You can't verify Kun without his amulets because once he becomes Sith, he always has them. And they exponentially increase his rage and Force power, which means that if he wishes to spam blasts or unleash Dark Side techniques, he's more likely to breach Revan's infamous resistance than say, a Sith who doesn't benefit from this boost.
So in a Force contest, I lean more towards Kun. In sabers, both are master swordsmen, and as we saw with Ulic neither could claim the advantage, so would this probably be the case here.
Revan's hope is that Kun is too arrogant and allows himself to be outmaneuvered. Then again, when Kun was done toying with Vodo, he obliterated the Jedi duelist in a split second, so I dunno. Kun and Revan could both benefit from a lot more exposure.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You can't verify Kun without his amulets because once he becomes Sith, he always has them. And they exponentially increase his rage and Force power, which means that if he wishes to spam blasts or unleash Dark Side techniques, he's more likely to breach Revan's infamous resistance than say, a Sith who doesn't benefit from this boost.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 1: Exar with Amulets
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 2: Without
In this case, Kun's only chance is in a lightsaber duel. However, Revan is no pushover with a lightsaber either.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I doubt he can breach Revan' infamous resistance. Kun is no Vitiate.
The emphasis here is on the 'hundreds of thousands of times' that Kun's rage is multiplied, which enables him to unleash powerful energies. This same amulet, both when worn by Kun and Sadow, glows when the Force it used. The implication is that it fuels and amplifies his Force powers. Even if you consider stock Kun as being slightly above average in Force power (which is an extremely conservative position), his power/rage being multiplied exponentially proves a problem for his opponents. Remember, the Dark Side is empowered by rage; we see it in Anakin, we see it in Kun, Malgus, Vitiate, Sidious, and more.
So I find your conviction, in light of the evidence, surprising.
In this case, Kun's only chance is in a lightsaber duel. However, Revan is no pushover with a lightsaber either.
See above. Both are master lightsaber duelist, and since neither is really well represented in live media, the best conclusion we can reach is that it could go either way. Ulic, although a weakling in the Force compared to amulet-amped Kun, was able to stalemate the Dark Lord with incredible natural fencing talent. It's logical to believe that Revan is also incredibly talented in this field; his victory over Malak in extremely unfavorable settings proves this. But there's no neutral bar to measure both parties, and no live action to better analyze their defenses and relative speeds.
As for the Force, Kun has demonstrated being peerless in his own era. Jedi Masters and Knights all fell before him. An ability specifically used to cut off Force users from the Force itself (entitled 'Wall of Light'😉 only serves to push him back and annoy him. His suspension of the Senate and mental domination of the chancellor was incredibly impressive as a casual showing of power, and the way in which he overpowered Vodo's staff (which the old Jedi made 'stronger than a lightsaber' in resistance via the Force itself) speaks either of superior strength, or an application of the Force which can easily overpower others.
And that's not even touching some of the things he did as a mere spirit after centuries and centuries in madness and isolation.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
adult image hostingThe emphasis here is on the 'hundreds of thousands of times' that Kun's rage is multiplied, which enables him to unleash powerful energies. This same amulet, both when worn by Kun and Sadow, glows when the Force it used. The implication is that it fuels and amplifies his Force powers.
Point is that how effective Kun's energies would be against Revan?
It took a person of DE Sidious' calibre to overwhelm the defenses of Revan (i.e. Vitiate).
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even if you consider stock Kun as being slightly above average in Force power (which is an extremely conservative position), his power/rage being multiplied exponentially proves a problem for his opponents. Remember, the Dark Side is empowered by rage; we see it in Anakin, we see it in Kun, Malgus, Vitiate, Sidious, and more.
Revan could call upon both the Light and Dark sides of the Force simultaneously to gather immense power; the Force in its purest form. In case of Vitiate, Revan did not channel such power against him because he was under his telepathic assault and wanted to break free ASAP.
In case of Kun, Revan would have no trouble in channeling such power against him. Now this would be interesting because the author did not ruled out this possibility.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So I find your conviction, in light of the evidence, surprising.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Both are master lightsaber duelist, and since neither is really well represented in live media, the best conclusion we can reach is that it could go either way. Ulic, although a weakling in the Force compared to amulet-amped Kun, was able to stalemate the Dark Lord with incredible natural fencing talent. It's logical to believe that Revan is also incredibly talented in this field; his victory over Malak in extremely unfavorable settings proves this. But there's no neutral bar to measure both parties, and no live action to better analyze their defenses and relative speeds.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As for the Force, Kun has demonstrated being peerless in his own era. Jedi Masters and Knights all fell before him. An ability specifically used to cut off Force users from the Force itself (entitled 'Wall of Light'😉 only serves to push him back and annoy him. His suspension of the Senate and mental domination of the chancellor was incredibly impressive as a casual showing of power, and the way in which he overpowered Vodo's staff (which the old Jedi made 'stronger than a lightsaber' in resistance via the Force itself) speaks either of superior strength, or an application of the Force which can easily overpower others.
