Near Death Experience (NDE) and the Bible

Originally posted by Digi
See, these are legit questions. You're not too ignorant to consider them. Why you can't hold them up to your own beliefs is a mystery to me.

When I say what the Bible--the Word of God--says concerning the existence of a literal Hell, I am speaking in absolutes. But I do so by faith. I take the Bible as God's Word by faith.

How can I be so sure? Again, I believe what the Bible reveals about Hell by faith.

Have I died and seen the other side? No. But I believe the testimonies of many other people who have died and seen and experienced Hell. I have no reason to believe otherwise or to suspect fraud or falsehood. In fact, I am more inclined to believe these individuals for the simple fact that all of them have either become ministers of the gospel afterwards, or devout believers in Jesus Christ.

Is this something that I can substantiate? Again, it is a matter of my faith in the Bible. But the testimony of others' serves to corroborate my faith--which is not based on the senses.

Why should anyone believe me? I firmly believe that people should believe what the Bible reveals concerning Hell because they have nothing to lose by not believing in it. Secondly, it makes sense to me that wicked, sinful people should be judged for their sins. Third, according to the Bible Hell was created for the devil and his angels--not for humanity. This is satan's and his angel's just punishment for rebelling against God. If Hell did not exist then this universe's justice system would be a farce.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Are you speaking in absolutes?

How can you be so sure?

Have you died and seen the other side?

Is this something that you can substantiate?

Why should anyone believe you?

I never speak in absolutes.

I have died many time, but I only see this side. This is the only side with eyes. :-)

As much as you do.

Because it works.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
When I say what the Bible--the Word of God--says concerning the existence of a literal Hell, I am speaking in absolutes. But I do so by faith. I take the Bible as God's Word by faith.

How can I be so sure? Again, I believe what the Bible reveals about Hell by faith.

Have I died and seen the other side? No. But I believe the testimonies of many other people who have died and seen and experienced Hell. I have no reason to believe otherwise or to suspect fraud or falsehood. In fact, I am more inclined to believe these individuals for the simple fact that all of them have either become ministers of the gospel afterwards, or devout believers in Jesus Christ.

Is this something that I can substantiate? Again, it is a matter of my faith in the Bible. But the testimony of others' serves to corroborate my faith--which is not based on the senses.

Why should anyone believe me? I firmly believe that people should believe what the Bible reveals concerning Hell because they have nothing to lose by not believing in it. Secondly, it makes sense to me that wicked, sinful people should be judged for their sins. Third, according to the Bible Hell was created for the devil and his angels--not for humanity. This is satan's and his angel's just punishment for rebelling against God. If Hell did not exist then this universe's justice system would be a farce.

Ok, so you admit that it's based on faith. That's a good thing.

But, please recognize that you are speaking in absolutes. The same criticisms of shakya's argument can be brought against you, and your defense isn't based on evidence but faith. So in that sense, there's no reason to believe you over anyone else's beliefs.

On the point of: I believe the testimonies of many other people who have died and seen and experienced Hell. This is again a faith-based belief, and while you might think you're looking at evidence, all you're looking at is something you can't explain. I've shown how the affects of "Hell" can be, to a large extent, recreated simply by the brain in NDE situations. So not only do we not know for sure that they experienced Hell, but we have reason to believe that they might have experienced something very normal. The fact that they became Christians also means nothing. I'm not calling them liars, all I'm saying is that they don't know for sure what they experienced either.

The "nothing to lose" argument begets a longer discussion involving Pascal's Wager and a few other things, so I don't think I'll touch on it right now.

Originally posted by Digi
Ok, so you admit that it's based on faith. That's a good thing.

But, please recognize that you are speaking in absolutes. The same criticisms of shakya's argument can be brought against you, and your defense isn't based on evidence but faith. So in that sense, there's no reason to believe you over anyone else's beliefs.

On the point of: I believe the testimonies of many other people who have died and seen and experienced Hell. This is again a faith-based belief, and while you might think you're looking at evidence, all you're looking at is something you can't explain. I've shown how the affects of "Hell" can be, to a large extent, recreated simply by the brain in NDE situations. So not only do we not know for sure that they experienced Hell, but we have reason to believe that they might have experienced something very normal. The fact that they became Christians also means nothing. I'm not calling them liars, all I'm saying is that they don't know for sure what they experienced either.

