Punisher vs Gotham

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I think one of the mastermind types would eventually figure out someone out there wants them dead and would see them removed from the picture, but by the time said plan was put into motion, I think Frank would have either A.) dealt way too much damage to the criminal infrastructure, or B.) Prepared for a long and bloody campaign against psychotics. Frank's horrendously underrated when it comes to getting to people and is often stopped due to plot. Castle nearly killing Osborn and getting frighteningly close to do it during Dark Reign was one such example. It took Sentry's presence to stop him, and even then, Castle did great for being surprised.

All things being equal and people being in character, I really do see Frank planning a long and drawn out war, likely months, if not more, in the waiting as he gets all the intel he needs. Naturally the involvement of Batman complicates this to a great deal, but assuming Batman doesn't interfere and stop Frank - which is doubtful - I really do think that Frank would have cleaned up a lot of the crime bosses/families in Gotham and likely taken out a few of the Arkham inmates, too. To that end, I think Frank's biggest problem is dealing with the Bat himself.

Greg Rucka would likely make this an epic cross over, however unlikely as it would be to happen.

Originally posted by Juntai
Well, I wasn't including Batman and the Bat Family, because in that case Frank straight up loses. 😉

I agree. Per the OP, I initially assumed it was Frank just dropped into Gotham, but without Batman present to stop him, but upon thinking about it, I'm not sure if that was the intent.

If, however, Batman isn't stopping him or is otherwise indisposed, I'm thinking that outside of the handful bonafide metahumans present in Gotham, a good deal of the criminal element in Gotham is going to get removed with the proper application of bullets. Joker will probably exercise caution once wind gets out of a vigilante killing criminals, assuming that he doesn't let his ego get the better of him and doesn't place himself in a situation where Frank could just blow his face off. Riddler would likely try to similarly lay low after realizing that Frank isn't going to play his games and would rather just kill him. Harvey will likely die regardless.

The real problem kicks in when they begin using civilian casualties to get back at Frank. In which case, it's likely going to escalate into even more mayhem.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I dont know man, jason seem to do quite fine when he took over as batman.

I think you very much underestimate just how smart and tactical punisher is. And he not gunna play games he just gunna track them down and kill them.

How would Penguin runs circles around Punisher?

Deadshot is a poors mans bullseye who Punisher has taken it to and beaten.

Me being one.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b]Yes. But when Dick took over as Batman. He was doing it AS BATMAN! He used all the years fo training that the BATMAN tought him to use.

And I think the penguin who has been called the NAPOLEON OF CRIME is capable of "running circles" around Punny because he IS GOD DAMN ****ING SMART!
And it has been proven that Cobbelpot knows about about tactics to.
And just because some people think that "HE GONNA SHOOT EM WIT A BIG GUN" is a brilliant tactic I can think of a few who might disagree.

Me being one. [/B]

The thing is, Frank is smart, too. Criminally underrated in that department, imo.

He has military training on top of everything else he learned when dealing with Marvel New York and fighting crime across the globe. I wouldn't back Cobblepot against Castle if the two were waging an urban war against one another.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... seriously? Again with this?

Again with your strawman? Ok got it. However I did state that Kristoff was comparable (but most likely inferior being a clone) to original Doom that was incorrect, but he does seem good enough to give Reed some trouble.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The thing is, Frank is smart, too. Criminally underrated in that department, imo.

He has military training on top of everything else he learned when dealing with Marvel New York and fighting crime across the globe. I wouldn't back Cobblepot against Castle if the two were waging an urban war against one another.

That and guns don't really seem to get used in gotham all that much when compared to the Punishers.

Back to the thread. To be quite honest with you Punisher could do better than Batman, not because hes smarter but because hes more ruthless. None of the villains have got anything that Punisher hasn't faced before. Ultimately Joker is overated and not invinvible, when you got people like Jean Paul Valley psyching him out by taking the piss out of his hairstyle and Barbara and Jason exploiting his weakness (question or affect anything to do with his insanity) Punisher could outsmart him.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b]I wouldn't bet on cobblepot either if they were doing some kind of silly high noon showdown either.
And I will admit that I havn't read a great deal of Punisher books either but his main tactic seems to be just walk in and shoot everything most of the time.
And other then Jigsaw I can't think if any other Punisher bad guys to really make any kind of referance with to stack up against some of the bat villians.

That and guns don't really seem to get used in gotham all that much when compared to the Punishers. [/B]

In a one on one confrontation, obviously Cobblepot gets riddled with bulletholes, but even in a campaign consisting of him directing his criminal empire against Frank and Frank alone, I wouldn't bet on him. Castle's too good for that.

