Avengers Vs JLA (plus reserves)

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm not sure what your rational behind the first part of this post is. Hyperspace is a pseudo scientific term created for science fiction that attempts to rationalize greater than light speeds by up shifting the person / space ship / whatever into a theoretical new dimension. Anytime something hits greater than light speed travel, they are in hyperspace.

It stated that his mind couldn't catch up to his brain (or vice versa)... whatever that means. Nova missed the deceleration by a split second, which when traveling at thousands of times greater than the speed of light is a massive margin of era, and then he had trouble compensated and adjusting because he was extremely disoriented for some reason.

The rest of the book, that wasn't included in the scans, explains why that comment was made and just what it means exactly in the context of the story. The Worldmind regulates Nova's reaction time and perception, so that when he doesn't need to react to anything, his mind slows down. The reasoning being that even if a person could move at speeds greater than light, if they also perceived the world around them at the same speed - which they would need to in order to navigate - that relative to their own perspective it would take them just as long as anyone else to get anywhere or get anything done. How long would it talk you or I to walk to China? Realistically... it should take Flash the same amount of time relative to his perception of reality. That would be enough to drive a person insane... now imagine the same thing except the distance is 80,000 light years. Time isn't weird in hyperspace, the Worldmind simply speeds up and slows down Nova's mind, so that he only has the reactions when he needs them and doesn't have to spend an eternity flying through space in his own mind.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, but we've people flying and acting FTL in normal space too. That's nothing new, gl rings does that all the time. I dont think anyone would call a gl speedster? That's hyperspace travelling and it can't be used as a combat speed feat.

No one would call a GL a speedster because there isn't on panel narration that directly stats their reaction time is increased to allow them to navigate at speeds far exceeding light speed. You are caught on the term hyperspace like it means something, all it means is the character up shifted into a higher dimension that allows for the possibility of FTL travel because the normal dimensions don't. Hyperspace isn't real, it's a theoretical explanation that attempts rationalize the ability to move faster than light with scientific laws of the universe. You might not be explicitly told in the narration but if a character is moving FTL they are probably in Hyperspace...

We separate travel speed and combat speed because most writers don't bother to give us an explanation of the delineation of the two, but in this particular case Mark Waid explained exactly what was happening.

I have scans of GL's reacting and fighting at high speeds

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No one would call a GL a speedster because there isn't on panel narration that directly stats their reaction time is increased to allow them to navigate at speeds far exceeding light speed. You are caught on the term hyperspace like it means something, all it means is the character up shifted into a higher dimension that allows for the possibility of FTL travel because the normal dimensions don't. Hyperspace isn't real, it's a theoretical explanation that attempts rationalize the ability to move faster than light with scientific laws of the universe. You might not be explicitly told in the narration but if a character is moving FTL they are probably in Hyperspace...

We separate travel speed and combat speed because most writers don't bother to give us an explanation of the delineation of the two, but in this particular case Mark Waid explained exactly what was happening.

You need to read more comics, seriously. Hyperspace is a real concept in comics that allows characters to travel in space. It isn't allowed in combat feats because then we would have silver surfer reacting millions of lightyears in seconds level speed, nearly every space based character would be far faster than lightspeed based upon travel speed in hyperspace.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I have scans of GL's reacting and fighting at high speeds

Originally posted by abhilegend
And? How does that disqualifies lanterns navigating in space? Do you mean that since there is no narration to suggest that their mental processes were increased, then they are flying blind in the asteroids and suns? I can show you a random gl acting in nanoseconds then.

You need to read more comics, seriously. Hyperspace is a real concept in comics that allows characters to travel in space. It isn't allowed in combat feats because then we would have silver surfer reacting millions of lightyears in seconds level speed, nearly every space based character would be far faster than lightspeed based upon travel speed in hyperspace.

And now you've touched up on the problem a lot of people have trouble grasping when they first join a comic forum and learn we separate travel speed from combat speed, that it logically it makes little sense. If a character can fly at the speed of light, the would need to have reflexes to match it or like you side they would be essentially flying blind and unable to navigate... that should translate over into combat speed, but we've seen thousands of times that it doesn't. Normally writers don't bother to address travel speed and how it works and why it's so drastically different that what that character is capable otherwise, but in this particular case were expressly told what is happening and Waid explains how it works in great detail. It is stated clear as day in the narration that the Worldmind can increase Nova's reaction time to compensate for him traveling thousands of times faster than the speed of light. That's his reaction time, not his flight speed.

