TFUII Darth Vader Versus Darth Maul

Originally posted by Arhael
It's said that he was resurrected, not replicated. But how it was done is unknown. If we talk about clones, then Paplatine in DE didn't seem weaker in any way. )

So it was "The" Maul?? Well it will have to be retconned now if it was. Besides he showed he was a superior dueslist to Vader in that comic anyway so it doesn't matter.

As for Palpatine clones.. Well Im sure young clone bodies will be stronger than the old weakened original.

Originally posted by ares834

That's not true at all. They can be just as powerful as the original, and with the proper training even better.

How do you know when Starkiller was the first successful Force sensistive clone? So why would we assume he was 100% the Original? Especially after so many complete failures..

At the very least their memories are not perfect, so more training and experiences would be required to make him on par with Galen.

Edit- Not saying your wrong, just asking for some evidence considering the facts.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

I can't find my copy of [B]Shatterpoint at the moment, but I remember Mace saying that in order to learn and use Juyo/Vapaad, a Jedi has to have knowledge of all the other forms first.

[/B]

Wrong. Multiple forms? Yes. All forms? No.

Sorry DP. Didn't see your follow up to that quote until after I already posted.

BM - multiple forms in no way necessitates the inclusion of Soresu.

^ Yeah like JT said is all I've ever read.

Also in the descriptions of Juyo/Vapaad I've heard it produces the kind of kinetic energy Form V does with the mobility of Form IV. But I have yet to read anything which says it is related to or includes any Soresu in it.

So Battlemaster you will have to provide a quote to back what your claiming. I get what your saying that it's like mixed martial arts, but still that doesn't automatically mean it incorporates "every" form.

Point's moot anyway, because even if it has a bit of Soresu in it, the fact is the Soresu form itself is the best form for defending.

So the Original Galen Marek was actually a deadly duelist able to switch between Juyo and Soresu. Will have to see if this clone can provide more that just Jar Kai as I read on.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Wrong. Multiple forms? Yes. All forms? No.

Sorry DP. Didn't see your follow up to that quote until after I already posted.

BM - multiple forms in no way necessitates the inclusion of Soresu.

Given that Juyo is implied to be the most advanced Form of the period, even more so than Niman, which is comprised of elements of all six forms beforehand, it would make perfect sense for Soresu to be a part of the complex construct that is Form 7.

I believe when Stover said multiple, he loosely implied all the Forms.

But this a common error of Star Wars lore - where an author may write something in a loose manner, yet still basically imply that thing to be intended in a definite manner.

Kind of like how Form 1 is the first basic Form learned by every Jedi in the Order, as Initiates.

Back when the Forms were first mentioned, this wasn't specified.

So there were people - even here at the KMC Star Wars versus forum, who were arguing that just because Form 1 was the most basic Form, it didn't mean that Initiates learned it first.

I was arguing that it did - while they vehemently argued back that it didn't - and at the time, there was no official material supporting my statements. I was simply going on what naturally made sense as a student of martial arts for many years in real life.

So, they kept arguing that Form 1 was not the first Form learned by Initiates.

Then, two years later, it officially appeared that all Initiates learned Form 1 as the basic Form for training before any others.

Naturally, when I came back and pointed this out, everybody was silent. wink3

Take that, illogical assumptions.whip

Anyway, yeah, I'm pretty damn sure Stover implied for all the elements of othe previous Forms to be in there.

Juyo is said to be advanced, even more so than Niman, which has sorcerer elements of all previous Forms.

So, add one, carry the two.. and you get the point.

Anyway, do you have any source that states that Soresu isn't part of Juyo, or no?

Out of curiosity.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How do you know when Starkiller was the first successful Force sensistive clone? So why would we assume he was 100% the Original? Especially after so many complete failures..

At the very least their memories are not perfect, so more training and experiences would be required to make him on par with Galen.

Edit- Not saying your wrong, just asking for some evidence considering the facts.

I'm not saying he was more powerful... However, there is no reason to believe a clone can't be as powerful as the template which is what you seemed to be saying.

