Who is the Phantom menace?

Originally posted by queeq
Marquand had to do the stuff George didn't like to do. Hehehehe…

But I agree… to me ESB is by far the best SW movie. Damn near perfect, like no other SW movie ever was. It has the best story, the best dramatics, the best acting. It's somewhat darkish and grim, but not to an excessive extent. It leaves room for imagination (the tree) and has a stunning climax, one of the greatest in movie history.
ROTJ is the first of the PT movies actually, with some of the good stuff still there. Personally I think the scenes with Vader, the Emperor and later with Luke are what save this movie. And these are basically the scenes Marquand did, Lucas wasn't too involved in these, although he did make some really good changes in the script. It's strange that Lucas didn't see these things that made the OT great.

But yeah, Lucas clearly wanted movies like the PT… and that's what he got. Luckily we got ESB.

I agree with your points but I wouldn't personally wouldn't say Return of the Jedi was the start of the prequel trilogy, unless you're talking about the ewoks. As a story it is still an enjoyable and solid ending to original trilogy.
And agreed that the Luke, Emperor, Vader scenes are the best of the movie.
It is one of my favourite scenes in the whole Star Wars saga when Vader taunts luke, discovers Leia's his daughter and then says "If you will not turn to the dark side then perhaps she will" and Luke snaps and attacks Vader, cutting his hand off and then the Emperor tells him to replace Vader and join the darkside, and then Luke says no. A well rounded, powerful scene that, to me, brings round the full circle of Luke's character journey from farmboy to Jedi Knight perfectly.

Oh don't get me wrong. I love those scenes. I think ROTJ has the very best opening of ALL Star Wars movies. Lots of great stuff… but yeah, there are the Ewoks, there's Leia as Luke's sister, there's the rather clumsy part of Solo (and consequently acted as such), there's OB1's stupid 'point of view' line. This is the first SW where a lot happens because the script says it must.

One thing that struck me is that it took Carrie Fisher a couple of weeks to "get" her character… Leia, the character that she developed in two previous movies, was suddenly quite different, softer, gentler, more feminine… not because Leia was so, but because Lucas wanted her so… It's things like this. Luckily there's a lot to compensate those awkward things… But it's that awkwardness that kinda fills up the PT. That's what I meant: you can see the PT problems emerging here.

Originally posted by queeq
Oh don't get me wrong. I love those scenes. I think ROTJ has the very best opening of ALL Star Wars movies. Lots of great stuff… but yeah, there are the Ewoks, there's Leia as Luke's sister, there's the rather clumsy part of Solo (and consequently acted as such), there's OB1's stupid 'point of view' line. This is the first SW where a lot happens because the script says it must.

One thing that struck me is that it took Carrie Fisher a couple of weeks to "get" her character… Leia, the character that she developed in two previous movies, was suddenly quite different, softer, gentler, more feminine… not because Leia was so, but because Lucas wanted her so… It's things like this. Luckily there's a lot to compensate those awkward things… But it's that awkwardness that kinda fills up the PT. That's what I meant: you can see the PT problems emerging here.

I actually think Leia softening from the first two in Return of the Jedi was showing that she's gone from the damsel-in-distress who can hold her own, and gets into bickering matches with Han Solo to someone who has fallen in love with Han and let her softer side come out more, I think she still comes across strongly as a character in Jedi, and I didn't have much of a problem with her being Luke's sister (Apart from the fact she kissed him in Empire). there is a scene in Empire when Obi-Won says "That boy's our last hope", and then Yoda says "No, there is another", so the fact she's Luke's sister carries on from that quite well and makes some sense.
Also the Obi-Won saying "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" I think was quite philosophical in a way, cause it's Obi-Won wanting to remember Anakin for who he was before he turned into Darth Vader. Of course that was all ruined by Anakin's character in the prequels.
There is some very dodgy dialogue from Obi-Won after Luke says "Leia's my sister" and Obi-Won replies "Your insides serve you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke, they do you credit but could be made to serve the Emperor" Hmm

I didn't mind the feminine side of Leia, but the transition was rather abrupt. That's what I mean…

And Leia being Luke's sister was too much 'wrapping things up'. We still have a father-issue to resolve and suddenly there's also a sister. (let alone a droid built by dad…).

