Ah... ugh.
Watchmen's one of my favorite books. A lot of people think it's overrated or just OK, and that's cool, but I personally feel it really deserves all the cred it gets. I don't really want them to touch the characters, but I guess that won't ruin the integrity of the original book, and will allow people who have wanted to explore those characters further a chance to do so... I guess.
Originally posted by Digi
Well, be clear, Flashpoint was a wholesale reboot. They rearranged histories and details of basically everyone, whether they're admitting it or not. The very fact that they're surrounded by a different universe means that much has changed with them. And anything between the crises has been stripped from most characters explicitly.I agree with you on the earlier stuff though. Even the middle crisis was tame in terms of retcons and changes. Change is often needed, so it wasn't a horrible move. I wonder if/when Marvel will follow suit because they see DC's sales.
Huh?
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Marvel is pretty easy to jump into, as compared to DC prior to the reboot (though I personally had no problems, really). The X-Men are really the only aspect of the Marvel U that might need tweaking, but Spider-Man's canon is pretty straight forward, One More Day/Brand New Day included. Avengers canon is also pretty streamlined, and considering how the Avengers have been pushed as the cornerstone of the Marvel U for years and how much bigger they're getting, I can't see Marvel undoing all that history in an attempt to attract more fans.
X-Men is straight ****ed up in general.
Originally posted by Existere
Ah... ugh.Watchmen's one of my favorite books. A lot of people think it's overrated or just OK, and that's cool, but I personally feel it really deserves all the cred it gets. I don't really want them to touch the characters, but I guess that won't ruin the integrity of the original book, and will allow people who have wanted to explore those characters further a chance to do so... I guess.
I think a lot of it has to do with Watchmen being an exploration of the medium and a commentary on superheroes and politics of an era that is really no longer relevant. Watchmen was the a product of the time it was created in, but the comic book industry and superheros have moved on since then... largely because books like Watchman (and TDKR, Maus and Born Again... really anything from '86) elevated the medium and opened the door for change. Watchmen is a seminal book, and maybe on of the most important comics ever created, but removed from the context of it's creation I can see why it might not read like anything special.
That's one of the reasons I'm sceptically about this project. What do these creative teams have to say about the comic book medium or politics that requires the Watchman brand? My guess is not much and this is just a vehicle to tell character driven stories where the plot is largely inconsequential.
Alan Moore should grow up
George Lucas gets flak for being terrible and retroactively changing things on a whim which in turn negatively impact the original story. Him continuing Star Wars isn't the problem, the problem is that he frequently makes unnecessary changes to the original trilogy and the prequels were terrible. If his stories were good no one would care. Everyone was pumped for Phantom Menace... and then we saw it.
Originally posted by srankmissingninPretty much. Imo, if you remove Watchmen from the context of the period it was created in, it really doesn't hold up well at all.
I think a lot of it has to do with Watchmen being an exploration of the medium and a commentary on superheroes and politics of an era that is really no longer relevant. Watchmen was the a product of the time it was created in, but the comic book industry and superheros have moved on since then... largely because books like Watchman (and TDKR, Maus and Born Again... really anything from '86) elevated the medium and opened the door for change. Watchmen is a seminal book, and maybe on of the most important comics ever created, but removed from the context of it's creation I can see why it might not read like anything special.
Frankly, I don't care about Moore's views of society during that time... And I could care even less about reading his comic book portrays of said views. Personally, I see the original Watchmen series as little more than Moore's half-assed way of trying to 'stick it to the man.' A lot of people probably care. I just.... Don't. Never will. That's why I'm excited to see a fresh take on the same characters.
*dodges random objects being thrown*
That's my view as well, and one of the reasons I feel the movie under performed.
Watchmen is a seminal comic book, but it is not a story that transcends medium or the era it was created in. I can appreciate Watchmen did for the medium in the context of the period it was created and the issue it address, but the fact is Watchmen isn't timeless tale; from a political and even a pure comic history stand point it's intrinsically tied to a time that is long gone... and that I am too young to remember.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI guess I don't entirely agree, but I won't argue that decades later, Watchmen is removed from the political and industry context that inspired it. I still love the story telling for what it is, but to each his own.