Anyway, it seems the Starkiller in TFU2 is the original almost everything points to it. Especially the secret videos in the game.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Anyway, do you have any source that states that Soresu isn't part of Juyo, or no?

Out of curiosity.

Well this would be pretty damn difficult to find. It would be like asking for a source which specifically states there's no Makashi in Soresu.

Im saying it's been mentioned Juyo has the kinetic energy of Form 5 with the mobility of Form 4. So we can assume those 2 forms are directly integrated into it.

But Iv never seen any evidence of Juyo incorporating any Soresu, or even being comparable to Soresu in terms of pure defense.

Being the "deadliest" form which is how it is described, does not suddenly make it the best at everything.

It's described as needing a high end master of multiple forms to use it effectively. It is not however described as being the Ultimate Form For Everything.

I think a good example would be this:

A boxer will need to run and weight train to get the most out of his boxing. That does not mean he's faster than a sprinter (or even equally fast) nor does it mean he can pick heavier weights than a weight lifter (or even pick comparable weights).

However the boxer will have much better stamina than the weight lifter and will be much stronger than the sprinter.

I've done a bit of boxing which is why I can give that example confidently.

Soresu does have a better defense than Juyo. That's why Galen would switch to Soresu when his Juyo defenses were being overwhelmed. That's canon Im afraid. Not saying Juyo does not have a good defense. It obviously must. And having incorporated form 5 (which is built from soresu but deflects attacks back) will certainly attest to that.

And there's no evidence anywhere that Mace Windu or Darth Maul have mastery of Soresu.

Edit- And why would Stover need to "imply" it has All of Soresu and Every other form incorporated into it. Why not just say it? Would not make sense for a martial artist to be vague about something definite. And imply what he means instead of making it clear to the majority of readers who are obviously not martial artists.

Originally posted by ares834

Anyway, it seems the Starkiller in TFU2 is the original almost everything points to it. Especially the secret videos in the game.

Really? What do they show? You got a link?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well this would be pretty damn difficult to find. It would be like asking for a source which specifically states there's no Makashi in Soresu.

That is totally moot and redundant, because Makashi isn't supposed to contain elements from other forms, while as you should know by now, Juyo, blatantly is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Im saying it's been mentioned Juyo has the kinetic energy of Form 5 with the mobility of Form 4. So we can assume those 2 forms are directly integrated into it.

But Iv never seen any evidence of Juyo incorporating any Soresu, or even being comparable to Soresu in terms of pure defense.

Being the "deadliest" form which is how it is described, does not suddenly make it the best at everything.

If it's hailed as the "Deadliest" Form - then what we can glean from this is that it has the aspects from the other Forms, but to a degree that makes it tops at what the other forms are for - Killing .

That means technique for defense, offense and spacial-usage are all optimized and superior to those in the previous Forms - blatantly implying the techniques of previous Forms, but heightened.

Back in the day, the wiki article describing it, essentially described it as a conglomeration, but with the elements of other Forms re-incorporated, so that those techniques all functioned at a higher level.

I still have that old snippet on another computer, but that's beside the point. The important part is what I've already said.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

It's described as needing a high end master of multiple forms to use it effectively. It is not however described as being the Ultimate Form For Everything.

I think a good example would be this:

A boxer will need to run and weight train to get the most out of his boxing. That does not mean he's faster than a sprinter (or even equally fast) nor does it mean he can pick heavier weights than a weight lifter (or even pick comparable weights).

However the boxer will have much better stamina than the weight lifter and will be much stronger than the sprinter.

I've done a bit of boxing which is why I can give that example confidently.

But you're using the wrong example to describe Juyo - instead of describing it as a Boxing practioner, think of it more as a Jeet Kune Do practioner.

Jeet Kune Do is a martial art, comprised of a few styles of Kung Fu (with Wing Chun acting as it's base and technical platform; skeleton if you will) and a few other martial arts built up around the system.

