Originally posted by Nietzschean
It really depends on writer. i am willing to accept that in some instances it isnt mention or acknowledge.but, one should also give equal weight when they see it happening to Batman in space on the moon without an astronaut suit, Aquaman, Diana.
If it applies for Superman not needing to breath and all things being equal neither does WW, AM, or BM.
Aquaman held his breath.
Originally posted by abhilegend
When was this? There were a number of supergirls at that time and none of them were kryptonians. Can you give any issue numbers?
As I said this was post Loeb, post Mongul training and it was definitely Kara, not Linda Danvers or anything like that. I dont know issue numbers but i coud try and trawl the archives at Alvaros and see what i can come up with. From memory she was running out of oxygen and she just managed to make it to a transporter/teleporter which brought her back from deep space.
Originally posted by Fifthchild
As I said this was post Loeb, post Mongul training and it was definitely Kara, not Linda Danvers or anything like that. I dont know issue numbers but i coud try and trawl the archives at Alvaros and see what i can come up with. From memory she was running out of oxygen and she just managed to make it to a transporter/teleporter which brought her back from deep space.
OK scans seem to have disappeared from the archived thread but i have an issue number - Supergirl 23. From a quick google search here is how some random reviewer chick described the issue:
http://ami-angelwings.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/supergirl-23-review.html
"She yells at Batman but then gets called away by Superman who is fighting mysterious invaders with the Green Lanterns. He tells her that they have a job for her, she has to follow one of the enemy ships back home, and she's given a device by the GL Corps that allows her to warp back home. Superman tells her to take a deep breath and that she'll only have 2 hours of air and the GL tells her to stay above the ship in it's sensor blind spot and follow it back to base. She leaves before listening to the whole briefing.
She finds the ship, follows it, flies thru a sun, gets all hot from it, comes out and the ship sees her, shoots at her, she runs out of air and comes back.... or something..."
Originally posted by abhilegend
Diana can't breath in space, I even gave a scan where only she and faith were wearing a mask. Heck she was stuck on a planet during DOS because she couldn't fly in space and some unnamed martian was drowning her untill Kal saved her in terror incognita. Untill there was some official upgrade which like what superman recieved when he trained with mongul, any disparity with the official stance on diana's ability to breath in space can be blamed on inconstitancies.
I don't understand how this disputes anything I said. Are you certain you read my post? I suggest a second try, just to let it sink in.
I repeat, comics have shown consistently over the years that talking in space and flying through it without a breathing apparatus is not evidence that an individual no longer require oxygen. I can literally post you examples Wonder Woman, Thor, Hulk etc. talking in space or flying in it without a breathing apparatus but clearly needing to breath under the same writers.
You seem to have this preconceived notion that it is conclusive evidence and seem to try to fit anything you can around that theory or toss out what you can't. Take a step back, look at all the various examples I posted and think. Going nuh uh doesn't change the precedent comics have set.
I mean I can even post an example of Superman talking in space under a writer who definitely had him depended on air. Along side someone with a breathing apparatus.
Character's hold their breath, since I know you read comics I'm not sure why this is a foreign idea to you. Even Martians have been shown to need air but they just hold their breath.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman once nearly powerless spent years trapped in the core of earth where there can't be any trace of air. That's the official instance on how much superman needs air to survive.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm not out to prove that Superman definitely needs oxygen, I'm just pointing out how incredibly flawed it is to use the lack of an apparatus or talking in space as evidence for him not needing it.
For the record, are you referring to that possible future?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't understand how this disputes anything I said. Are you certain you read my post? I suggest a second try, just to let it sink in.
I repeat, comics have shown consistently over the years that talking in space and flying through it without a breathing apparatus is not evidence that an individual no longer require oxygen. I can literally post you examples Wonder Woman, Thor, Hulk etc. talking in space or flying in it without a breathing apparatus but clearly needing to breath under the same writers.
It does when you have an official upgrade like this
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Supermanv2153-07.jpg
or when you can breath in space as superboy
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/ccf0203201200001.jpg
http://imageshack.us/f/7/ccf0203201200001.jpg
Thor has said that he doesn't need to breath
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g9/Takion_photos/Hulk5014.jpg
I know its crap but I thought thor doesn't need to breath. He might've needed to breath sometimes as he has a long history. Hulk also doesn't need to breath as he said such when they went to attack Hiro-kala.
You seem to have this preconceived notion that it is conclusive evidence and seem to try to fit anything you can around that theory or toss out what you can't. Take a step back, look at all the various examples I posted and think. Going nuh uh doesn't change the precedent comics have set.
You have this preconceived notion that you can give some random character doing something and reject a specific character doing something but the difference is that the characters you are mentioning don't have as many showings to do that. You try to give the idea that because diana has been seen in space sometimes without a mask, so any time superman is seen in space without mask is the same as her holding breath. The difference is that superman has received many upgrades in which one specifically gave him the ability to breath in space and later it was retconned as him having this ability from start.
