^ But end of the day, he needs more than statements, he needs to defeat note worthy individuals in Saber combat. And unfortunately his record for this is not too good.
He did not show himself to be superior to Old Ben in ANH and he got defeated by Padawan Luke in ROTJ.
Going by CW Animation I think it's clear Maul's close combat skills exceed CW Kenobi's.
Plus Vader already fought a clone of Maul in an EU comic who he did defeat, but again Maul was shown to be a superior duelist. And that was just a clone of Maul.
So if it's Sabers and close combat only without the use of any Force TK, then Im sticking with Maul for now.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He did not show himself to be superior to Old Ben in ANH
Actually, he and Obi were going back and forth equally, and then Kenobi decided to give up and let himself be killed.
It's speculative as to whether Kenobi could have beaten him a second time or not.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and he got defeated by Padawan Luke in ROTJ.
Vader held back on his boy.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Going by CW Animation I think it's clear Maul's close combat skills exceed CW Kenobi's.
Plus Vader already fought a clone of Maul in an EU comic who he did defeat, but again Maul was shown to be a superior duelist. And that was just a clone of Maul.So if it's Sabers and close combat only without the use of any Force TK, then Im sticking with Maul for now.
But what of TFUII's Vader, which we're talking about here? The guy was a wrecking ball of Force energy and burning energy blade.
He gave Galen Marek utter hell, and Marek could likely defeat Maul in lightsaber combat.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Actually, he and Obi were going back and forth equally, and then Kenobi decided to give up and let himself be killed.
It's speculative as to whether Kenobi could have beaten him a second time or not.
Like I said, he didn't actually show himself to be particularly superior to Old Ben.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Vader held back on his boy.
Not in the Lightsaber combat. According to the ROTJ novel he was being legitimately beaten. Where he probably held back is he didn't Force TK Luke all over the Death Star.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
But what of TFUII's Vader, which we're talking about here? The guy was a wrecking ball of Force energy and burning energy blade.He gave Galen Marek utter hell, and Marek could likely defeat Maul in lightsaber combat.
But isn't the TFUII Galen a clone of the original? I'm not done reading it yet, but if he is a clone, then he needs his own Lightsaber feats to show how good he is.
The Original Galen Marek comfortably defeated Vader in Saber combat after battling through armies of storm troopers, Tie-Fighters and even AT-AT Walkers.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like I said, he didn't actually show himself to be particularly superior to Old Ben.
And vice versa.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not in the Lightsaber combat. According to the ROTJ novel he was being legitimately beaten.
I'd hardly count a halfway-trained Apprentice with the elegance of Stevie Wonder at batting-practice, a legitimate threat against Vader's expertly trained and honed mastery of the lightsaber over the decades.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where he probably held back is he didn't Force TK Luke all over the Death Star.
😆 True.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But isn't the TFUII Galen a clone of the original? I'm not done reading it yet, but if he is a clone, then he needs his own Lightsaber feats to show how good he is.
From what I understand, the idiots who wrote those stories made him into a Ghola - a clone with all the original memories and skills of the man who had died, or something like that. Essentially, they just used a moronically creative way to bring back their beloved Gary Sue.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Original Galen Marek comfortably defeated Vader in Saber combat after battling through armies of storm troopers, Tie-Fighters and even AT-AT Walkers.
From what I've heard, Vader really gave him a near shit-kicking the next time around.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
And vice versa.
Yeah I agree. But unless Ben has signifcantly improved his Saber skills while in hiding, that's really nothing to brag about.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'd hardly count a halfway-trained Apprentice with the elegance of Stevie Wonder at batting-practice, a legitimate threat against Vader's expertly trained and honed mastery of the lightsaber over the decades.
Well we can't go by appearances considering how lame Mace vs Sidious looked and they were 2 of the 3 most powerful warriors in the Galaxy 😮
But it's the ROTJ novel that really ruins it by clearly stating that in the Saber fight the inexperienced Luke was legitimately beating down his dad 😮
Originally posted by Battlemaster
From what I understand, the idiots who wrote those stories made him into a Ghola - a clone with all the original memories and skills of the man who had died, or something like that. Essentially, they just used a moronically creative way to bring back their beloved Gary Sue.From what I've heard, Vader really gave him a near shit-kicking the next time around.
I don't know if that's ever been stated or cleared up, but doing so much worse against Vader the second time round would suggest the clone is weaker.
What I have read so far is his Lightsaber form is different. He uses Jar Kai. The original used Juyo for attack and Soresu for defence (a very deadly combination for Saber fighting).