Jeet Kune Do is a hybrid system that is great for attack, primarily (Interceptive-attack) which is essentially actually an advanced form of defense (Defending by attacking) amongst other things.

Since it uses techniques from other systems as part of it's overall body, it has advantages there, too.

Now, having elements from other arts, would the Jeet Kune Do practioner be as good as striking as a fighter from Boxing?

Likely.

How about kicking?

Likely.

Groundfighting?

Very likely.

It is described as one of the deadly arts right now, which may put it on higher ground than other arts.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Soresu does have a better defense than Juyo. That's why Galen would switch to Soresu when his Juyo defenses were being overwhelmed. That's canon Im afraid. Not saying Juyo does not have a good defense. It obviously must. And having incorporated form 5 (which is built from soresu but deflects attacks back) will certainly attest to that.

Yeah, written by those idiot writers, who frankly probably don't know squat, even as other Star Wars fans would admit.

Juyo is like an M-16 assault rifle w/ a Grenade-Launcher attacked to the barrel.

Then Soresu is a handheld Grenade-Launcher.

When you're fighting with these weapons, in heavy combat - you won't be firing your M-16, and then decide to put that away and pull out your Grenade-Launcher - your M-16 already has a Grenade-Launcher attached, so there's no point.

When Juyo likely has elements from Soresu, even if from just one way or another, why switch back and forth between two Forms? It's a waste of time and may lead to a technical blunder.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And there's no evidence anywhere that Mace Windu or Darth Maul have mastery of Soresu.

No evidence? How about evidence to suggest that they don't have mastery of it?

If Juyo contains elements of Soresu, and both are masters of Juyo, then by association, they are masters of the previous Forms.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

[b]Edit- And why would Stover need to "imply" it has All of Soresu and Every other form incorporated into it. Why not just say it? Would not make sense for a martial artist to be vague about something definite. And imply what he means instead of making it clear to the majority of readers who are obviously not martial artists. [/B]

That's the point - he didn't make anything clear.

And he likely did it on accident. It happens all the time.

A writer will infer something, but due to how they wrote it at the time, some readers might not see it for what it is.

I wish I had my copy of Shatterpoint around.

I have two copies, which it ironic that I can't locate it. Bah. I wonder if I lent it out. angel_not

Anyway, I get what Stover was implying:

1. Deadliest Form - for killing (Even more so than Makashi, with it's attention to finesse for attack, and Soresu with it's attention for timing for defense) - strongly implying an inclusion of these Forms, or else making Juyo something totally brand new (which this itself is not implied, but instead the former)

2. All Juyo practioners apparently have to be Masters in other Forms.
Now, if you are a martial artist, you will notice that beyond Vapaad, there are no other variations of Juyo.
Now, think. If one Jedi Master used Juyo by combining Form 1, Form 2 and Form 4 - and then a second Jedi Master used Juyo just by combining Form 3, Form 4 and Form 6 - this would create two completely different animals.

But.

There are no separate variations. Juyo is learned with a set formula of technical elements, and these weren't even changed much when Windu created it's only known variant: Vapaad.

So if a Form, said to be "The Deadliest" has to be wielded by a Jedi who has Mastered the other multiple Forms - then in order to be this way, it means that all Jedi who used it had to have mastered the same Forms - and, that each Form mastered, put it ahead of all other Forms in terms of Deadliness. (I.E. Superiority, since all Forms are geared towards what? Killing the opponant .)

I see your point Battlemaster, but until I see some proof that Juyo contains ALL the best aspects of ALL the previous forms Im not buying it.

We cant just take assumptions and guesses about what the author is implying as canon fact.

And the silly author's you mention are the ones writing canon, so you can't really take your assumptions over what they make canon.

I do accept however that Juyo/Vapaad are the most powerful combat forms, and have at least incorporated and improved on Forms IV and V. But until I see it's incorporated and improved on forms II and III, I see no factual canon information to believe that it does.

Especially considering these forms have been around for years now, some evidence should have presented itself by now.