Kun certainly is very dangerous and strong. However, Revan' command of the Force is exceptional too. Meetra' assessment solidifies this assumption as she has faced some very powerful and dangerous Sith Lords herself and survived. However, she failed against Nyriss and.......... You can get the picture now.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And that's not even touching some of the things he did as a mere spirit after centuries and centuries in madness and isolation.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Let us consider Nyriss here. She could unleash powerful energies without relying on external objects. Her signature move was deadly enough to destroy 'powerful Force-users with their guard up'. But she failed to destroy Revan and got WTFpwned in response. Doesn't this gives you any hint?
Not really. The main reason why this is a concern is because the benchmark for Revan's Force powers chiefly include "overcoming Nyriss' Force lightning". This is extremely impressive. But there's nothing to suggest Nyriss herself is anything more than a Sith Lord of high skill and mastery among Sith, as to say, Kun himself who has the power to exponentially increase his own rage and energy through the amulets. It's a bit of an artificial boost, but it exists nonetheless.
Let's look at it in a simple format:
Nyriss = high level Sith practitioner/master
Kun = above average strength Force user + novice Sith practitioner + amulets which increase his Dark Side connection and power 'hundreds of thousands' of times.
Nyriss != a hundred thousand normal pissed off Kuns. It's difficult to imagine any Force user could match up as well against Kun empowered by his amulets. Again, we assume that his powers are enhanced because the amulet reacts to Force usage, both by Kun and by Sadow in Golden Age of the Sith. The question then becomes "How many Kuns does it take to defeat Revan?" You can't easily answer how much, but you have a great idea of how many he can potentially use... thousands, even to hundreds of thousands which appears to be the threshold of the amulet's boosting powers.
Vitiate is "infinitely more powerful than Nyriss". It stands to reason Kun is similarly well beyond Nyriss' level and very likely to be well beyond Revan's as well, since Revan is unaided.
Point is that how effective Kun's energies would be against Revan?
You should notice that the energy poured from Kun's hands as a result of using the amulet are enough to blow chunks in the walls of the ruin and grow in size as it distances itself from Kun, becoming man-sized and more as it carries on. Whether it's raw kinetic energy or (more likely) concentrated Dark Side energy or both is not easy to claim absolutely. However, the Force storm which Revan absorbs and redirects is noted as being full of "Dark side energy".
Conditional: IF Kun's amulets generate excessive Dark Side energy (which seems entirely reasonable) AND he can use anger to fuel this exponentially (proven) THEN it stands to reason he can simply overcome Revan through superior firepower.
It took a person of DE Sidious' calibre to overwhelm the defenses of Revan (i.e. Vitiate).
You don't think a buffed up Kun is approaching DE Sidious' 'calibre'? He murders Jedi Masters with a wealth more experience than DE Luke with a gesture or a swipe of his blade, ragdolls Jedi Knights with the Force, eliminates Aleema from the equation with a wave of his hand and stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a master swordsman, in a quick duel.
And this is well before he mind****s half of the Jedi Academy in his disembodied form, without the benefit of the amulet since he's a spirit.
Yes, it does. But you are also forgetting that Revan is not restricted to Jedi code either. He is not a pure light side user. He uses the combination of both aspects of the Force.
But it's debatable what bearing this would have on Kun. He's destroyed both Dark and Light side users with his own brute strength in the Force. Freedan Nadd who as a spirit can heal Kun from death, attack Vodo across the galaxy, and cause cave-ins simply through TK was obliterated the second Kun turned his amulet against him. Aleema, raised as a practitioner in Nadd's legacy, removed from combat with a single blast. Odan-Urr, who pioneered the Wall of Light ability in the Great Hyperspace War (where the Jedi essentially hunted much of the Sith on Korriban and Ziost to extinction) could not harm him and died from a gesture.
Again, what has Revan shown to surpass this? Brilliant charisma? Tactical leadership? The -one- feat against Nyriss? Even his battle against Malak was not one-sided; the Sith Lord engaged Revan in an "epic battle" (Drew K's words), meaning that it was a struggle, not a decimation. Do you really think Malak would hold a candle to Kun?
Revan could call upon both the Light and Dark sides of the Force simultaneously to gather immense power; the Force in its purest form. In case of Vitiate, Revan did not channel such power against him because he was under his telepathic assault and wanted to break free ASAP.
No, first using both sides of the Force has only ever demonstrated Revan overcoming Nyriss, whose standing against Kun is entirely questionable. Second, Revan attempted the -same- move against Vitiate, who possesses Force energy gleaned from "thousands" or perhaps even "millions", and was swatted about like a fly.
There's no reason to believe that Revan using his Daoism Level 3 Super Combo is going to defeat Kun who can basically manhandle every Force user in his era without breaking in his armor. Hell, it took the entire Jedi Order (thousands) above Yavin IV all channeling energy into a planetary Wall of Light that burnt large parts of the planet, to simply disrupt his ritual and bind him to Yavin IV. They didn't even cut him off from the Force or kill him.
