I thought Caedus and Luke ended in a stalemate, with both luke and Caedus sustaining heavy injuries (caedus more so).
Nah. Among Caedus's first musings in Fury were something akin to "Luke had beaten him. And if it were not for Ben, Caedus would be dead." Later, he labels himself the most skilled duelist in the galaxy "except perhaps Luke, who was possibly the greater swordsman there ever was" (paraphrased). Caedus is not known for his modesty.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
But how would he fare against the full might of Plagueis?
Lets not forget that Caedus had very deep understanding of the Force and mastered even such techniques that were not even known before. He could absorb energy like Corran Horn. Together with Luke they mastered how to draw on the Force to the limits of their potential. He was the only Jedi who could be among killiks without being influenced by them.
Jaina was his equal in terms of potential and one of the strongest lightsaber fighters. Plus, she received Mandalorian training, which turned her into lethal anti-Sith weapon. Yet, he was able to fight her singlehandedly.
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Actually...Caedus has done both of these. Well, at least the first (in Invincible, he shatters the lightsaber-proof beskar armor, using shatterpoint, with a tap). He has also deflected turbolasers from a Chiss dropship. That are, like, supposed to rank kilotons at full power.Plageuis, according to the back of the hardcover, is "the most powerful sith who had ever lived", presumably before Sidious. But Caedus is exempt from this quote. I haven't actually read my Plageuis copy yet, so maybe I should wait.
As you say Caedus used Shatterpoint to do that, not strength, striking it at the precise place he needed to to easily crack it.
And I'm not much of a physicist but I don't think having a higher yield or amount of power makes a laser heavier, not that much at least. Still if you know how much a kiloton of turbolaser fire weighs and how physically hard it is to deflect, you know more than I. Also I'll point oiut that Plagueis punched through armor while dying with 2 hearts shut down.
Plagueis still has a speed advantage.
Why on earth would a particular cognomen imbue a person with superior speed than a person who doesn't share it?
Feat-wise, Plagueis enjoys an advantage over Caedus in speed, but since Caedus could keep up with Luke Skywalker, I doubt that it means anything. I expect Caedus to be on par with the Muun in terms of quickness.
Arhael,
Anakin [Solo] actually had far more potential than Jaina and Jacen. Kyp stated that Anakin was the future of the order. If the writers had killed off Jaina instead of Anakin, the lightsaber fight between Anakin and now Caedus probably would have been different. The two trained against each other and Anakin was getting better each time. It can be argued that Anakin's only equal was Ganner at Jedi Knight level. Both took numerous wounds in a single fight and performed Starkiller like feats until their deaths. During the final battle in the Yuuzhan Vong War, Jaina was outclassed by the Slayers where Jacen and Luke were not. Jacen took out Nom Anor and Luke killed Shimmra - both serious heavy weights in the war.
To the fight between Luke and Caedus, Luke had to worry about Ben. Can't remember what book, but Luke humiliated Caedus pinning him to the floor without even moving. Caedus was fearful that if Luke discovered the truth that he had killed Mara, Luke would unleash hell on him and there would be no way he [Caedus] could survive. He didn't expect Jaina to ambush him and was terrified that Allana would be killed in the 2nd Galactic Civil War. That's why he was killed.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Arhael,Anakin [Solo] actually had far more potential than Jaina and Jacen. Kyp stated that Anakin was the future of the order. If the writers had killed off Jaina instead of Anakin, the lightsaber fight between Anakin and now Caedus probably would have been different. The two trained against each other and Anakin was getting better each time. It can be argued that Anakin's only equal was Ganner at Jedi Knight level. Both took numerous wounds in a single fight and performed Starkiller like feats until their deaths. During the final battle in the Yuuzhan Vong War, Jaina was outclassed by the Slayers where Jacen and Luke were not. Jacen took out Nom Anor and Luke killed Shimmra - both serious heavy weights in the war.