^ Oh yeah I just remembered Vapaad can't possibly have all soresu incorporated in it, because Mace tells Obi-Wan in the ROTS novel that Soresu is the best form to fight Greivous. Better than Vapaad.

Incidentally that novel was written by Stover himself.

Add this to the fact that Galen switched between Juyo and Soresu, and I think we can safely assume Soresu is better at what it focuses on(pure defense) than Juyo is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Oh yeah I just remembered Vapaad can't possibly have all soresu incorporated in it, because Mace tells Obi-Wan in the ROTS novel that Soresu is the best form to fight Greivous. Better than Vapaad.

Incidentally that novel was written by Stover himself.

Add this to the fact that Galen switched between Juyo and Soresu, and I think we can safely assume Soresu is better at what it focuses on(pure defense) than Juyo is.

In LoE, Windu says that Obi-Wan is best equipped to deal with Grevious, because Grevious' Battle Computer has already had a chance to analyze Vapaad.

There were plenty of Jedi to fight Grevious who used Soresu and lost, among them Luminara Unduli.

Windu's implication was that Kenobi the fighter, was the best chance they had besides Mace himself, and Yoda.

Also, if I remember correctly, Windu and Yoda were needed elsewhere.

If Juyo/Vapaad didn't have the defensive aspects of Soresu incorporated into it, it simply wouldn't be the deadliest lightsaber Form - not with a defense easy to exploit.

It's somewhat obvious Form 7 does have elements from all previous Forms for aforementioned reasons.

When official Canon comes out, stating it does not contain Soresu, then we'll have our definitive answer. 😎

Originally posted by Battlemaster
In LoE, Windu says that Obi-Wan is best equipped to deal with Grevious, because Grevious' Battle Computer has already had a chance to analyze Vapaad.

There were plenty of Jedi to fight Grevious who used Soresu and lost, among them Luminara Unduli.

Windu's implication was that Kenobi the fighter, was the best chance they had besides Mace himself, and Yoda.

Also, if I remember correctly, Windu and Yoda were needed elsewhere.

If Juyo/Vapaad didn't have the defensive aspects of Soresu incorporated into it, it simply wouldn't be the deadliest lightsaber Form - not with a defense easy to exploit.

It's somewhat obvious Form 7 does have elements from all previous Forms for aforementioned reasons.

When official Canon comes out, stating it does not contain Soresu, then we'll have our definitive answer. 😎

I disagree that just because it doesn't have the whole of Soresu incorporated into in that would make Juyo/Vapaad's defense somehow weak.

It has Form 5 incorporated into it which has a great defense. And TFUI states a Juyo user would eventually get through the defenses of a Soresu user, which means it can penetrate the defenses of any form(as Soresu has the best defense of all the forms) so Juyo clearly is the deadliest form.

I've also seen no eveidence Form 7 it has the whole of Makashi incorporated into it. (Which btw is still referred to as the "Ultimate" duelling form). For that matter Jar Kai doesn't seem to be incorporated into it either. Galen from TFUII has learned Jar Kai as an extra on top of what the Original Galen knew.

So my guess would be high end master "multiple forms" would be forms 4-6 . Obviously everyone learns form 1 anyway. Whilst 6 has the basics from all the forms. I know from TFUII Galen was trained in Niman.

As for what Mace said it was in the ROTS novel written by Stover him self. He says the form itself is best suited to fight against Grievous's particular style.

It doesn't mean every Soresu master would defeat Grievous, they may not be powerful enough. Nor does it mean Mace or Yoda can't defeat Grievous. They obviously can (just with the Force alone).

But it does show Vapaad does not have ALL of Soresu incorporated into it. If it did then Grievous would have fully analyzed Soresu by default when he analyzed Vapaad. And Mace Windu wouldn't say "The Master" of Soresu would fair better in a sword fight against GG than "The Creator" of Vapaad.

As for official canon... Well it's already been answered from the above quote of Mace (written by Stover) as well as the TFU which has Galen switching from Juyo back to Soresu when on the defense.