It has been pointed out in KOTORCG that had Revan been born during Kun's era; he would have been a model Jedi for this period too. The intended message is vague but powerful; Revan may have been the best in this period too. This is what the authors have established in canonical sources for his original time.
There's an important distinction: Revan notes that the title character is the "champion of the Jedi Order", implying that he's the best Jedi of his era. Meetra calls him the most powerful Force user she's ever witnessed (which is an issue because this somehow includes Nihilus but whatever). He's -up- there, I agree. But in Kun's era, once he becomes DLotS, he has no equals. Unlike Revan who could be overcome by Vitiate, battled hard to defeat a buffed Malak, and did not possess the power to free himself from his own cell on Dromund Kaas, Exar Kun pretty much stomps all over the Jedi Order and calls all the shots from the Sith. Even Nadd, who in his time conquered the Onderon/Dxun society and installed a brutal Dark Side regime and dynasty there, could not lift a finger in his own defense.
Again, why do we assume Revan > Kun?
Kun certainly is very dangerous and strong. However, Revan' command of the Force is exceptional too. Meetra' assessment solidifies this assumption as she has faced some very powerful and dangerous Sith Lords herself and survived. However, she failed against Nyriss and.......... You can get the picture now.
Exceptional, but unlikely to be exponentially better than even an above average Force user. Again, Kun's amulets put him on a buffed up tier that Revan hasn't shown similar range and abilities. I think in a saber fight, it's impossible to tell who is better; that's a given. But in Force combat? Kun dominates.
Nyriss != a hundred thousand normal pissed off Kuns. It's difficult to imagine any Force user could match up as well against Kun empowered by his amulets. Again, we assume that his powers are enhanced because the amulet reacts to Force usage, both by Kun and by Sadow in Golden Age of the Sith. The question then becomes "How many Kuns does it take to defeat Revan?" You can't easily answer how much, but you have a great idea of how many he can potentially use... thousands, even to hundreds of thousands which appears to be the threshold of the amulet's boosting powers.
You don't think a buffed up Kun is approaching DE Sidious' 'calibre'? He murders Jedi Masters with a wealth more experience than DE Luke with a gesture or a swipe of his blade, ragdolls Jedi Knights with the Force, eliminates Aleema from the equation with a wave of his hand and stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a master swordsman, in a quick duel.
And this is well before he mind****s half of the Jedi Academy in his disembodied form, without the benefit of the amulet since he's a spirit.
But it's debatable what bearing this would have on Kun. He's destroyed both Dark and Light side users with his own brute strength in the Force. Freedan Nadd who as a spirit can heal Kun from death, attack Vodo across the galaxy, and cause cave-ins simply through TK was obliterated the second Kun turned his amulet against him. Aleema, raised as a practitioner in Nadd's legacy, removed from combat with a single blast. Odan-Urr, who pioneered the Wall of Light ability in the Great Hyperspace War (where the Jedi essentially hunted much of the Sith on Korriban and Ziost to extinction) could not harm him and died from a gesture.
Again, what has Revan shown to surpass this? Brilliant charisma? Tactical leadership? The -one- feat against Nyriss? Even his battle against Malak was not one-sided; the Sith Lord engaged Revan in an "epic battle" (Drew K's words), meaning that it was a struggle, not a decimation. Do you really think Malak would hold a candle to Kun?
No, first using both sides of the Force has only ever demonstrated Revan overcoming Nyriss, whose standing against Kun is entirely questionable. Second, Revan attempted the -same- move against Vitiate, who possesses Force energy gleaned from "thousands" or perhaps even "millions", and was swatted about like a fly.
There's no reason to believe that Revan using his Daoism Level 3 Super Combo is going to defeat Kun who can basically manhandle every Force user in his era without breaking in his armor. Hell, it took the entire Jedi Order (thousands) above Yavin IV all channeling energy into a planetary Wall of Light that burnt large parts of the planet, to simply disrupt his ritual and bind him to Yavin IV. They didn't even cut him off from the Force or kill him.
There's an important distinction: Revan notes that the title character is the "champion of the Jedi Order", implying that he's the best Jedi of his era. Meetra calls him the most powerful Force user she's ever witnessed (which is an issue because this somehow includes Nihilus but whatever). He's -up- there, I agree. But in Kun's era, once he becomes DLotS, he has no equals. Unlike Revan who could be overcome by Vitiate, battled hard to defeat a buffed Malak, and did not possess the power to free himself from his own cell on Dromund Kaas, Exar Kun pretty much stomps all over the Jedi Order and calls all the shots from the Sith. Even Nadd, who in his time conquered the Onderon/Dxun society and installed a brutal Dark Side regime and dynasty there, could not lift a finger in his own defense.