To the fight between Luke and Caedus, Luke had to worry about Ben. Can't remember what book, but Luke humiliated Caedus pinning him to the floor without even moving. Caedus was fearful that if Luke discovered the truth that he had killed Mara, Luke would unleash hell on him and there would be no way he [Caedus] could survive. He didn't expect Jaina to ambush him and was terrified that Allana would be killed in the 2nd Galactic Civil War. That's why he was killed.
I don't really think that Anakin had more potential, although he probably did. Kyp stated that not really because of his power but personality. He was very kind and completely selfless.
In first NJO book Jacen and Anakin dueled. Anakin lost and was very disappointed because he trained much harder but for his brother combat was never priority. Ganner was no equal to Anakin or Jacen, although had great potential but his arrogance was his greatest enemy. Both Anakin and especially Ganner performed amazing feats during state of oneness, yet, Jacen's oneness during fight with Onimi was much stronger and deeper.
During final battle with Yuzhan Vong Jaina fought against Slayers as good as Jacen. If you remember, Onimi got her attention and she followed him, then he managed to outwit her by poisoning.
Luke during fight with Caedus gave out best he could. He tried to kill Caedus instantly and ruthlessly. The very first strike Jacen survived only because of his amazing reflexes, his kidney or leaver though was partially burned. If not for circumstances Luke wouldn't get that many injuries but fight itself would be much much longer.
Yes, Luke did humiliate Caedus by pinning him down. A lot of credit for that goes not just to Luke's power but his talents of using it. Plus, he caught him off guard. In the middle of the fight Luke wouldn't be able to do that.
Yes, Caedus was terrified that Allana might get killed. But my opinion is that it is the main reason he was able to give such a long fight to Jaina, otherwise she would kill him much faster. When you need to protect someone, it gives you much stronger determination and reason to win.
As for Plagueis, he was much more powerful. As I said before Caedus was using only his own potential coming from within, while Plagueis resorted to Sith Sorcery, draining emotions and life energy from others and other ways that make him much more powerful, than Luke or any other Jedi. But that's where his advantages finish. Power is not deciding factor. Jacen's capabilities in combat, the way he utilizes the Force during combat and taking advantage of fighting ground are clearly above Plagueis.
On the other hand Jacen stands no chance, if he fights Plagueis near a dark side nexus place like Sith academy. Plagueis would imbue himself farther and utilize Sith Sorcery in a way that Jacen would not be capable to counter as Sith.
In the end I don't know who would win. Both have uniquenesses and immense potential. Imho I side with Caedus for his versatility but in terms of power Plagueis as proper Sith wins by far.
I found a comprehensive respect thread on Plagueis. After reading it I definately think he can take Jacen.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I found a comprehensive respect thread on Plagueis. After reading it I definately think he can take Jacen.
Winner, Plagueis. 🙂
Venamis had him beaten and Jacen/Caedus was trained by Luke himself. Now I think being trained by the most powerful Jedi Master in SW mythos is something to take into account. He [Caedus] was stated by the only other swordsman who could actually give Luke somewhat of a fight.
That was only the first NJO book and remember that Jacen took a vacation during the YV War where Anakin and Jaina were serving actively in combat. Jaina was nowhere near the power or skill in swordsmanship as Anakin or Jacen. For some odd reason the writers of the SW EU decided to make female Jedi [save Saba] less powerful and skilled. Jaina was overrun in the final battle, she nearly was forced to tap out.
Also, Caedus was stated to be more powerful than his grandfather, therefore probably close to Palpatine. He was the only Force user close to Luke's level. Jacen/Caedus powers and skills were amped up by the LoTF series to Master abilities.
Also Arhael, are you saying that Starkiller is more powerful than Anakin and Ganner cause that's a pretty bold statement.
Jaina was nowhere near the power or skill in swordsmanship as Anakin or Jacen.On what basis did you make this conclusion? In sword skill she was on level with Jacen, if not above.
As Jacen she fought slayers equally good.