I've not seen evidence of the clone using those forms yet, but Im only on Chapter 4, so will let you know as I read on if any further evidence of his Lightsaber prowess presents itself.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah I agree. But unless Ben has signifcantly improved his Saber skills while in hiding, that's really nothing to brag about.
Vader around that time hadn't had alot of practice with his lightsaber either, so it might say something for him after all.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well we can't go by appearances considering how lame Mace vs Sidious looked and they were 2 of the 3 most powerful warriors in the Galaxy 😮
I keep hearing that from other people, but it's a dumb opinion.
The fight between them was very impressive - it was rather realistic, with both of them using staccato movements gleaned from real life Kenjutsu, instead of spamming with just twirly stagefighting and acrobatics.
Also, both combatants would have moved many times quicker than the normal eye could track, so it was slowed down for the audience's convenience.
It was truly the best fight out of both movie trilogy's, no doubt.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But it's the ROTJ novel that really ruins it by clearly stating that in the Saber fight the inexperienced Luke was legitimately beating down his dad 😮
Could we get an excerpt, so as to know whether or not Vader was purposefully holding back for his son?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't know if that's ever been stated or cleared up, but doing so much worse against Vader the second time round would suggest the clone is weaker.What I have read so far is his Lightsaber form is different. He uses Jar Kai.
I think the Clone is the same guy, though?
Plus, Vader probably did better the next time around, not because the Clone was weaker, but because Vader was possibly more prepared.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The original used Juyo for attack and Soresu for defence (a very deadly combination for Saber fighting).
Juyo has all of Soresu in it, but refined. So using Juyo for attack and Soresu for defense is redundant.
(But what do we expect from those idiot writers?)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've not seen evidence of the clone using those forms yet, but Im only on Chapter 4, so will let you know as I read on if any further evidence of his Lightsaber prowess presents itself.
Okay, Thanks.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Vader around that time hadn't had alot of practice with his lightsaber either, so it might say something for him after all.
Problem is it's not too long after TFU series. A year tops.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I keep hearing that from other people, but it's a dumb opinion.The fight between them was very impressive - it was rather realistic, with both of them using staccato movements gleaned from real life Kenjutsu, instead of spamming with just twirly stagefighting and acrobatics.
Also, both combatants would have moved many times quicker than the normal eye could track, so it was slowed down for the audience's convenience.
I can understand it might be slowed down for audiences, but in terms of the technique they showed? Nah. Samuel and Ian did not use stunt doubles for that. It was far inferior to what we see from Hayden and Ewan.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
It was truly the best fight out of both movie trilogy's, no doubt.
Your kidding??
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Juyo has all of Soresu in it, but refined. So using Juyo for attack and Soresu for defense is redundant.
I don't think it does. I've never seen any evidence to suggest Mace Windu or Darth Maul use Soresu as part of their Juyo.
In fact there's a line in Dark Rendezvous which says Anakin or Mace would not have the patience for Soresu (or something like that.)
The Original Apprentice would switch between Juyo and Soresu depending on how the fight was going.
The only person to ever get past his Saber defences was Shaak Ti and that was via a suicide attack. And it was also a much less powerful version of Marek than what we have by the end of the novel.
From what I've read so far Starkiller in TFUII has Mastered Jar Kai, and has inherited knowledge of Ataru and Niman from his predecessor. No mention of Juyo or Soresu yet. But like I said I'm still early in the book. But clearly he's a different Lightsaber fighter than the original.
After first death start destruction in the same year dark prophets of the Sith resurrected Maul with Sith alchemy, so there was actual fight between them. They fought equally and Maul almost killed Vader but, then Vader unexpectedly pierced his own lightsaber through his body and Maul behind him. Vader won but barely survived.
Originally posted by Arhael
After first death start destruction in the same year dark prophets of the Sith resurrected Maul with Sith alchemy, so there was actual fight between them. They fought equally and Maul almost killed Vader but, then Vader unexpectedly pierced his own lightsaber through his body and Maul behind him. Vader won but barely survived.
Maul was the better duelist though and Replica's are never really quite as good as the original. Which is probably the case with the Starkiller clone as well.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Problem is it's not too long after TFU series. A year tops.
Good point, Touche'.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I can understand it might be slowed down for audiences, but in terms of the technique they showed? Nah. Samuel and Ian did not use stunt doubles for that. It was far inferior to what we see from Hayden and Ewan.
Hardly inferior. I've trained in Japanese swordsmanship in real life for the last three years, and I can tell you that Hayden and Ewan twirling their sticks around more doesn't make their fight any more impressive or superior.
