position to see converts to theism, not as much vice-versa. Theists in general are in this position more, since atheism doesn't have weekly gatherings. The conversions you mention exist in spades. Even atheist-to-religious. But so do their foils. That's the point really.
And the death argument I think has more bearing on non-practicing theists, not atheists, for reasons mentioned.
Originally posted by Digi
And the death argument I think has more bearing on non-practicing theists, not atheists, for reasons mentioned.
Originally posted by rudester
Atheism - to me means someone free from rule. Someone who has come to terms that we are alone in the universe, not so much as being the only planet inhabited by species but more so, the idea that we control are own destiny.(without the help of a higher power controlling us).
I hope we humans create God, literally. pained