He usually shoots up the place if its the best and most straight forward tactic, especially if he's dealing with random gangbangers or thugs. Against hardened enemies such as mafia hitmen or mercs, he has used all sorts of tactics from sniping, sabotaging, guerrilla warfare, demolitions, etc. One such villain to use as a reference point would be Kingpin, whom Frank has taken it to before.

A popular misconception is that Punisher is just a vigilante with guns who shoots people dead. Past the surface, you find out that he's really a highly trained former soldier who's more than capable of holding his own with the best of them.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
In a one on one confrontation, obviously Cobblepot gets riddled with bulletholes, but even in a campaign consisting of him directing his criminal empire against Frank and Frank alone, I wouldn't bet on him. Castle's too good for that.

He usually shoots up the place if its the best and most straight forward tactic, especially if he's dealing with random gangbangers or thugs. Against hardened enemies such as mafia hitmen or mercs, he has used all sorts of tactics from sniping, sabotaging, guerrilla warfare, demolitions, etc. One such villain to use as a reference point would be Kingpin, whom Frank has taken it to before.

A popular misconception is that Punisher is just a vigilante with guns who shoots people dead. Past the surface, you find out that he's really a highly trained former soldier who's more than capable of holding his own with the best of them.

It's not just that see what it said about Punisher in WBF "I make playing dirty look good", also see the comparison of tactics between Cap and Punisher. The vietnam war made him dirty and ruthless (Greg may have retconned it to desert storm ****ing hope not).

Originally posted by Deadline
It's not just that see what it said about Punisher in WBF "I make playing dirty look good", also see the comparison of tactics between Cap and Punisher. The vietnam war made him dirty and ruthless (Greg may have retconned it to desert storm ****ing hope not).

Looks like Frank is younger according to the current series. And in one of the flashbacks, it did look like Desert Storm.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Looks like Frank is younger according to the current series. And in one of the flashbacks, it did look like Desert Storm.

Its possible that maybe he fought in Desert Storm as well. If it has been retconned Vietnam was an important part of his origin.

Originally posted by Deadline
Its possible that maybe he fought in Desert Storm as well. If it has been retconned Vietnam was an important part of his origin.

True. Punisher, like Cap, was/is the product of the times when he was originally conceived. Unlike Cap, however, I think the core of who Frank Castle is as a character, can be shifted to better reflect the current day age. Plus he's never had the nifty plot device "frozen in the arctic" thing going for him. 😉

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Unlike Cap, however, I think the core of who Frank Castle is as a character, can be shifted to better reflect the current day age.

Um no Vietnam was part of what made him what he was. The whole thing about Vietnam was that it supposed to be pure hell...compare that to Desert Storm, it wasn't even really a war.

Shit just read what Rucka said in an interview the guy retconned his origin.... *sigh* I don't think thats gonna stick.

Originally posted by Deadline
Meh well I can always go back to the fact that Doom tried to kill him and failed, was hunting him down then Frank lured Doom out. *shrug*

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He sent a Doombot (which was easily dispatched by a machine gun), a single tank, and two jetpack dudes with guns. Punisher escaped via his own jet-pack. And luring out Doom (right after running away from America) isn't what I call an amazing feat. You boil it down and Punisher essentially ran away from Doom and betted on Doom sparing his life, choosing to keep his word and honor, over his pride in losing a bet with Kingpin. Recasting that as if it were Punisher "outsmarting" Doom tactically is absurd.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

1. That wasn't a standard machine gun it's gone through hi-tech exoskeletons before. Eventhough Doombots vary in power let's not assume it's the weakest.

2. There were probably more than two guys, after he killed them Punisher had to hide in woods and Doom talks about his spies who saw what happened. So most likely he had to hide from other assassins in the area.

3. Sure Doom underestimated but Pun was caught in the back foot and still survived.

4. No he defintely did not merely hide. Read the comic again and I don't think I'm going to tell you again. The comic clearly shows that Doom was using tactics to find Punisher he even stated that he was factoring in possibilities, obvoulsy Punisher was using tactics to hide from as well, the fact of the matter is in the end Punisher lured him out.

Pointing out that he betted he would spare his life is silly. It was a tactical gamble that he would survive. Doom, Cap and Reed have all done tactical gambles all of a sudden in this instance it don't mean nothing.

The fact of the matter is Punisher did outsmart Doom, period. But I provided context early in on the debate. My point wasn't that Punisher was smarter than Doom my point is that he was smart enough to pit his wits against him for a relatively short time ie tactical hiding. Fact of the matter Doom was impressed.

