Originally posted by OneDumbG0If you want to argue consistency in opinions, go to the General vs Gladiator thread and talk it out.
^ Same exact vapid discussion. Superman-type vs superbrick. Just different when it's Superman we're discussing. aka Superdoppler Effect.Don't let it chafe.
As it is, "say the same thing about Gladiator vs General" bitchfest isn't a valid argument for why Hulk can contend with Superman's speed.
Stop being a whiny moron.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaNo such thread to my knowledge.
If you want to argue consistency in opinions, go to the General vs Gladiator thread and talk it out.As it is, "say the same thing about Gladiator vs General" bitchfest isn't a valid argument for why Hulk can content with Superman's speed.
Stop being a whiny moron.
Sure it is. Because you (and others) won't explain why DC superbricks get the benefit of the doubt against Superman or Superman-types when it comes to matchups... but Marvel superbricks don't get any.
Stop being an obvious hypocrite. /shrug
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Actually, no, it isn't. Because you're not bringing arguments for why Hulk contends with Superman's speed, you're conceding that he doesn't, but say it isn't fair because "You're not consistent and you should say the same thing about Gladiator vs General!".
No such thread to my knowledge.Sure it is. Because you (and others) won't explain why DC superbricks get the benefit of the doubt against Superman or Superman-types when it comes to matchups... but Marvel superbricks don't get any.
Stop being an obvious hypocrite. /shrug
That's not arguing for Hulk, that's crying about the other side being a big ugly meanie.
As I said, if you feel this isn't consistent, make Gladiator vs General, and talk about why it's the same thing there. This is Superman vs Hulk.
The battle gladiator had vs hulk is a comic book fight. It has a huge asterix as a win for the hulk.
Though eiling is no hulk, i cant give an exact answer but i belive in a non comic book fight gladiator will defeat the hulk, not because the hulk is not strong, but because gladiator will not fight like an idiot.
Originally posted by biensalsa
The battle gladiator had vs hulk is a comic book fight. It has a huge asterix as a win for the hulk.Though eiling is no hulk, i cant give an exact answer but i belive in a non comic book fight gladiator will defeat the hulk, not because the hulk is not strong, but because gladiator will not fight like an idiot.
You avoided the question. Would you like to talk about this through PM so that we will not derail the thread? PM on the way.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaYes, it is. Because the same reasons that Hulk fanboys think that Hulk could have a chance against Superman's speed is probably the same reason that DC superbrick fans of Doomsday/Lobo/General fans think they'd have a chance against Superman's speed.
Actually, no, it isn't. Because you're not bringing arguments for why Hulk contends with Superman's speed, you're conceding that he doesn't, but say it isn't fair because "You're not consistent and you should say the same thing about Gladiator vs General!".That's not arguing for Hulk, that's crying about the other side being a big ugly meanie.
As I said, if you feel this isn't consistent, make Gladiator vs General, and talk about why it's the same thing there. This is Superman vs Hulk.
No, that's just trying to point at the common ground here shared by two seemingly diametrically opposed sides. Except you've deluded yourselves into thinking you don't share that common ground. You do.
As I said, if you feel there is no inconsistency, then explain it and shut the inquiry down. It's an honest inquiry after all. Your invitation is rejected. Because, frankly, based on your backseat modding here, I will fully expect you or someone else to waddle in there and be furious about Superman or Hulk inconsistencies being brought up in a Gladiator vs. General thread.
Or revert to type and don't explain it. You don't have to after all. Just don't get your panties in a bunch when your omgwtfbbq superspeedblitz arguments get shortcircuited.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Actually, no, it isn't. Because you're not bringing arguments for why Hulk contends with Superman's speed, you're conceding that he doesn't, but say it isn't fair because "You're not consistent and you should say the same thing about Gladiator vs General!".That's not arguing for Hulk, that's crying about the other side being a big ugly meanie.
As I said, if you feel this isn't consistent, make Gladiator vs General, and talk about why it's the same thing there. This is Superman vs Hulk.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Actually, no, it isn't. Because you're not bringing arguments for why Hulk contends with Superman's speed, you're conceding that he doesn't, but say it isn't fair because "You're not consistent and you should say the same thing about Gladiator vs General!".That's not arguing for Hulk, that's crying about the other side being a big ugly meanie.
As I said, if you feel this isn't consistent, make Gladiator vs General, and talk about why it's the same thing there. This is Superman vs Hulk.
Originally posted by carver9
Hulk hits speedsters all of the time and this isn't Flash that he's fighting here, this is Superman.
This isn't a defense though. And there aren't many people between Flash and Superman, reaction-wise.