I mean I can even post an example of Superman talking in space under a writer who definitely had him depended on air. Along side someone with a breathing apparatus.
Then its crap writing like this one
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/elisha_carmen/dc/jla-owaw.jpg
Flash and kyle floating in space without any protection tells us how much the writer knows about space
Character's hold their breath, since I know you read comics I'm not sure why this is a foreign idea to you. Even Martians have been shown to need air but they just hold their breath.
I know that character hold their breath in space and just relying on some random scan to prove that a character can breath in space is stupid but to rely on a random character's ability to "talk" in space to disprove a character's established powers is also wrong.
Since you must have missed it the first time:
So what are you arguing here, if superman needs air to survive so we would've to ignore a LOT of his showings in the past decade or we can say that most of time he doesn't need air but there are exceptions where he needed air to survive. Chose one
For the record, are you referring to that possible future?
Yeah the same.
Originally posted by abhilegend
I certainly did, there is no need for me to re-read it.
Really? Because it seems you’re just trying to reach a word quota instead of trying to understand what I’ve been posting and replying to it.
Originally posted by abhilegend
It does when you have an official upgrade like thishttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Supermanv2153-07.jpg
or when you can breath in space as superboy
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/ccf0203201200001.jpg
http://imageshack.us/f/7/ccf0203201200001.jpgThor has said that he doesn't need to breath
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g9/Takion_photos/Hulk5014.jpgI know its crap but I thought thor doesn't need to breath. He might've needed to breath sometimes as he has a long history. Hulk also doesn't need to breath as he said such when they went to attack Hiro-kala.
That may or may not be evidence of Superman no longer requiring oxygen (The issue of distance suggests that oxygen is still needed by some amount) but it’s completely irrelevant. Let’s assume for a minute that it without a doubt does prove that Superman no longer requires oxygen, it still doesn’t change my main argument one bit.
I don’t give a shit whether Superman needs oxygen or not. I am simply addressing the fallacious reasoning you’re using. Classic Thor needs air, so does Savage Hulk, they can simply hold their breath. But I did have a laugh at you trying to educate me on Thor.
Superboy talking in space is not evidence of him no longer requiring oxygen.
Originally posted by abhilegend
You have this preconceived notion that you can give some random character doing something and reject a specific character doing something but the difference is that the characters you are mentioning don't have as many showings to do that. You try to give the idea that because diana has been seen in space sometimes without a mask, so any time superman is seen in space without mask is the same as her holding breath. The difference is that superman has received many upgrades in which one specifically gave him the ability to breath in space and later it was retconned as him having this ability from start.
I’m not rejecting Superman talking in space. I’m pointing out that it does not in itself prove that he no longer requires oxygen.
Wonder Woman, Classic Thor, Hulk, Aquaman, Sif, Donna Troy, Supergirl, Martians, Pre-Loeb Superman etc. are able to talk or survive in space because they can hold their breath. This does not automatically mean that Superman holds his breath while in space, but it does mean that him talking in space or appearing in space is not itself evidence that he no longer requires oxygen. This is a very simple concept, why do you have trouble understanding?
If Superman has a panel saying that he no longer requires air then he doesn’t, but you’d need something like that or some sort of additional evidence to support your stance. Not just talking in space.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Then its crap writing like this one
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/elisha_carmen/dc/jla-owaw.jpgFlash and kyle floating in space without any protection tells us how much the writer knows about space
I don’t care if you think its crap writing, the scan you posted doesn’t magically negate the scene I’m referring to. On top of that, Jurgens isn’t the only writer to have a scene of that nature with pre-Loeb era Superman.
By the sheer number of examples I’ve posted or can post, do you not think it’s possible that just maybe, talking in space is not evidence of no longer requiring oxygen?
The fact that on more than one occasion, a writer has had a character talk in space while requiring oxygen under their pen should in itself make you reconsider your stance.
Originally posted by abhilegend
I know that character hold their breath in space and just relying on some random scan to prove that a character can breath in space is stupid but to rely on a random character's ability to "talk" in space to disprove a character's established powers is also wrong.
Talk about tunnel vision, does everything revolve around people trying to discredit Superman with you? It’s like your motto.
Pointing out your incredibly flawed logic doesn’t mean I’m trying to prove Superman no longer requires air.
If the only evidence you have of Superman no longer requiring oxygen is him talking in space, then yes, it’s not conclusive evidence and until some additional evidence is provided, he most likely does require it in some form (Not including the Cornell scene as any type of support).
Originally posted by abhilegend
So what are you arguing here, if superman needs air to survive so we would've to ignore a LOT of his showings in the past decade or we can say that most of time he doesn't need air but there are exceptions where he needed air to survive. Chose oneYeah the same.
Read the following words very carefully: I'm not out to prove that Superman definitely needs oxygen, I'm pointing out how incredibly flawed it is to use the lack of an apparatus or talking in space as evidence for him not needing it.