Exceptional, but unlikely to be exponentially better than even an above average Force user. Again, Kun's amulets put him on a buffed up tier that Revan hasn't shown similar range and abilities. I think in a saber fight, it's impossible to tell who is better; that's a given. But in Force combat? Kun dominates. [/B]Assuming the blasts hit Revan, or that they're continuous, or that Revan doesn't mess with Kun's mind ala Vitiate.. Many things have to go right for Kun to win but sure, it's much easier with the amulet.
Odd. Why are you challenging me?
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I have a problem with "a hundred thousand normal pissed off Kuns". If this wasn't hyperbole, then Kun could have simply enraged with the amulet and at the very least, fought back against the wall of light created by a few thousand jedi. A few hundred thousand pissed off Kuns would be vastly more powerful than Vitiate or DE Sidious. Since the most impressive thing Kun demonstrates is a ritual where he silences the senate, it's hard to take that quote seriously.
Is it hyperbolic? Let's look at it again:
The narration explicitly says Kun can feel his rage multiplying, fill in the blanks times here. He becomes aware that it can focus his "Dark Rage" and he can use it as a weapon.
A similar amulet used by King Ommin has "infinite rage" and overcomes Ulic and Arca Jeth.
I'll humor you. The narration is being hyperbolic. So clearly, when they say Vitiate is "infinitely more powerful than Nyriss", he's just slightly above her. Or maybe a few semesters ahead of her, right?
I mean, after all, it's all hyperbole. Maybe the entire Jedi Order was't there over Yavin IV? Perhaps it was like fifty, but the omniscient third person narrator got confused, right?
So tell me... how am I to quantify Kun's anger/power level without the direct quote from the sole source in which the relationship of Kun's power and the amulet's boosting is referenced?
Let me stop you right there. No, I don't think a buffed up Kun approaches DE Sidious. He murders masters with a wealth more experience? Wonderful. How many times in the mythos have we seen a fight where the victor is one with less experience? Not too impressive.
The point is, Exar Kun overcomes Jedi Masters of repute in his era. Jedi Masters with far more experience and knowledge then DE Luke. DE Luke is a reference point for DE Sidious' power; DE Sidious overcame Luke rather quickly early on, and even later Luke needed help to distract and overcome Sidious in turn. Sidious > Luke by a fair margin, right? Well, Kun > every Force user of his era by a fair margin. That's a reference point.
Eliminating Aleema? She's wonderful.. With her illusions...Against non force sensitives. Stalemating Ulic was probably the most impressive thing in that sentence and even then, we have no idea how quick or how long the duel was.
Thanks for dismissing. I appreciate it.
Please list the number of jedi masters Kun mind ****s in your next post.
I never stated Jedi Masters; I said he mind****ed "half of the Academy". Specifically, he had indoctrinated acolytes into his own cult, incinerated a disobedient student, severed Luke from his own body, and it took a combined effort of Luke's spirit, Vodo's spirit, and others to seal him away.
And this is Kun after thousands of years of isolation and madness, and no amulet. So the conclusions are either his knowledge and/or natural strength in the Force was entirely even Luke's, or he's just a chump and everyone in that storyline was of no consequence.
There is nothing indicating that Nadd in his spirit form comes close to Kun or anybody else, in full human form. Granted he did do some damage as a spirit, although from dark side planets. The point is, sticking your amulet through a spirit shouldn't be considered impressive on any level.
You're glossing over surrounding details - Nadd's power as a spirit is greater than many we've seen in the mythos. Even spirits in TOR don't match his level of power (even Lord Kallig expends power by communicating over long distances and manifesting himself). He is a figure of significant Force strength, even deceased. Before the acquisition of the amulet, Nadd dominated Kun. Led him around, caused the cave-in, healed his body, and attacked Vodo across space. (Real quick - name a spirit who has replicated that last feat)
Kun, once he acquires the amulet and defeats the wyrm, casually turns the amulet on Nadd and destroys him utterly. This is an impressive display of power. Whether or not you feel it has bearing (or you have Revan-bias) is irrelevant.
His amulet blasts on aleema are nice, I suppose.
If you recall the context, she unleashed one on him which he shrugged off, and his (which was nowhere near the size of those he used on the wyrms) knocked her out of the area and unconscious.
His defeat of odan-urr, who was never known to be a combatant, is not impressive.
Translation: Vodo, although implied to be a master duelist and the saber instructor of the Jedi Order, who taught Exar Kun who himself turned out to be a MASTER SWORDSMAN, must somehow be unknown and therefore immediately of NO CONSEQUENCE.
Did I nail your dismissal down right?
We don't know the properties of the Wall of light, whether they work against superior force users, whether Kun's amulet provides a defense for such an attack, etc.
No, we DO know how it works. It was perfected on Sith, the same Sith who may have had access to similar boosting amulets and items (or not. That's not really my point). Against Ulic when used by Nomi (who had never before practiced it), the effect was instantaneous and complete. Against Kun by the founder of and perfecter of the ability, it pushed him back, and ... did nothing else.
Whether or not the amulet helps is irrelevant. Sith Lord Kun -always- has his amulets.