Having her legs sticked to the floor, while Tsavong La was attacking from behind, she still was able to defend and eventually killed him.
While training with Zekk to face Jacen, she was beating him up guite easily but Jag said that she will still loose because Sith never fight fair.
And that is true, it's not lightsaber skill that makes Jacen stand out.
While clashing with lightsabers, he would kick or strike into vital body points.
What makes Jacen stand out is his ability to utilize the Force during combat.
Mara in fight had upper hand and was driving him back. When they both were on the floor at some point she got chance to kill him, yet, he managed to hold her lightsaber hand with the Force long enough to reach for poison dart in his pocket.
Before first fight between twins Jaina crippled his arm with rifle. Yet, when she approached him, the first thing that happened is heavy object smashing her down. If not Luke empowering her, that's how fight would have ended. Then, when she chopped his arm, he badly electrocuted her.
In the final fight Jacen was able to fight Jaina so long not with saber skill but by constantly using Force against her.
Even Luke has never showed such degree of using Force in combat.
I've never been able to get a good idea about how strong Jaina is. I mean, as a Skywalker/Solo she should be pretty damn powerful, but then she gets wtfpwned over and over again by some random ****ing Mandalorian when not using a lightsaber. She only beats Jacen with mountains of PIS on her side. She seems to train alot but I've never seen her actually legit win a fight.
Its irritating how underdeveloped she is. ****ing Ben has a better track record.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
It took her to the FoTJ series to be promoted to Master. Talk about frozen rank.
I was being sarcastic. Of course I know the regs on becoming a Master. But remember, Luke also fought multiple wars like Jaina and became a Master. Kyp fought numerous wars too and was also possessed by Exar Kun, but he too was promoted to Master. Psychological stress has absolutely nothing to do with it because a Jedi has to control their emotions. They can't flip out during combat or over something trivial. She had no time before the FoTJ series . . . 2nd Galactic Civil War and the Joiner War. Jacen took Ben as an apprentice [before he turned] and he had Master level abilities. Rebutal?
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I was being sarcastic. Of course I know the regs on becoming a Master. But remember, Luke also fought multiple wars like Jaina and became a Master. Kyp fought numerous wars too and was also possessed by Exar Kun, but he too was promoted to Master. Psychological stress has absolutely nothing to do with it because a Jedi has to control their emotions. They can't flip out during combat or over something trivial. She had no time before the FoTJ series . . . 2nd Galactic Civil War and the Joiner War. Jacen took Ben as an apprentice [before he turned] and he had Master level abilities. Rebutal?
To be completely honest I've never really been that impressed with Jacen overall. As far as knowing/learning mysterious, random force powers he is probably king. As far as overall power and top tier wins not so much. He houses Kyle Katarn, valin horn and some other chumps which is impressive but none of them are even close to top tier like- Yoda, mace, Luke, dooku, palpatine, bane, Vader, etc. He's clearly above jaina, but her power and skill is even more questionable than jacens. Would u put her up there with the top tiers? Then u have his altercations with Luke. When Luke first goes to him with serious intentions he flat out embarasses jacen. Luke just pops onto his ship talks trash, pins him down in his chair so he cant even move a finger, then flatens his chair making him smack his ass on the ground like a little kid and has to listen to luke from there. The whole time jacen is narrating how scared he is that Luke not only has this kind of power but can summon it so easy out of nowhere. Their next meeting is their battle in which Luke starts off shocked and furious about what jacen did to Ben. He proceeds to beat on jacen relentlessly while overcoming his shock, fighting off dark side emotions about what happend to Ben, trying to protect Ben thru the fight. Also most of, if not all the serious blows jacen delt Luke were due to his vines, tentacles, and other weapons he used on his ship which gave jacen a huge homefield advantage, and he still only lived because luke let him and left with ben. Then later when jacen and luke squared off in space luke completly dominated him, completly dismantled his stealth x with the force and the only thing that saved jacen again was he had his daughter so luke let him go again. Not really a stellar record overall if u ask me.