The Gladiator example is something we do have to consider. I'd point out that flight speed isn't reaction speed, and most certainly doesn't translate 1:1 between the two. I've seen the flight times for Gladiator, but I haven't seen anything specifically reference a timeframe for his reactions. Do those feats exist?
Let me put it to you this way: do you believe Hulk's reaction times are in the pico/nanoseconds? Or do you think the Gladiator fight was PIS, him brawling and not using the speed he has displayed? Because we have to grant Superman those reaction times, he's displayed them in combat way too many times to discount as bad writing. And the words nanosecond and picosecond are explicitly used to describe the feats. If you think Hulk is at that speed, fine. If you don't, you're in somewhat of a logical corner by not granting Superman such speeds relative to Hulk.
Originally posted by carver9
You avoided the question. Would you like to talk about this through PM so that we will not derail the thread? PM on the way.
Im on mobile and working, I will discuss that with you in here i have no problem giving my stance on what you ask, but all bricks are not the same on paper they might look the same, but they are not.
But have to keep working in the meantime
Originally posted by Digi
This isn't a defense though. And there aren't many people between Flash and Superman, reaction-wise.The Gladiator example is something we do have to consider. I'd point out that flight speed isn't reaction speed, and most certainly doesn't translate 1:1 between the two. I've seen the flight times for Gladiator, but I haven't seen anything specifically reference a timeframe for his reactions. Do those feats exist?
Let me put it to you this way: do you believe Hulk's reaction times are in the pico/nanoseconds? Or do you think the Gladiator fight was PIS, him brawling and not using the speed he has displayed? Because we have to grant Superman those reaction times, he's displayed them in combat way too many times to discount as bad writing. And the words nanosecond and picosecond are explicitly used to describe the feats. If you think Hulk is at that speed, fine. If you don't, you're in somewhat of a logical corner by not granting Superman such speeds relative to Hulk.
Nano seconds...
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/68/39597113mf8.jpg/
Every fight Gladiator had been in he use his speed, including against the Hulk. Hulk just have super speed...him hitting speedster has been something that has been shown to be consistent with the character, he was even described as being Quicksilver fast and displayed super speed while jumping out of orbit and creating sonic booms.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, it is. Because the same reasons that Hulk fanboys think that Hulk could have a chance against Superman's speed is probably the same reason that DC superbrick fans of Doomsday/Lobo/General fans think they'd have a chance against Superman's speed.No, that's just trying to point at the common ground here shared by two seemingly diametrically opposed sides. Except you've deluded yourselves into thinking you don't share that common ground. You do.
As I said, if you feel there is no inconsistency, then explain it and shut the inquiry down. It's an honest inquiry after all. Your invitation is rejected. Because, frankly, based on your backseat modding here, I will fully expect you or someone else to waddle in there and be furious about Superman or Hulk inconsistencies being brought up in a Gladiator vs. General thread.
Or revert to type and don't explain it. You don't have to. Just don't get your panties in a bunch.
This thread isn't about my or "this side"'s consistency. If you feel we're being inconsistent, make a Gladiator vs General thread, discuss our opinions there, and point out the inconsistency.
As it is, how I, or anybody else would analyze Gladiator vs General has no bearing on the actual discussion, and isn't a valid argument for the actual match, except for it being a personal attack on me and others.
If you feel I'm backseat moderating, we could call a moderator and clear this up for you.
Because I grow tired of pointing out the obvious, and you going "BUH BUH Gladiator vs General! Hypocrites!!".
You're trying to derail the discussion into another one. Again. Stop this idiocies.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Im on mobile and working, I will discuss that with you in here i have no problem giving my stance on what you ask, but all bricks are not the same on paper they might look the same, but they are not.But have to keep working in the meantime
I don't want to derail this thread.
Originally posted by DigiDoomsday, Lobo, General, etc. didn't need those speeds to
This isn't a defense though. And there aren't many people between Flash and Superman, reaction-wise.The Gladiator example is something we do have to consider. I'd point out that flight speed isn't reaction speed, and most certainly doesn't translate 1:1 between the two. I've seen the flight times for Gladiator, but I haven't seen anything specifically reference a timeframe for his reactions. Do those feats exist?
Let me put it to you this way: do you believe Hulk's reaction times are in the pico/nanoseconds? Or do you think the Gladiator fight was PIS, him brawling and not using the speed he has displayed? Because we have to grant Superman those reaction times, he's displayed them in combat way too many times to discount as bad writing. And the words nanosecond and picosecond are explicitly used to describe the feats. If you think Hulk is at that speed, fine. If you don't, you're in somewhat of a logical corner by not granting Superman such speeds relative to Hulk.