But it was star forge powered Malak, not regular Malak. It was also Malak powered by the life essences of many jedi.
Right, but that's the whole point. If Revan can't manhandle a Star Forge buffed Malak (who is fueled by what? Six to eight Jedi total? Also, to use your argument, UNKNOWN Jedi and therefore of NO CONSEQUENCE), why would I assume he can defeat a Sith Lord who has dominated everyone else in his era with ease and conceivably has his "DARK RAGE" boosted on a level well beyond acceptably high enough to crush normal Force users?
Funny how Revan gets excuses but Kun's accomplishments are dismissed or downplayed.
By swatted like a fly do you mean "knocked the emperor on his ass then foolishly decided to try to catch a force storm with his hands like a drunk buffoon"?
Yes. Revan did the same maneuver against Nyriss instantly and won. Against Vitiate, who is well beyond Nyriss' level, he was floored. Kun has every reason to be beyond Nyriss' level. His Dark Rage alone, which fuels Dark Side powers like - surprise! - Force Lightning, is exponentially increased. Even if you want to super "help my bias" downplay it to ten, fifteen times, it's still well beyond what an unaided Force user can accomplish.
Hell, look at the Sith Inquisitor. By having what? Three, four spirits in tow, toss Thanaton about like a handball? And Thanaton uses canonically abilities which kill Force users with a gesture? He uses genuine Force storms on the same level as Nyriss? The guy who keeps Tulak Hord's tablets in his library? Apparently, having a boost can really make or break a match.
I don't recall any force user in his era showing any kind of impressive combat abilities, unless you count making your stick more powerful than a lightsaber. What does that even mean btw? Is Vodo's stick going to break through a light saber? I don't recall that happening in his fight against Kun.
This really really makes me think that STILL, after all these years you haven't read or reread the comics. I don't come here arguing these out of my ass. I review the comics when the debate comes up. Since you don't "recall" stuff happening, I suggest you go find out instead of going "This is all invalid because it doesn't support my pro-Revan argument, also, lol stick saber".
Also, it's very misleading to say that it took the entire jedi order to defeat Kun, rather than how many they decided to use.
You were saying?
Here's the counter to your argument. Revan's era was simply better.
Wow, that's such a good argument. Wish I had thought of that first.
Revan had to also be compared to possibly the greatest force user in the mythos, as well as others from the True Sith Empire. Kun didn't have half the obstacles Revan and his era had. And you're right, Nadd's dark side spirit couldn't do anything when Kun put his amulet through him. Incredibly impressive lol. Not a good comparison.
Compared to the greatest Force user in the mythos? You mean, utterly destroyed at the hands of the greatest Force user in the mythos, who has exponentially more power than any normal Force user? That one? Good comparison, bro!
Also, Kun didn't have any obstacles, because he's that powerful.
Assuming the blasts hit Revan, or that they're continuous, or that Revan doesn't mess with Kun's mind ala Vitiate.. Many things have to go right for Kun to win but sure, it's much easier with the amulet.
Rofl. Mess with Kun's mind ala Vitiate? "I'm going to attack you with a Dark-a-Light side special attack while you're attempting to violate my mind"? That method? Also, man-sized blasts missing Revan? How far away is Revan? In orbit? Kun can apparently spam them while moving to avoid the Sith Wyrm's attacks. Revan's shown extreme proficiency in dodging two spammed lightning bolts after being flattened by TK.
Really, this is your stance? "I like Revan, all your arguments are crap, also random dismissal, lol stick saber"?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'm sorry but Vitiate lost the battledome match against ROTS Sidious. He is certainly not on DE Sidious' calibre. Kun isn't on Vitiate's level either.
Okay, I submit to your greater authority and the authority of the nebulous objective measuring by which you no doubt acquired this knowledge. I acknowledge that RotS Sidious is certainly better than someone who makes Sith Lords who fry people instantly seem inferior, and likewise crushes the champion of the Jedi Order in a direct Force contest without needing to use melee weapons (just like Sidious totally vanquished Yoda without needing to resort to close combat). I fully believe that RotS Sidious is about right where DE Sidious is, including the ability to summon up Force Storms, having about 20+ less years of study of the Force and an older body, and getting disarmed by Mace Windu via a front kick. I also recognize your intentions as totally unbiased against Vitiate and Kun naturally. I'd like to point out at no point have I equated Vitiate; only noted that both Kun and Vitiate are exponentially more powerful than say, Nyriss.
Here's a new drinking game - if you sense sarcasm in my post to you, take a swig. If you're knocked out before it's over, you win.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Meetra calls him the most powerful Force user she's ever witnessed (which is an issue because this somehow includes Nihilus but whatever).
Not that much of an issue imo. Kotor 2 makes it clear that you can't feel Force Wounds well through the Force (absence in the Force yadder yadder), meaning that Meetra isn't in a position to accurately gauge Nihilus' powers.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Eliminating Aleema? She's wonderful.. With her illusions...Against non force sensitives.