So like I said "mutiple forms" must mean just that. Mutiple, not all. Probably froms 4 and onwards. But definetely no eveidence of the Whole of Soresu and Makashi being incorporated into it. Canonicity actually points to the contrary.

Edit- More evidence of Makashi not being fully incorporated in Juyo- Dooku out fences Sora Bulq without difficulty. He's also fought Mace off in Obsession, and has canonically been stated to have bested Mace in Saber sparring in the past.

Also Shaak Ti gave Galen serious difficulty with her combination of Makashi and Ataru. And she obviously wasn't as powerful as Galan either.

None of this would be possible if Juyo had The WHOLE of Soresu AND Makashi fully incorporated into it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I disagree that just because it doesn't have the whole of Soresu incorporated into in that would make Juyo/Vapaad's defense somehow weak.

It has Form 5 incorporated into it which has a great defense. And TFUI states a Juyo user would eventually get through the defenses of a Soresu user, which means it can penetrate the defenses of any form(as Soresu has the best defense of all the forms) so Juyo clearly is the deadliest form.

I've also seen no eveidence Form 7 it has the whole of Makashi incorporated into it. (Which btw is still referred to as the "Ultimate" duelling form). For that matter Jar Kai doesn't seem to be incorporated into it either. Galen from TFUII has learned Jar Kai as an extra on top of what the Original Galen knew.

So my guess would be high end master "multiple forms" would be forms 4-6 . Obviously everyone learns form 1 anyway. Whilst 6 has the basics from all the forms. I know from TFUII Galen was trained in Niman.

As for what Mace said it was in the ROTS novel written by Stover him self. He says the form itself is best suited to fight against Grievous's particular style.

It doesn't mean every Soresu master would defeat Grievous, they may not be powerful enough. Nor does it mean Mace or Yoda can't defeat Grievous. They obviously can (just with the Force alone).

But it does show Vapaad does not have ALL of Soresu incorporated into it. If it did then Grievous would have fully analyzed Soresu by default when he analyzed Vapaad. And Mace Windu wouldn't say "The Master" of Soresu would fair better in a sword fight against GG than "The Creator" of Vapaad.

As for official canon... Well it's already been answered from the above quote of Mace (written by Stover) as well as the TFU which has Galen switching from Juyo back to Soresu when on the defense.

So like I said "mutiple forms" must mean just that. Mutiple, not all. Probably froms 4 and onwards. But definetely no eveidence of the Whole of Soresu and Makashi being incorporated into it. Canonicity actually points to the contrary.

[b]Edit- More evidence of Makashi not being fully incorporated in Juyo- Dooku out fences Sora Bulq without difficulty. He's also fought Mace off in Obsession, and has canonically been stated to have bested Mace in Saber sparring in the past.

Also Shaak Ti gave Galen serious difficulty with her combination of Makashi and Ataru. And she obviously wasn't as powerful as Galan either.

None of this would be possible if Juyo had The WHOLE of Soresu AND Makashi fully incorporated into it. [/B]

And by the same token, long before Grevious battled Kenobi or Windu, he defeated a prominent Master of Soresu in combat, Luminara Unduli.

Therefore, Grevious had already analysed Soresu, as well. Making a "Soresu user" irrelevant to a battle.

Mace could have beaten Grevious a second time if he had to, but he was needed elsewhere, and it was Kenobi's turn at the plate.

Dooku's outfencing of Sora Bulq had more to do with his innate talent as a swordsman, than with the Form he used.

Remember when he fought Anakin and Obi-wan at the same time?
Makashi is weak against multiple opponants, so just going off of things stylistically, he should have had the disadvantage - but his overall skill with a blade was the determining factor.

As much - Djem So isn't superior to Makashi as a sword-fighting art - and yet Anakin mutilated Dooku?

It's also about innate skill overall - not just said art.

Lastly, one more time, the writers of The Force Unleashed are Retards who have no greater knowledge of the lightsaber Forms than some of the novice Star Wars fans on the net.