And yes, the PT ruined this movie a lot more. Leia remembering her mother… tssss….

Originally posted by queeq
I didn't mind the feline side of Leia, but the transition was rather abrupt. That's what I mean…

And Leia being Luke's sister was too much 'wrapping things up'. We still have a father-issue to resolve and suddenly there's also a sister. (let alone a droid built by dad…).

And yes, the PT ruined this movie a lot more. Leia remembering her mother… tssss….

Wrapping things up? Yeah, that's kinda true, but I feel it was because Leia had fallen in love with Han and Luke was becoming the spare man, so George thought it would wrap it up all right if he made Leia Luke's sister. but with that line "There is another" being in Empire, I think also gives some impression that it was a part of the story from the beginning, but who knows, it was the way it was.
Though you gotta kinda wonder how Leia survived all those years on Alderaan without the Emperor or Vader sensing her presence, or who working out her true identity.

And yeah, one of the most crucial screw ups of the prequels:
"Leia, Do you remember your mother, your real mother" "Just a little bit, she died when I was very young" "how young?" "Umm 30 seconds" "30 seconds?! I got the force and I don't remember her. How do you remember anything at that age ,you weirdo"

Originally Luke did have a sister, "the other" but that was NOT Leia… the idea was that Leia (and Solo) would return to her people after ROTJ, where Luke would defeat Vader… Not yet the Emperor. Then Luke would go in search for his sister so together they could topple the most evil man in the galaxy.

Which kinda makes a lot of sense. Destroying Vader would have been quite an effort, but both Vader AND the Emperor is a bit much. (And Leia as a sister etc.). No, Empire was set up to prolong SW for another three movies after ROTJ.

And for those interested: if you read the newest Making of… books, it is clear there was never a complete and detailed story Lucas had in his mind. The only element that ever existed from the earliest Journal of the Whills is a story about a father and a son, a story of redemption. Anakins backstory was never about a little pod racing kid… it's clear from all the development of the OT that Anakin and OB1 met when they were adult like… Anakin younger, OB1 a Jedi Knight, who took on Anakin as an apprentice (not one that was forced on him by the Jedi Council as was the case in TPM)… a lot was not pre-conceived. They created the OT Indiana Jones style: making it up as they went along.

Originally posted by queeq
Originally Luke did have a sister, "the other" but that was NOT Leia… the idea was that Leia (and Solo) would return to her people after ROTJ, where Luke would defeat Vader… Not yet the Emperor. Then Luke would go in search for his sister so together they could topple the most evil man in the galaxy.

Which kinda makes a lot of sense. Destroying Vader would have been quite an effort, but both Vader AND the Emperor is a bit much. (And Leia as a sister etc.). No, Empire was set up to prolong SW for another three movies after ROTJ.

And for those interested: if you read the newest Making of… books, it is clear there was never a complete and detailed story Lucas had in his mind. The only element that ever existed from the earliest Journal of the Whills is a story about a father and a son, a story of redemption. Anakins backstory was never about a little pod racing kid… it's clear from all the development of the OT that Anakin and OB1 met when they were adult like… Anakin younger, OB1 a Jedi Knight, who took on Anakin as an apprentice (not one that was forced on him by the Jedi Council as was the case in TPM)… a lot was not pre-conceived. They created the OT Indiana Jones style: making it up as they went along.

Yeah, it was those hints of the Anakin and Obi-Won story that were in the originals. And with the way the prequels were written it was evident Lucas never had the completed full story in his mind, but he seemed to think that the content from the originals wasnt important enough, or enough to stop him making a big toy advert (Like TPM was). The pod racing was one of the prime examples of that
It was going to be hard to condense the whole story of Anakin's journey from Jedi Knight, and subsequent family man to the dark side, and the Rise of the Empire into 3 films, but we never expected it to be as bad as THAT.