Based on what writers and comics have shown us over the years, talking in space is not grounds for automatically assuming a character no longer needs oxygen. If you understand this, then you can argue that Superman shoots rainbows out of his nipples, I wouldn’t care.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Really? Because it seems you’re just trying to reach a word quota instead of trying to understand what I’ve been posting and replying to it.
I understand it completely, your stance is "whatever proof if one character is seen doing something similar to another character, they are using the same ability, official stand and character continuity be damned". I just don't buy it.
That may or may not be evidence of Superman no longer requiring oxygen (The issue of distance suggests that oxygen is still needed by some amount) but it’s completely irrelevant. Let’s assume for a minute that it without a doubt does prove that Superman no longer requires oxygen, it still doesn’t change my main argument one bit.
Ok, some progress. Carry on.
I don’t give a shit whether Superman needs oxygen or not. I am simply addressing the fallacious reasoning you’re using. Classic Thor needs air, so does Savage Hulk, they can simply hold their breath. But I did have a laugh at you trying to educate me on Thor.
I don't give a shit whatever you think about this topic, I've read enough comics to know what's character's capable of. The scan I showed you isn't of classic thor and savage hulk didn't go to fight hiro-kala either. Who cares what two wildly variable silver age characters could do, I am talking about recent protrayals.
Superboy talking in space is not evidence of him no longer requiring oxygen.
You repeating that ad-nauseam doesn't change the facts.
I’m not rejecting Superman talking in space. I’m pointing out that it does not in itself prove that he no longer requires oxygen.
And? You are just repeating yourself? What would it take you to believe that he may no longer require oxygen in majority of his portrayals in the last decade? Talking casually on the surface of sun, surviving years in the core of earth, diving through a red sun etc?
Wonder Woman, Classic Thor, Hulk, Aquaman, Sif, Donna Troy, Supergirl, Martians, Pre-Loeb Superman etc. are able to talk or survive in space because they can hold their breath. This does not automatically mean that Superman holds his breath while in space, but it does mean that him talking in space or appearing in space is not itself evidence that he no longer requires oxygen. This is a very simple concept, why do you have trouble understanding?
This automatically doesn't mean that we would discard every showing of superman either. I understand this concept but you are using a very broad generalization to suit your needs. You have to do more than using other characters' rare and contradictory showings to invalidate a character's majority of showings. Otherwise I can say that anyone can wield mjolnir in space because rulk did it and ignore all other showings contradictory showings.
If Superman has a panel saying that he no longer requires air then he doesn’t, but you’d need something like that or some sort of additional evidence to support your stance. Not just talking in space.
I doubt that would ever be shown in the comics or even it would be able to end this conversation as different writers portray characters differently. You need more than your opinion and some other character's rare showings to disprove it too.
I don’t care if you think its crap writing, the scan you posted doesn’t magically negate the scene I’m referring to. On top of that, Jurgens isn’t the only writer to have a scene of that nature with pre-Loeb era Superman.
I don't know what are you talking about but if it contradicts a character's majority of portrayals, its called PIS here or should we start basing surfer's strenth by armbar incident or firelord's power by his defeat at the hand of spidey? Huh, what are you talking about?
By the sheer number of examples I’ve posted or can post, do you not think it’s possible that just maybe, talking in space is not evidence of no longer requiring oxygen?
I know and understand that we can't say that a character doesn't need to breath if he talks in space but don't you think that just maybe you're using a very broad generalization that using different characters' showings to discard a character's official power?
The fact that on more than one occasion, a writer has had a character talk in space while requiring oxygen under their pen should in itself make you reconsider your stance.
I've checked my stance thoroughly, but thanks for reminding me. When these characters talk casually on the surface of a sun and before an official power-upgrade couldn't survive space without holding their breath, Call me.
Talk about tunnel vision, does everything revolve around people trying to discredit Superman with you? It’s like your motto.
No, only when people start discarding what he's done in comics.
Pointing out your incredibly flawed logic doesn’t mean I’m trying to prove Superman no longer requires air.
Are you done pointing my "incredibly flawed" logic? Shall we carry on?
If the only evidence you have of Superman no longer requiring oxygen is him talking in space, then yes, it’s not conclusive evidence and until some additional evidence is provided, he most likely does require it in some form (Not including the Cornell scene as any type of support).
Yes, his formal training. What proof do you have other than your "hypothetical every character must use the same ability doing same feats". I don't have to prove a negative.
Read the following words very carefully: I'm not out to prove that Superman definitely needs oxygen, I'm pointing out how incredibly flawed it is to use the lack of an apparatus or talking in space as evidence for him not needing it.
Thank you for reminding to read very carefully, you've already done it what every post in this thread against me. Carry on.
Based on what writers and comics have shown us over the years, talking in space is not grounds for automatically assuming a character no longer needs oxygen. If you understand this, then you can argue that Superman shoots rainbows out of his nipples, I wouldn’t care.
Lulz, the same thing you're parroting since your post one, it doesn't automatically invalidate a specific charcter's majority of showings. Post something else other than just your interpretation and contradictory showings of totally different characters to disprove something, okay.