Originally posted by Deadline
Back to the thread. To be quite honest with you Punisher could do better than Batman, not because hes smarter but because hes more ruthless. None of the villains have got anything that Punisher hasn't faced before. Ultimately Joker is overated and not invinvible, when you got people like Jean Paul Valley psyching him out by taking the piss out of his hairstyle and Barbara and Jason exploiting his weakness (question or affect anything to do with his insanity) Punisher could outsmart him.

How does any of that apply to Punisher?

Originally posted by -Pr-
How does any of that apply to Punisher?

Because hes smart enough to figure out his weakness. Y'know Jean Paul Valley just took the piss out of his hair and Barbara smashed his teeth and that really pissed him off. His hair and his smile express his madness take that away and he gets angry.

Originally posted by Deadline
No:

1. That wasn't a standard machine gun it's gone through hi-tech exoskeletons before. Eventhough Doombots vary in power let's not assume it's the weakest.

Originally posted by Deadline
2. There were probably more than two guys, after he killed them Punisher had to hide in woods and Doom talks about his spies who saw what happened. So most likely he had to hide from other assassins in the area.

3. Sure Doom underestimated but Pun was caught in the back foot and still survived.

Doom underestimated Punisher and tried to take him out as if he were a cheap hood. That doesn't detract from either character but let's not make it out to be anything else than what it was.

Originally posted by Deadline
4. No he defintely did not merely hide. Read the comic again and I don't think I'm going to tell you again. The comic clearly shows that Doom was using tactic to find Punisher he even stated that he was factoring in possibilities, obvoulsy Punisher was using tactics to hide from as well, the fact of the matter is in the end Punisher lured him out.

Pointing out that he betted he would spare his life is silly. It was a tactical gamble that he would survive. Doom, Cap and Reed have all done tactical gambles all of a sudden in this instance it don't mean nothing.

I don't see what's silly about it. That's exactly what happened. Had Doom no honor, he would have just killed Punisher after getting his portrait. Punisher successfuly gambling is just that: successfully gambling. It required no out-thinking or fooling on Frank's part.

On specifically the Penguin vs Punisher topic it's important to look at how Batman and Punisher differ in their tactics. Punisher is all about preemptive strikes... alternatively Batman waits until a problem arises before he deals with it. This difference exists because Punisher isn't trying to send criminals to jail, so he doesn't need evidence that Cobblepot is breaking the law again before he acts. Punisher doesn't separate past criminal activities from present ones, and he doesn't care about time served, if he thinks you are a threat, he's coming for you, and that's what he'll do to Cobblepot. Cobblepot doesn't hide around in a secret lair somewhere, he owns property, he has his club, he has "legitimate" business operations that he oversees, he is out in the open for everyone to see. The red tape that Police and Batman have to deal with is of no concern to Frank. Batman can't just beat up Penguin every time he gets out on parole and return him to the police with a note that says "I'm sure he was up to something!"... because they would have nothing to hold him on, but Punisher doesn't give a f@ck about that. Everyone in the city and Police Force knows Cobblepot is dirty, the fact that they might not have anything solid to hold him on, or get a warrant might stop them... but it won't stop Punisher.

Punisher just waits across the street from the Iceberg Casino and snipes Oswald. Done.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
On specifically the Penguin vs Punisher topic it's important to look at how Batman and Punisher differ in their tactics. Punisher is all about preemptive strikes... alternatively Batman waits until a problem arises before he deals with it. This difference exists because Punisher isn't trying to send criminals to jail, so he doesn't need evidence that Cobblepot is breaking the law again before he acts. Punisher doesn't separate past criminal activities from present ones, and he doesn't care about time served, if he thinks you are a threat, he's coming for you, and that's what he'll do to Cobblepot. Cobblepot doesn't hide around in a secret lair somewhere, he owns property, he has his club, he has "legitimate" business operations that he oversees, he is out in the open for everyone to see. The red tape that Police and Batman have to deal with is of no concern to Frank. Batman can't just beat up Penguin every time he gets out on parole and return him to the police with a note that says "I'm sure he was up to something!"... because they would have nothing to hold him on, but Punisher doesn't give a f@ck about that. Everyone in the city and Police Force knows Cobblepot is dirty, the fact that they might not have anything solid to hold him on, or get a warrant might stop them... but it won't stop Punisher.

Punisher just waits across the street from the Iceberg Casino and snipes Oswald. Done.

👆