IIRC she was able to reduce people to skeletons with Force Blasts, which is pretty powerful.
SM
I also recognize your intentions as totally unbiased against Vitiate and Kun naturally.
SM
Whether or not you feel it has bearing (or you have Revan-bias) is irrelevant.
SM
Even if you want to super "help my bias" downplay it to ten, fifteen times, it's still well beyond what an unaided Force user can accomplish.
You've locked yourself in a glass house with Mizukage and DS, so it would probably be in your best interest to not hurl stones. They could very easily make the argument that you're biased in favor of Kun, based on your own post history, in which case this thread devolves into an unending contest of trying to determine whose bias is greater.
Just let it go and make your case.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Odd. Why are you challenging me?
A similar amulet used by King Ommin has "infinite rage" and overcomes Ulic and Arca Jeth.
I'll humor you. The narration is being hyperbolic. So clearly, when they say Vitiate is "infinitely more powerful than Nyriss", he's just slightly above her. Or maybe a few semesters ahead of her, right?
I mean, after all, it's all hyperbole. Maybe the entire Jedi Order was't there over Yavin IV? Perhaps it was like fifty, but the omniscient third person narrator got confused, right?
So tell me... how am I to quantify Kun's anger/power level without the direct quote from the sole source in which the relationship of Kun's power and the amulet's boosting is referenced?
The point is, Exar Kun overcomes Jedi Masters of repute in his era. Jedi Masters with far more experience and knowledge then DE Luke. DE Luke is a reference point for DE Sidious' power; DE Sidious overcame Luke rather quickly early on, and even later Luke needed help to distract and overcome Sidious in turn. Sidious > Luke by a fair margin, right? Well, Kun > every Force user of his era by a fair margin. That's a reference point.
Thanks for dismissing. I appreciate it.
I never stated Jedi Masters; I said he mind****ed "half of the Academy". Specifically, he had indoctrinated acolytes into his own cult, incinerated a disobedient student, severed Luke from his own body, and it took a combined effort of Luke's spirit, Vodo's spirit, and others to seal him away.
And this is Kun after thousands of years of isolation and madness, and no amulet. So the conclusions are either his knowledge and/or natural strength in the Force was entirely even Luke's, or he's just a chump and everyone in that storyline was of no consequence.
You're glossing over surrounding details - Nadd's power as a spirit is greater than many we've seen in the mythos. Even spirits in TOR don't match his level of power (even Lord Kallig expends power by communicating over long distances and manifesting himself). He is a figure of significant Force strength, even deceased. Before the acquisition of the amulet, Nadd dominated Kun. Led him around, caused the cave-in, healed his body, and attacked Vodo across space. (Real quick - name a spirit who has replicated that last feat)
Kun, once he acquires the amulet and defeats the wyrm, casually turns the amulet on Nadd and destroys him utterly. This is an impressive display of power. Whether or not you feel it has bearing (or you have Revan-bias) is irrelevant.
If you recall the context, she unleashed one on him which he shrugged off, and his (which was nowhere near the size of those he used on the wyrms) knocked her out of the area and unconscious.
Translation: Vodo, although implied to be a master duelist and the saber instructor of the Jedi Order, who taught Exar Kun who himself turned out to be a MASTER SWORDSMAN, must somehow be unknown and therefore immediately of NO CONSEQUENCE.Did I nail your dismissal down right?
No, we DO know how it works. It was perfected on Sith, the same Sith who may have had access to similar boosting amulets and items (or not. That's not really my point). Against Ulic when used by Nomi (who had never before practiced it), the effect was instantaneous and complete. Against Kun by the founder of and perfecter of the ability, it pushed him back, and ... did nothing else.
Right, but that's the whole point. If Revan can't manhandle a Star Forge buffed Malak (who is fueled by what? Six to eight Jedi total? Also, to use your argument, UNKNOWN Jedi and therefore of NO CONSEQUENCE), why would I assume he can defeat a Sith Lord who has dominated everyone else in his era with ease and conceivably has his "DARK RAGE" boosted on a level well beyond acceptably high enough to crush normal Force users?
Funny how Revan gets excuses but Kun's accomplishments are dismissed or downplayed.
Yes. Revan did the same maneuver against Nyriss instantly and won. Against Vitiate, who is well beyond Nyriss' level, he was floored. Kun has every reason to be beyond Nyriss' level. His Dark Rage alone, which fuels Dark Side powers like - surprise! - Force Lightning, is exponentially increased. Even if you want to super "help my bias" downplay it to ten, fifteen times, it's still well beyond what an unaided Force user can accomplish.
Hell, look at the Sith Inquisitor. By having what? Three, four spirits in tow, toss Thanaton about like a handball? And Thanaton uses canonically abilities which kill Force users with a gesture? He uses genuine Force storms on the same level as Nyriss? The guy who keeps Tulak Hord's tablets in his library? Apparently, having a boost can really make or break a match.