I dunno… three movies for a story that starts right before the Clone Wars, with Anakin and OB1 meeting… one movie of Anakin's talent as a Jedi Knight (like ANH but of course very different), one movie about Anakin's slow tilt to the dark side, one movie about his fall and OB1's attempt to convert him back to the good guy we've seen for 1,5 movie at least (no all we got was a grumpy kid that was bound to go bad), falling and maiming him in the attempt… That would have been great I think. Now, his fall took one movie, but ever since we saw Anakin as an adult, he was already pretty evil like… Why the heck did they ever admit this guy to Jedi Training?

Originally posted by queeq
I dunno… three movies for a story that starts right before the Clone Wars, with Anakin and OB1 meeting… one movie of Anakin's talent as a Jedi Knight (like ANH but of course very different), one movie about Anakin's slow tilt to the dark side, one movie about his fall and OB1's attempt to convert him back to the good guy we've seen for 1,5 movie at least (no all we got was a grumpy kid that was bound to go bad), falling and maiming him in the attempt… That would have been great I think. Now, his fall took one movie, but ever since we saw Anakin as an adult, he was already pretty evil like… Why the heck did they ever admit this guy to Jedi Training?

Yeah, agree with you. Because Lucas didn't seem to know how to write character development.
Episode 1 should have showed his meeting and friendship with Obi-Won, and you could have put in the start of the Jedi Training, with perhaps in episode throw in a couple more training things that could be the start of his tilt to the dark side along with other bad things that might happen, yet also by this time he would have fallen in love with Padme. Episode 3, yes ,that focuses on his lust for more power and subsequent turn, all 3 at the backdrop in the Clone Wars, which in Episode 3 becomes part of the Rise of the Empire, which take over the galaxy. There's the basic outline for the way the prequels should have been.
Could have been done over 3 films, but if you flesh it out to make it all tension filled and very believable, you have got quite alot to cover.
But It certainly in almost everyway should have been better than the 3 pieces of garbage we got.

Amen

The "Phantom Menace" could also be the Trade Federation's blockade and treaty demands. It was not a real conflict, but rather something concocted by Sidious to provoke a reaction and bait the Jedi into Senate into a real war.

Concocted by Sidious... so Sidious is the phantom menace.

Of course he is. And so is the plan… I still don't get what Sidious was going for. It's the weirdest villain-takes-over-the-world plot ever: totally incomprehensible.

YouTube video

I think he was going for world domination. The name of the plan says everything.

Yeah I agree with the Phantom Menace being the Sith, as they are thought to be dead....so yeah Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think he was going for world domination. The name of the plan says everything.

Yeah, I got the WHAT. The HOW of TPM puzzles me until this day…

You don't really need a HOW in the PT when all of your enemies and obstacles are mental vegetables.

True… but all those endless talks about treaties, blockades, votes in the Senate etc etc… make even vegetables fall asleep…

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Concocted by Sidious... so Sidious is the phantom menace.

It really depends on which meaning of "phantom" you use. From Miriam-Webster, here are several meanings of the word and who or what it points to.

1)
A. Something apparent to sense but with no substantial existence.
The Separatists! The Jedi could perceive the separatists (but not Sidious) so they were apparent to sense, and as soon as Palpatine was done with them he made them vanish - Poof! So they had no substantial existence.
Palpatine! The Jedi could see Palpatine, but he was merely a deceptive facade for Sidious.

B. Something elusive or visionary.
Could be either Palpatine or the Sith! Both were elusive to the Jedi; in fact, if I remember correctly Obi-Wan used that very word in the opening scene of the movie.

C. An object of continual dread or abhorrence.
The Sith (rather than Sidious himself)! The Jedi abhorred and dreaded the Sith and all they stood for, but they did not know who Sidious was so they only dreaded him as the theoretical current embodiment of the Sith

2) Something existing in appearance only.
We are back to the Separatists and/or Palpatine again. They appeared to be the enemy of the Republic but in fact were nothing, whereas the Sith could not be seen but were very real!

Is it possible that is sometimes spend too much time thinking about words? Nah!

I'm focusing on the 'menace' part. There's only one menace in the film(s). The Sith and the Sith's schemes. Specifically one Sith, named Sidious. And all his schemes.

The 'Phantom' part is just a flowery addition. They could have easily renamed the film Star Wars Episode I: The Obvious Menace.