You seem to be under the impression that traveling in hyperspace somehow... what... innately increases the reflexes a person there? It doesn't. The concept of Hyperspace is incredibly simple, you can't go faster than the speed of light in the three dimensions we exist in, so the character enters a higher dimension where that speed is possible. That's it. It's not magic.

Travel speed vs combat speed is a legitimate argument, I think. I would agree though, if someone can run at super speed in normal space (not hyperspace), then they can fight at that speed too. Moving your legs really fast means you can move the rest of your body at a comparable speed. BUT, if someone has to enter hyperspace to travel FTL, then they would also have to prove to have FTL combat speed separately, IMO.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Travel speed vs combat speed is a legitimate argument, I think. I would agree though, if someone can run at super speed in normal space (not hyperspace), then they can fight at that speed too. Moving your legs really fast means you can move the rest of your body at a comparable speed. BUT, if someone has to enter hyperspace to travel FTL, then they would also have to prove to have FTL combat speed separately, IMO.

Everyone needs to enter Hyperspace to hit FTL. That's what Hyperspace is. If a character is moving FTL, they are in Hyperspace.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And now you've touched up on the problem a lot of people have trouble grasping when they first join a comic forum and learn we separate travel speed from combat speed, that it logically it makes little sense. If a character can fly at the speed of light, the would need to have reflexes to match it or like you side they would be essentially flying blind and unable to navigate... that [b]should translate over into combat speed, but we've seen thousands of times that it doesn't. Normally writers don't bother to address travel speed and how it works and why it's so drastically different that what that character is capable otherwise, but in this particular case were expressly told what is happening and Waid explains how it works in great detail. It is stated clear as day in the narration that the Worldmind can increase Nova's reaction time to compensate for him traveling thousands of times faster than the speed of light. That's his reaction time, not his flight speed.

You seem to be under the impression that traveling in hyperspace somehow... what... innately increases the reflexes a person there? It doesn't. The concept of Hyperspace is incredibly simple, you can't go faster than the speed of light in the three dimensions we exist in, so the character enters a higher dimension where that speed is possible. That's it. It's not magic. [/B]

No, hyperspace is a medium in comics which allows characters to travel across space without explaining how they can navigate at that speed. People explicitly slower than lightspeed have entered hyperspace, byrne superman pushed a ship towing earth and moon simultaneously through hyperspace.

You can't seem to grasp that these travelling feats in hyperspace=/=combat feats. This isn't magic.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it isn't. If you have the reaction time of thousands of times lightspeed you can't have hit a planet by an error of split-second, that's like years for a guy with that kind of reflexes. We also were told by the same guy that his mind can't catch what worldmind was feeding in his mind and he can't feel what time has passed.

No, hyperspace is a medium in comics which allows characters to travel across space without explaining how they can navigate at that speed. People explicitly slower than lightspeed have entered hyperspace, byrne superman pushed a ship towing earth and moon simultaneously through hyperspace.

You can't seem to grasp that these travelling feats in hyperspace=/=combat feats. This isn't magic.

Read the issue again. He was programmed to slow down when he detected Earth's gravity, but what happened is that his mind slowed down before his body decelerated, and the slow down process disorientated him and he was unable to control his landing. That's all clearly illustrated by the spinning blades of the helicopter, which start out spinning in a blur but become stationary as he starts to regain his composer and tries to regain control.

How could you have so much trouble understanding such a simple concept? He was traveling in space for 5 weeks, but it seems like 5 minutes to him because the Worldmind is regulate his perception of time and space

That's not what Hyperspace is. It's simply a higher dimension in which FTL is possible. That's it. The moment anyone hits FTL speeds they are in Hyperspace, because "regular" space doesn't allow for that possibility FTL speeds. It's not a worm hole, stargate or a mass relay.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Strange > Fate

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Witch > Zatanna

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nova > Firestorm

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Everyone needs to enter Hyperspace to hit FTL. That's what Hyperspace is. If a character is moving FTL, they are in Hyperspace.

Yeah, maybe in the real world you can't go FTL in normal space. Not in comics. How is Superman rebuilding a city faster than light when he's in hyperspace? Hyperspace is another dimension. To be rebuilding a city in this dimension, one would have to BE IN this dimension.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Yeah, maybe in the real world. Not in comics. How is Superman rebuilding a city faster than light when he's in hyperspace? Hyperspace is another dimension. To be rebuilding a city in this dimension, one would have to BE IN this dimension.