Mace and Sidious's fight was mostly bare-bones dueling and far more realistic from what I saw.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your kidding??
Nope.
I always wanted to see "Senator Palpatine" go ape-shit and murder a bunch of Jedi, and then fight a high-ranking Jedi other than Yoda, to the death.
That fight, delivered. 🙂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't think it does. I've never seen any evidence to suggest Mace Windu or Darth Maul use Soresu as part of their Juyo.
I can't find my copy of Shatterpoint at the moment, but I remember Mace saying that in order to learn and use Juyo/Vapaad, a Jedi has to have knowledge of all the other forms first.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In fact there's a line in Dark Rendezvous which says Anakin or Mace would not have the patience for Soresu (or something like that.)
Writer's error, due to the fact that Mace's style would already include facets of the Form, and also that Mace is a Master, in contrast to the much younger, inexperienced and impatient Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Original Apprentice would switch between Juyo and Soresu depending on how the fight was going.
In real life, different systems in martial arts tend to interfere with one another, and switching back and fourth from one very advanced Form (Juyo) to a less advanced Form (Soresu) would be redundant. Especially if the former already contains the latter's techniques.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The only person to ever get past his Saber defences was Shaak Ti and that was via a suicide attack. And it was also a much less powerful version of Marek than what we have by the end of the novel.From what I've read so far Starkiller in TFUII has Mastered Jar Kai, and has inherited knowledge of Ataru and Niman from his predecessor. No mention of Juyo or Soresu yet. But like I said I'm still early in the book. But clearly he's a different Lightsaber fighter than the original.
Thanks for the heads-up.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIt's said that he was resurrected, not replicated. But how it was done is unknown. If we talk about clones, then Paplatine in DE didn't seem weaker in any way. )
Maul was the better duelist though and Replica's are never really quite as good as the original. Which is probably the case with the Starkiller clone as well.
Vader.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul was the better duelist though and Replica's are never really quite as good as the original. Which is probably the case with the Starkiller clone as well.
That's not true at all. They can be just as powerful as the original, and with the proper training even better.
Originally posted by BattlemasterHardly inferior. I've trained in Japanese swordsmanship in real life for the last three years, and I can tell you that Hayden and Ewan twirling their sticks around more doesn't make their fight any more impressive or superior.
Mace and Sidious's fight was mostly bare-bones dueling and far more realistic from what I saw.
Oh ok. I didn't know that. Still I wouldn't assume Luke is rubbish based on appearances.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I can't find my copy of [B]Shatterpoint at the moment, but I remember Mace saying that in order to learn and use Juyo/Vapaad, a Jedi has to have knowledge of all the other forms first. [/B]
I believe it's Master of multiple forms. But I've never heard of Juyo/Vapaad having any relation to Soresu at all.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
In real life, different systems in martial arts tend to interfere with one another, and switching back and fourth from one very advanced Form (Juyo) to a less advanced Form (Soresu) would be redundant. Especially if the former already contains the latter's techniques.
All the forms have specialities. Soresu is the best form for defense. Juyo is the deadliest attack form. Switching from one to another makes for excellent combat skills imo. But Ive never heard anywhere that Juyo is as good at defending as Soresu. Or even close in that particular department.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh ok. I didn't know that. Still I wouldn't assume Luke is rubbish based on appearances.
Luke was swinging his lightsaber around blindly whilst having a temper tantrum, more or less. 😕
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I believe it's Master of multiple forms. But I've never heard of Juyo/Vapaad having any relation to Soresu at all.
Multiple Forms would basically imply Soresu as well, then.
The point is, Juyo was the most advanced lightsaber Form in the modern era, because it incorporated elements from all previous forms, like Niman, but was geared more towards killing - making it effective, but dangerous because of how it could take the user into the penumbra of the Dark side.
Vapaad was obviously a later progressive version of these combative concepts.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
All the forms have specialities. Soresu is the best form for defense. Juyo is the deadliest attack form. Switching from one to another makes for excellent combat skills imo. But Ive never heard anywhere that Juyo is as good at defending as Soresu. Or even close in that particular department.
I know, I studied the Lightsaber Forms for eight years, inside and out, backwards and forwards along with the other Jedi/Sith lore.
Mathew Stover seems to be the only Star Wars writer that is an actual martial artist.
The others aren't, and they seem to ignore certain principles about combative formulas and the mechanics of swordsmanship, and this aggravates me. mad2
The others aren't, and they seem to ignore certain principles about combative formulas and the mechanics of swordsmanship, and this aggravates me.