And again, once they come out with a source stating that Form 7 doesn't have elements of Soresu, then we'll have the definitive answer.

- Now I'm moving on to other threads - Feel free to comment on Luke Skywalker versus Darth Bane, or Kar Vastor versus Shimrra.

Peace. 😎

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Mace could have beaten Grevious a second time if he had to, but he was needed elsewhere, and it was Kenobi's turn at the plate.

Of course Mace would be a far better warrior to take down Grievous. As would Anakin and Yoda for that matter. No one's arguing that.

But this doesn't change the fact that Mace feels Soresu is a superior form to tackle Grievous's style than Vapaad. He obviously wouldn't state that if Vapaad had All of Soresu incorporated into it, and to a higher degree.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Dooku's outfencing of Sora Bulq had more to do with his innate talent as a swordsman, than with the Form he used.

Remember when he fought Anakin and Obi-wan at the same time?
Makashi is weak against multiple opponants, so just going off of things stylistically, he should have had the disadvantage - but his overall skill with a blade was the determining factor.

As much - Djem So isn't superior to Makashi as a sword-fighting art - and yet Anakin mutilated Dooku?

It's also about innate skill overall - not just said art.

Agreed on that.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Lastly, one more time, the writers of The Force Unleashed are Retards who have no greater knowledge of the lightsaber Forms than some of the novice Star Wars fans on the net.

Nevertheless it is a canon source. And I've yet to see a canon source which states Vapaad to contain the Whole of All the previous forms combined 😕

Originally posted by Battlemaster
And again, once they come out with a source stating that Form 7 doesn't have elements of Soresu, then we'll have the definitive answer.

Well that's never going to happen. Your asking them to prove a negative, when it's the positive that need's to be proven i.e. Vapaad does have ALL of Soresu incorporated into it.

But Mace's words written by Stover himself would certainly point to the contrary. And of course your already denying any evidence presented by TFU. So not sure exactly what kind of evidence you're looking for.

I believe you on the rest though. Just not convinced about Soresu or Makashi. I highly doubt Mace's,Galen's and Maul's technical skill as applied to pure fencing exceeds that of Count Dooku's. And I also doubt Mace's, Galen's and Maul's pure defending skill with a Saber exceed's Obi Wan Kenobi's.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
- Now I'm moving on to other threads - Feel free to comment on Luke Skywalker versus Darth Bane, or Kar Vastor versus Shimrra.

Peace. 😎

Well this thread really should get back to Maul vs Vader.

Which btw all your arguments about Form 7 would only contribute to Maul winning the Saber fight 😛

Originally posted by Battlemaster

I think the Clone is the same guy, though?

Plus, Vader probably did better the next time around, not because the Clone was weaker, but because Vader was possibly more prepared.

Well you were right about this. Vader was said to be more prepared and fighting more cautiously than the last time. He also learned from that fight.

His Saber defenses are said to be impenetrable (probably due to all the Soresu he has included in his refined version of Djem So)..

Anyway as for the first fight Starkiller still won it without too much difficulty via a force lightning strike.. But he hesitated to kill Vader..

But honestly Vader used his TK throughout the fight so hard from that fight to tell how a Sabers only fight would go.

But will get to their second fight tonight, the one where Vader's supposed to give him hell.

If it's a Pure Saber duel, then Maul definetely wins.

Lastly, one more time, the writers of The Force Unleashed are Retards who have no greater knowledge of the lightsaber Forms than some of the novice Star Wars fans on the net.

The fighting style of every character reflects their personality on first place.

^ Still taking forms into account or not, all sources have Maul as a fast, agile and acrobatic warrior whose Skills as a Sword master are peerless.

Whilst Vader's been said by multiple sources (including Lucas himself) to be a slow severely restricted in mobility and speed due to his Cybernetic limbs.

So I say Maul comfortably beats down Vader in a Saber only fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Still taking forms into account or not, all sources have Maul as a fast, agile and acrobatic warrior whose Skills as a Sword master are peerless.

So I say he comfortably beats down Vader in a Saber only fight.