I think a lot of it has to do with Watchmen being an exploration of the medium and a commentary on superheroes and politics of an era that is really no longer relevant. Watchmen was the a product of the time it was created in, but the comic book industry and superheros have moved on since then... largely because books like Watchman (and TDKR, Maus and Born Again... really anything from '86) elevated the medium and opened the door for change. Watchmen is a seminal book, and maybe on of the most important comics ever created, but removed from the context of it's creation I can see why it might not read like anything special.
Yeah, the storytelling, specially the visuals by Gibbons are an excellent example of how to comunicate in the media. I understand that by itself it won't make you love the book, because the context and the themes are still what they are, but there are elements from the narrative that still hold themselves quite well.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
George Lucas gets flak for being terrible and retroactively changing things on a whim which in turn negatively impact the original story. Him continuing Star Wars isn't the problem, the problem is that he frequently makes unnecessary changes to the original trilogy and the prequels were terrible. If his stories were good no one would care. Everyone was pumped for Phantom Menace... and then we saw it.
...Again: George Lucas owns Star Wars. He has the right to do with it what he wants, no matter what some fans may claim. The three prequels combined for $2.5 billion worldwide, but a small minority of fans & media have created the perception no one liked them, because they've been screaming like infants since the Special Editions in 1997.
Watchmen is as seminal a comic as The Dark Knight Returns was in that same year of 1986. While I was glad a movie did get made, I sympathize with Alan Moore's feeling of just leave enough alone, already.
Originally posted by BentleyYeah, and the themes aren't so lost in the comic world. As political commentary and as a significant mark in the low/high art battle, sure, Watchmen may no longer hold the impact that it once did. As a deconstruction of super heroes and the ideals that bind them, I still feel pretty connected to what Moore's breaking down. I guess I'm also just a fan of Moore's particular style with which he layers his plots and the vehicles that he uses to discuss them. I still find it pretty cool, and I'm not old enough to place it within a particular political or industry context.
Yeah, the storytelling, specially the visuals by Gibbons are an excellent example of how to comunicate in the media. I understand that by itself it won't make you love the book, because the context and the themes are still what they are, but there are elements from the narrative that still hold themselves quite well.
Meh, to each his own.
Originally posted by roughrider
...Again: George Lucas owns Star Wars. He has the right to do with it what he wants, no matter what some fans may claim. The three prequels combined for $2.5 billion worldwide, but a small minority of fans & media have created the perception no one liked them, because they've been screaming like infants since the Special Editions in 1997.Watchmen is as seminal a comic as The Dark Knight Returns was in that same year of 1986. While I was glad a movie did get made, I sympathize with Alan Moore's feeling of just leave enough alone, already.
Srank's point stands, though. Lucas didn't just continue Star Wars, he changed, in some places, the very core of the OT, which nobody is really attempting to do with Watchmen.
Lucas gets hounded because he makes negative changes, not because he makes changes.
And I saw Phantom Menace twice in cinemas (though I didn't pay for both trips). I can admit that, even as a life-long Star Wars fan, Phantom Menace is (bar the saber fight), a steaming pile for the most part.
Money is not a reflection of quality.
Originally posted by Bentley
He also has kept the original versions from release in new formats, which is a shame because most of his edits bring nothing to the table and are ugly.
Exactly. The precise reason I didn't buy the Blurays were because he refused to put in the original cuts.
Most people don't realise it, but it's no coincidence that ESB, the best in the series, wasn't directed by Lucas.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Srank's point stands, though. Lucas didn't just continue Star Wars, he changed, in some places, the very core of the OT, which nobody is really attempting to do with Watchmen.Lucas gets hounded because he makes negative changes, not because he makes changes.
Strangely enough, all three prequels are certified fresh by critics on Rotten Tomatoes. So there must be some quality.
To some people, any change in Star Wars equals negative change. That's how closed their minds are.
I could complain about a few changes he did, but overall I liked what he brought to the film with all the extra CG effects. He's helped create a new generation of fans as a result. And the story is fully intact; I don't subscribe to the notion he's changed the core of the story at all. If he's done anything by adding the prequels, it's that he's made it Anakin/Darth Vader's story overall, and not Luke's in particular.
But we're not going to settle this argument here. It's become as polarized as the Israeli-Palestinian debate.
And does George Lucas lose sleep over these things? He has fun with his fans obsessions!