The "nothing to lose" argument begets a longer discussion involving Pascal's Wager and a few other things, so I don't think I'll touch on it right now.

In my previous post I admitted that I was speaking in absolutes yet in your previous post you respond by telling me that I am speaking in absolutes. I'm not sure why you reaffirmed that I was speaking in absolutes because I never denied that I was.

Second, those were not criticisms of Shakyamunison's argument. Remember: I am not on here arguing with anyone. I am just spreading the Good News. I was merely giving Shakyamunison an opportunity to intelligently discuss his reasons why he believes that Hell is not a literal place in the afterlife as the Bible and many, many other people state.

I don't believe that anyone's testimony of Hell is evidence. I recall stating that their testimony serves to corroborate (i.e. support with authority or make more certain) my faith--which I have already established is based on the Bible.

I don't recall anyone ever recreating the torment of Hell by their brain.

You state that they don't know for sure what they experienced.

If ten people died and felt their spirit's descend into the depths of the earth, encountered the gates of Hell, exceedingly hot flames, all kinds of grotesque, demonic creatures, pain, darkness, the smell of sulphur, torture, as well as the recognizable souls of others who were once alive--but then by the grace of God made it back into their body's to live and tell about it, I think it stands to reason that these people are not all just having a bad, oxygen-deprived dream. There's too much continuity and congruency with what the Bible reports about Hell and their experiences which invariably match Biblical record.

Thanks for your time and patience Digi. I enjoy conversing with you.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
In my previous post I admitted that I was speaking in absolutes yet in your previous post you respond by telling me that I am speaking in absolutes. I'm not sure why you reaffirmed that I was speaking in absolutes because I never denied that I was.

Second, those were not criticisms of Shakyamunison's argument. Remember: I am not on here arguing with anyone. I am just spreading the Good News. I was merely giving Shakyamunison an opportunity to intelligently discuss his reasons why he believes that Hell is not a literal place in the afterlife as the Bible and many, many other people state.

I don't believe that anyone's testimony of Hell is evidence. I recall stating that their testimony serves to corroborate (i.e. support with authority or make more certain) my faith--which I have already established is based on the Bible.

I don't recall anyone ever recreating the torment of Hell by their brain.

You state that they don't know for sure what they experienced.

If ten people died and felt their spirit's descend into the depths of the earth, encountered the gates of Hell, exceedingly hot flames, all kinds of grotesque, demonic creatures, pain, darkness, the smell of sulphur, torture, as well as the recognizable souls of others who were once alive--but then by the grace of God made it back into their body's to live and tell about it, I think it stands to reason that these people are not all just having a bad, oxygen-deprived dream. There's too much continuity and congruency with what the Bible reports about Hell and their experiences which invariably match Biblical record.

Thanks for your time and patience Digi. I enjoy conversing with you.

This is the most cogent discussion I've ever had with you.

The way you present your arguments does make it sound like you're "doling out truth" instead of simply presenting ideas for consideration. And if you truly believe that it's just a personal faith, there's no reason to believe you over any other voice in the wind.

As for the accounts, I could get into selective bias, the fallibility of memory, and scientific research into NDE's to poke holes in your conviction in them - and I've done much of that in this thread - but it's much better if you do that thinking for yourself. Because for every faith-based belief that may or may not be harmless, there's overtly discriminatory beliefs (like some contained in many of your coveted Chick Tracts) that cause unneeded harm to people and bring evil into the world. And it's only when you learn to dissect even your own beliefs with a critical eye that you achieve the awareness necessary to be truly loving, rather than just a voice spouting a doctrine that been fed to him and is dogmatically accepted without considering the possibility of error.

As for torments of hell in the brain, the video I posted wasn't even that long, but contained some of this. Even in a small amount of research, people reported presences, demons, out-of-body experiences, etc. It doesn't amount to proof, but it amounts to another possible explanation.

Originally posted by Digi
This is the most cogent discussion I've ever had with you.

The way you present your arguments does make it sound like you're "doling out truth" instead of simply presenting ideas for consideration. And if you truly believe that it's just a personal faith, there's no reason to believe you over any other voice in the wind.