In the real world Hyperspace doesn't exist. This is going to get far too complicated for my journey man understanding of quantum physics and string theory to explain. Suffice to say that by accessing a higher dimension doesn't move Superman (or whoever) into a different reality or universe, if it did Nova would have no need to for the Worldmind to regulate his speed as he would simple be out of phase with everything around him and navigation around obstacles wouldn't matter all that much. We normally exist and perceive the world in three dimensions, with the fourth being time. If we equate Hyperspace and time (the first being a hypothetical 5th dimension for the sake of this discussion, and the latter being the forth), if someone had control over time that wouldn't remove then from the other three dimensions they exist in, it just also include them in a forth. Same thing goes for Hyperspeed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Everyone needs to enter Hyperspace to hit FTL. That's what Hyperspace is. If a character is moving FTL, they are in Hyperspace.

This will be true for Marvel U, Not for DC U their rules of physics are different.

You don't need anything greater than human level perceptions to travel at lightspeed in space.

Space is vast, and light is slow as shit in space.

30+ minutes just to travel the distance from jupiter and earth, depending on their respective positions at the time.

So yeah, mere lightspeed would be difficult to navigate with in the vastness of space. And it would take speeds significantly, significantly greater than lightspeed for someone to require lightspeed+ perception speed to navigate comfortably.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In the real world Hyperspace doesn't exist. This is going to get far too complicated for my journey man understanding of quantum physics and string theory to explain. Suffice to say that by accessing a higher dimension doesn't move Superman (or whoever) into a different reality or universe, if it did Nova would have no need to for the Worldmind to regulate his speed as he would simple be out of phase with everything around him and navigation around obstacles wouldn't matter all that much. We normally exist and perceive the world in three dimensions, with the fourth being time. If we equate Hyperspace and time (the first being a hypothetical 5th dimension for the sake of this discussion, and the latter being the forth), if someone had control over time that wouldn't remove then from the other three dimensions they exist in, it just also include them in a forth. Same thing goes for Hyperspeed.

LOL. Wow. Not sure where you get from my post that hyperspace exists in reality. For the record I also don't believe the dark dimension or the phantom zone exist either. Yeah, in the REAL WORLD, you need to warp space somehow to travel FTL in theory, but not in comic books.

And you're really trying to use the physics of string theory and quantum mechanics to explain how Superman can rebuild a city FTL? You're just making yourself look stupid. Here's the simple explantion:

Superman is NOT IN HYPERSPACE WHILE HE'S REBUILDING THE CITY. He's simply moving FTL IN OUR DIMENSION. (yeah, that's impossible in our world, but so is demolecularizing people with a thought, and so is a giant guy in a purple helmet eating a planet. So is breathing and talking in space).

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Read the issue again. He was programmed to slow down when he detected Earth's gravity, but what happened is that his mind slowed down before his body decelerated, and the slow down process disorientated him and he was unable to control his landing. That's all clearly illustrated by the spinning blades of the helicopter, which start out spinning in a blur but become stationary as he starts to regain his composer and tries to regain control.

How could you have so much trouble understanding such a simple concept? He was traveling in space for 5 weeks, but it seems like 5 minutes to him because [b]the Worldmind is regulate his perception of time and space

That's not what Hyperspace is. It's simply a higher dimension in which FTL is possible. That's it. The moment anyone hits FTL speeds they are in Hyperspace, because "regular" space doesn't allow for that possibility FTL speeds. It's not a worm hole, stargate or a mass relay. [/B]

So you're saying this isn't an example of superman entering hyperspace?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersa-1.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersb-1.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersc-1.jpg

I thought it was clear that there were many methods of FTL travel in comics.

As far as I know, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but to travel across space really fast, guys like Gladiator and SS enter hyperspace when they cross the galaxy in seconds. If they are in hyperspace, they can't be throwing punches while they're in there. Superman, on the other hand, is in normal space when he's running or flying super fast. So if he can move his legs that fast, he can throw a punch that fast.

Originally posted by biensalsa
This will be true for Marvel U, Not for DC U their rules of physics are different.

Even in the DC U, I would say the same rule applies, even if it is a accomplished via the Speed Force. The Speed Force is a vaguely defined extra dimensional energy, presumably - and ideally - in order to rectify the two concepts the dimension the Speed Force comes from would be the same that people tap into when they hit FTL and enter "Hyper Space." It's not super important though, it is all just a means to circumvent to laws of physics and still maintains some sort of order.