Nobody taking that position tends to place people in one of two camps: (i) the "DC superbricks that fought Superman = superspeedsters automatically" camp; or (ii) "DC superbricks haven't done anything Marvel superbricks haven't done, and sometimes less... so if DC superbricks can fight Superman, so can Marvel superbricks."
I find it hard to swallow the first proposition (no homo) because of the subjective double-standards. The second one seems awfully convenient, but then again it's based on comics.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaOh, please. I'm not going to start a bait thread.
This thread isn't about my or "this side"'s consistency. If you feel we're being inconsistent, make a Gladiator vs General thread, discuss our opinions there, and point out the inconsistency.As it is, how I, or anybody else would analyze Gladiator vs General has no bearing on the actual discussion, and isn't a valid argument for the actual match, except for it being a personal attack on me and others.
If you feel I'm backseat moderating, we could call a moderator and clear this up for you.
Because I grow tired of pointing out the obvious, and you going "BUH BUH Gladiator vs General! Hypocrites!!".
You're trying to derail the discussion into another one. Again. Stop this idiocies.
It's the same exact discussion. Superman-type vs superbrick. Just because you refuse to bear down on the outright obvious similarities, doesn't mean that discussion of the hypocrisy has nothing to do with anything. It's Superman-types vs superbricks. You not believing that Lobo gets superspeedblitzed before he even knows he gets into a fight with Superman bears on your reasoning that Hulk falls victim.
Don't get so upset that your omgwtfbbq superspeedblitz arguments always come up against this wall. Insipid shallow arguments invite insipid shallow rebuttals. Anyway, I didn't bring up superspeedblitzes. You did.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doomsday, Lobo, General, etc. didn't need those speeds toromptake Superman on. I cannot honestly recall a single poster ever announcing that Superman wrecks the crap out of those guys with superspeedblitzes and that he simply doesn't do so every time in comics because he was just jobbing (but this is a forum fight so no jobbing allowed!!!11).Nobody taking that position tends to place people in one of two camps: [b](i)
the "DC superbricks that fought Superman = superspeedsters automatically" camp; or (ii)[//b] "DC superbricks haven't done anything Marvel superbricks haven't done, and sometimes less... so if DC superbricks can fight Superman, so can Marvel superbricks."I find it hard to swallow the first proposition (no homo) because of the subjective double-standards. The second one seems awfully convenient, but then again it's based on comics.
The double standards aren't on my part, then. I've never weighed in on those guys vs. Superman. And while I don't know enough to say definitively which of your A-or-B scenario is true, I think it's equal folly to throw out a well-established speed level for Superman. Honestly, it's just as possible that the discussion here hinges upon your interpretation of such events, and whether you subscribe to the DC Superbrick theory or not.
There's a 3rd possibility as well, though, and it's that those fights weren't well written, nor was Hulk v. Gladiator (which also grants Gladiator Superman-level reactions, which I'm assuming for the sake of the argument but haven't seen proven). That Superman has super speeds (which we can be quite sure he does) but can't always use them due to story.
Because I think one of the takeaways from the Hulk backers is that Hulk lacks independent feats of speed to match Kal, but the claim has to be via proxy (in this case, Doomsday, Gladiator feats, and other similar ones). And forums thrive on feat-based arguments, whereas comics can be more subjective in their remembrance of powers and abilities. And I still haven't seen enough to suggest to me that Hulk has the speed to win in a forum fight.
Originally posted by DigiExactly. And what some people seem to be offended by is treating a Marvel superbrick the same way a DC superbrick is treated.
The double standards aren't on my part, then. I've never weighed in on those guys vs. Superman. And while I don't know enough to say definitively which of your A-or-B scenario is true, I think it's equal folly to throw out a well-established speed level for Superman. Honestly, it's just as possible that the discussion here hinges upon your interpretation of such events, and whether you subscribe to the DC Superbrick theory or not.
Originally posted by DigiThat should equally apply to Superman vs. DC superbrick fights also. So that should already have been accounted for in all scenarios. I doubt you're suggesting that only Marvel superbrick fights are written poorly. carver9 posted the Gladiator/Hyperion nanosecond combat feat earlier, no?
There's a 3rd possibility as well, though, and it's that those fights weren't well written, nor was Hulk v. Gladiator (which also grants Gladiator Superman-level reactions, which I'm assuming for the sake of the argument but haven't seen proven). That Superman has super speeds (which we can be quite sure he does) but can't always use them due to story.