This really really makes me think that STILL, after all these years you haven't read or reread the comics. I don't come here arguing these out of my !@#$%^&*. I review the comics when the debate comes up. Since you don't "recall" stuff happening, I suggest you go find out instead of going "This is all invalid because it doesn't support my pro-Revan argument, also, lol stick saber".
You were saying?
Wow, that's such a good argument. Wish I had thought of that first.
Compared to the greatest Force user in the mythos? You mean, utterly destroyed at the hands of the greatest Force user in the mythos, who has exponentially more power than any normal Force user? That one? Good comparison, bro!
Also, Kun didn't have any obstacles, because he's that powerful.
Rofl. Mess with Kun's mind ala Vitiate? "I'm going to attack you with a Dark-a-Light side special attack while you're attempting to violate my mind"? That method? Also, man-sized blasts missing Revan? How far away is Revan? In orbit? Kun can apparently spam them while moving to avoid the Sith Wyrm's attacks. Revan's shown extreme proficiency in dodging two spammed lightning bolts after being flattened by TK.
Really, this is your stance? "I like Revan, all your arguments are crap, also random dismissal, lol stick saber"? [/B]
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
You've locked yourself in a glass house with Mizukage and DS, so it would probably be in your best interest to not hurl stones. They could very easily make the argument that you're biased in favor of Kun, based on your own post history, in which case this thread devolves into an unending contest of trying to determine whose bias is greater.Just let it go and make your case.
Didn't you agree not to bring that up anymore?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Not really. The main reason why this is a concern is because the benchmark for Revan's Force powers chiefly include "overcoming Nyriss' Force lightning". This is extremely impressive. But there's nothing to suggest Nyriss herself is anything more than a Sith Lord of high skill and mastery among Sith, as to say, Kun himself who has the power to exponentially increase his own rage and energy through the amulets. It's a bit of an artificial boost, but it exists nonetheless.
The blasts unleashed by Kun, with aid of amulet, were strong enough to damage stone and kill Massassi on contact. These feats, while being impressive, are against defenseless objects and beings, and do not prove the assumption that the blasts (in question) would be effective against elite Force-users who specialize in countering energy based attacks.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Let's look at it in a simple format:Nyriss = high level Sith practitioner/master
Kun = above average strength Force user + novice Sith practitioner + amulets which increase his Dark Side connection and power 'hundreds of thousands' of times.Nyriss != a hundred thousand normal pissed off Kuns. It's difficult to imagine any Force user could match up as well against Kun empowered by his amulets. Again, we assume that his powers are enhanced because the amulet reacts to Force usage, both by Kun and by Sadow in Golden Age of the Sith. The question then becomes "How many Kuns does it take to defeat Revan?" You can't easily answer how much, but you have a great idea of how many he can potentially use... thousands, even to hundreds of thousands which appears to be the threshold of the amulet's boosting powers.
The amulet grants Kun the capability to perform feats that would be possible through great command of the dark side otherwise.
The amulet provided a shortcut to great power, which otherwise would require years of study of the dark side to accomplish. Ancient Sith Lords had a penchant for these devices. Kun followed similar route.
However, with passage of time; Sith began to reduce their dependency upon the amulets and other devices to gain access to great power. They began to focus on their command of the Force at personal capacity instead.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vitiate is "infinitely more powerful than Nyriss". It stands to reason Kun is similarly well beyond Nyriss' level and very likely to be well beyond Revan's as well, since Revan is unaided.
Even Nyriss had superior command of the dark side in comparison to Kun. The latter depended upon amulet to perform great feats of the dark side. But we need a concrete example of effectiveness of Kun's amulet backed blasts against elite Force-users who specialize in countering energy based attacks.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You should notice that the energy poured from Kun's hands as a result of using the amulet are enough to blow chunks in the walls of the ruin and grow in size as it distances itself from Kun, becoming man-sized and more as it carries on. Whether it's raw kinetic energy or (more likely) concentrated Dark Side energy or both is not easy to claim absolutely. However, the Force storm which Revan absorbs and redirects is noted as being full of "Dark side energy".
Elite Force-users can muster up very effective defenses through the Force. Even a lightsaber strike can be blocked by such defenses. The lightsaber is lethal enough to cut through duracrete and durasteel objects with relative ease.
Therefore, the lightsaber based analogy should give you a hint that you have to establish more convincing evidence of effectiveness of Kun' amulet backed blasts against elite Force-users who specialize in countering energy based attacks.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Conditional: IF Kun's amulets generate excessive Dark Side energy (which seems entirely reasonable) AND he can use anger to fuel this exponentially (proven) THEN it stands to reason he can simply overcome Revan through superior firepower.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You don't think a buffed up Kun is approaching DE Sidious' 'calibre'?
During PT period, Sidious send Yoda to retreat.
During OT period, Sidious stopped Galen.