Originally posted by DigiBased on how static everybody is trying to make these characters for a "forum fight" (as if such notion is completely divorced from what comics portray) I haven't seen Doomsday, Lobo, General, Konvikt, etc. have a single picosecond or nanosecond feat to their name either. For me though, I just can't honestly disregard the many comics that show them giving Superman a hard time. Moreover, I can't just ignore that most people don't care that Doomsday, Lobo, General, Konvikt, etc. don't have such feats and never demand them. So if I'm going to discuss this matchup with someone who seems to be treating a Marvel superbrick differently than a DC superbrick, I think it's fair for me to ask why. And when they backhandedly reply that they're doing no such thing, I think it's fair for me to roll my eyes.
Because I think one of the takeaways from the Hulk backers is that Hulk lacks independent feats of speed to match Kal, but the claim has to be via proxy (in this case, Doomsday, Gladiator feats, and other similar ones). And forums thrive on feat-based arguments, whereas comics can be more subjective in their remembrance of powers and abilities. And I still haven't seen enough to suggest to me that Hulk has the speed to win in a forum fight.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Superman and Gladiator aren't interchangeable. Hulk and Lobo, or the General aren't interchangeable, either. Calling them 'Superman-lite vs bricks' doesn't make it otherwise.
It's the same exact discussion. Superman-type vs superbrick. Just because you refuse to bear down on the outright obvious similarities, doesn't mean that discussion of the hypocrisy has nothing to do with anything. It's Superman-types vs superbricks. You not believing that Lobo gets superspeedblitzed before he even knows he gets into a fight with Superman bears on your reasoning that Hulk falls victim.Don't get so upset that your omgwtfbbq superspeedblitz arguments always come up against this wall. Insipid shallow arguments invite insipid shallow rebuttals. Anyway, I didn't bring up superspeedblitzes. You did.
What your doing is a dumbed down version of ad hoeminem, attacking me and others by calling us hypocrites, but not tackling the actual arguments in favor of Superman squashing Hulk with his speed.
"I silently concede Superman is too fast for Hulk, but say the same about Gladiator vs General, because it's totally the same thing, hypocrites!"
That has no bearing on this thread, Superman vs Hulk, other than a superficial attempt to undermine our credibility, but not our actual arguments, by trying to divert it into to another discussion entirely, which you're pre-judging before it has even taken place, already telling our opinions and why people think the way they do "because it's a DC brick not a Marvel!!". Please.
Stop this shit, seriously.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaYour strawman's ineffectiveness is only equalled by it's incompetence. Superman has feats that place him on nanosecond speeds. So does Gladiator. Hulk doesn't. Far from it. General doesn't. Far from it. I don't need to patronize you any further on how obviously the analogy applies.
Superman and Gladiator aren't interchangeable. Hulk and Lobo, or the General aren't interchangeable, either. Calling them 'Superman-lite vs bricks' doesn't make it otherwise.What your doing is a dumbed down version of ad hoeminem, attacking me and others by calling us hypocrites, but not tackling the actual arguments in favor of Superman squashing Hulk with his speed.
You're so upset that I'm accusing you of being a hypocrite, then explain to me why you're not a hypocrite. Or let's discuss the issue and bear down on why Marvel fanboys shouldn't be taken to task for doing what DC fanboys are doing, giving a superbrick the benefit of the doubt based on comics portrayal even though there are no independent superspeed feats. Because that's what you're doing. Why Marvel fanboys don't get to is something that's never been sufficiently explained to me.
Of course, we could talk about how your inconsistencies regarding superspeed have absolutely nothing to do with... your arguments over... superspeed.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaI haven't silently conceded anything. Your propensity for assumptions here is somewhat surprising. Not in a good way.
"I silently concede Superman is too fast for Hulk, but say the same about Gladiator vs General, because it's totally the same thing, hypocrites!"That has no bearing on this thread, Superman vs Hulk, other than a superficial attempt to undermine our credibility, but not our actual arguments, by trying to divert it into to another discussion entirely, which you're pre-judging before it has even taken place, already telling our opinions and why people think the way they do "because it's a DC brick not a Marvel!!". Please.
http://madibathompson.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/in-one-ear-out-the-other.jpg
Stop this shit, seriously.
Credibility not of you. Credibility of the superspeedblitz argument you've forced onto the thread. You happened to bring up the superspeedblitz argument. Your petulance and arbitrary anger is completely misplaced. I'm sorry your superszpeedblitz argument makes little sense because of the glaring hypocrisies. That's not my fault and you shouldn't be angry with me.
I have no qualms about pressing this point. Just because it's so plainly obvious and some people take it so personally, doesn't mean it doesn't merit discussion. You seem to treat superspeed differently across companies. Either you don't (in which case Suerman superspeedblitzes 1,000,000 Hulks or Lobos easily with maybe only the last few thousand realizing they're in a fight), or you do. <--- That's what I find interesting. Not a personal attack. I just think that we share more common ground than you're ready to admit.