During DE period, Sidious was on a whole new level.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He murders Jedi Masters with a wealth more experience than DE Luke with a gesture or a swipe of his blade
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
ragdolls Jedi Knights with the Force, eliminates Aleema from the equation with a wave of his hand and stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a master swordsman, in a quick duel.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And this is well before he mind****s half of the Jedi Academy in his disembodied form, without the benefit of the amulet since he's a spirit.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But it's debatable what bearing this would have on Kun. He's destroyed both Dark and Light side users with his own brute strength in the Force. Freedan Nadd who as a spirit can heal Kun from death, attack Vodo across the galaxy, and cause cave-ins simply through TK was obliterated the second Kun turned his amulet against him.
No matter how dangerous a spirit is, it can also be contained and destroyed by using certain Force based techniques and devices.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Aleema, raised as a practitioner in Nadd's legacy, removed from combat with a single blast.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Odan-Urr, who pioneered the Wall of Light ability in the Great Hyperspace War (where the Jedi essentially hunted much of the Sith on Korriban and Ziost to extinction) could not harm him and died from a gesture.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, what has Revan shown to surpass this? Brilliant charisma? Tactical leadership? The -one- feat against Nyriss? Even his battle against Malak was not one-sided; the Sith Lord engaged Revan in an "epic battle" (Drew K's words), meaning that it was a struggle, not a decimation. Do you really think Malak would hold a candle to Kun?
Nyriss alone was strong enough to destroy any prominent opponent of Kun without aid. She tooled Scourge and Jedi Exile simultaneously, my friend. Now should I delve in to the history of both Scourge and Exile to explain to you that how good they each were on individual basis? What are you smoking?
And Malak was heavily prepared for battle on the Star Forge. He made special arrangements to last much longer then he normally would. Malak was 'nearly unstoppable' during that time. It was not a fair contest. Again, what are you smoking?
Even during normal conditions, Malak was no ordinary individual. He became very strong during his reign as the DLOTS. He was strong enough to lead a whole Sith Empire with great efficiency. Do the math.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, first using both sides of the Force has only ever demonstrated Revan overcoming Nyriss, whose standing against Kun is entirely questionable.
2. Kun have not demonstrated the capability to block overwhelming energy based attacks. Without amulet, Kun stands no chance against her.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Second, Revan attempted the -same- move against Vitiate, who possesses Force energy gleaned from "thousands" or perhaps even "millions", and was swatted about like a fly.
Vitiate floored 4 powerful Jedi simultaneously with his FLS. One of them was a 'champion of the light'. Does this gives you any hint?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's no reason to believe that Revan using his Daoism Level 3 Super Combo is going to defeat Kun who can basically manhandle every Force user in his era without breaking in his armor.
You first need to establish that Kun can overcome Revan' defenses and withstand his Force powers.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hell, it took the entire Jedi Order (thousands) above Yavin IV all channeling energy into a planetary Wall of Light that burnt large parts of the planet, to simply disrupt his ritual and bind him to Yavin IV. They didn't even cut him off from the Force or kill him.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's an important distinction: Revan notes that the title character is the "champion of the Jedi Order", implying that he's the best Jedi of his era. Meetra calls him the most powerful Force user she's ever witnessed (which is an issue because this somehow includes Nihilus but whatever). He's -up- there, I agree.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But in Kun's era, once he becomes DLotS, he has no equals.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Unlike Revan who could be overcome by Vitiate, battled hard to defeat a buffed Malak,
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and did not possess the power to free himself from his own cell on Dromund Kaas,
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Exar Kun pretty much stomps all over the Jedi Order and calls all the shots from the Sith.
And Kun was lucky that he never faced Vitiate, otherwise the latter would have made him his b*t*h.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even Nadd, who in his time conquered the Onderon/Dxun society and installed a brutal Dark Side regime and dynasty there, could not lift a finger in his own defense.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, why do we assume Revan > Kun?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Exceptional, but unlikely to be exponentially better than even an above average Force user.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, Kun's amulets put him on a buffed up tier that Revan hasn't shown similar range and abilities. I think in a saber fight, it's impossible to tell who is better; that's a given. But in Force combat? Kun dominates.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Okay, I submit to your greater authority and the authority of the nebulous objective measuring by which you no doubt acquired this knowledge. I acknowledge that RotS Sidious is certainly better than someone who makes Sith Lords who fry people instantly seem inferior, and likewise crushes the champion of the Jedi Order in a direct Force contest without needing to use melee weapons (just like Sidious totally vanquished Yoda without needing to resort to close combat). I fully believe that RotS Sidious is about right where DE Sidious is, including the ability to summon up Force Storms, having about 20+ less years of study of the Force and an older body, and getting disarmed by Mace Windu via a front kick. I also recognize your intentions as totally unbiased against Vitiate and Kun naturally. I'd like to point out at no point have I equated Vitiate; only noted that both Kun and Vitiate are exponentially more powerful than say, Nyriss.Here's a new drinking game - if you sense sarcasm in my post to you, take a swig. If you're knocked out before it's over, you win.