As for the accounts, I could get into selective bias, the fallibility of memory, and scientific research into NDE's to poke holes in your conviction in them - and I've done much of that in this thread - but it's much better if you do that thinking for yourself. Because for every faith-based belief that may or may not be harmless, there's overtly discriminatory beliefs (like some contained in many of your coveted Chick Tracts) that cause unneeded harm to people and bring evil into the world. And it's only when you learn to dissect even your own beliefs with a critical eye that you achieve the awareness necessary to be truly loving, rather than just a voice spouting a doctrine that been fed to him and is dogmatically accepted without considering the possibility of error.

As for torments of hell in the brain, the video I posted wasn't even that long, but contained some of this. Even in a small amount of research, people reported presences, demons, out-of-body experiences, etc. It doesn't amount to proof, but it amounts to another possible explanation.

Originally posted by Digi
This is the most cogent discussion I've ever had with you.

The way you present your arguments does make it sound like you're "doling out truth" instead of simply presenting ideas for consideration. And if you truly believe that it's just a personal faith, there's no reason to believe you over any other voice in the wind.

As for the accounts, I could get into selective bias, the fallibility of memory, and scientific research into NDE's to poke holes in your conviction in them - and I've done much of that in this thread - but it's much better if you do that thinking for yourself. Because for every faith-based belief that may or may not be harmless, there's overtly discriminatory beliefs (like some contained in many of your coveted Chick Tracts) that cause unneeded harm to people and bring evil into the world. And it's only when you learn to dissect even your own beliefs with a critical eye that you achieve the awareness necessary to be truly loving, rather than just a voice spouting a doctrine that been fed to him and is dogmatically accepted without considering the possibility of error.

As for torments of hell in the brain, the video I posted wasn't even that long, but contained some of this. Even in a small amount of research, people reported presences, demons, out-of-body experiences, etc. It doesn't amount to proof, but it amounts to another possible explanation.

Cogent? Likewise.

Actually, it’s really not me dolling out the truth. The Word of God is so powerful that it pierces like a two-edged sword. It is so sharp that it can distinguish between soul and spirit—although they are not identical.

Just because my faith is based on the Bible that does not negate the Truth of God’s Word, or somehow undermine its validity apart from my faith. The Word of God was/is true way before I started believing it. To me it’s not just personal faith, but a recognition or acknowledgement of the Truth. Just as a caboose hooks up to the already moving train, I hooked up to the Truth by faith, even though it was already absolute and self-contained.

The Lord Jesus instructs His followers not to look back once we’ve put our hands to the plow. It is not a matter of dissecting one’s beliefs as much as it is a matter of maintaining commitment to, and steadfast resolve for, one’s beliefs. The Bible states,

Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him! (Psalm 34:8)

Once you’ve experienced the Truth (i.e. Jesus Christ) that void of mystery is abundantly filled. You know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is everything that He says that He is, and there is nothing and no one that can change this.

So-called temporal lobe stimulated NDE’s do not produce the calm and love associated with real NDE’s. Besides, the circumstantial evidence in favor of an afterlife is staggering.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
...Besides, the circumstantial evidence in favor of an afterlife is staggering.[/COLOR]

Circumstantial evidence is NEVER staggering.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

I've always found this statement intriguing. It implies (imho) comparison, ie, that Jesus was aware of other 'ways'. What would he be refering to?

Originally posted by Mindship
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

I've always found this statement intriguing. It implies (imho) comparison, ie, that Jesus was aware of other 'ways'. What would he be refering to?

It is also very similar to what Buddha said, but not so absolute. However, we don't really know how absolute Jesus was.

http://www.almightywind.com/whatsnew/071112buddhist.htm

YouTube video

Ask Jesus Christ to reveal to you the Truth.

^ 😂 Even a Buddha can experience hell, but your video is a pile of...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is also very similar to what Buddha said, but not so absolute. However, we don't really know how absolute Jesus was.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.almightywind.com/whatsnew/071112buddhist.htm

YouTube video

Ask Jesus Christ to reveal to you the Truth.

Is the brain washing complete yet? lol

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Is the brain washing complete yet? lol

No, my mind is still dirty. 😈

Originally posted by Mindship
Nonetheless, apparently my question made JIA uncomfortable. Bummer. I really wanted to get his opinion since he seems pretty knowledgeable about this stuff.

Hey Mindship! How are you doing?

I didn't respond because honestly I don't know how you were able to infer that Jesus implied anything other than what He said.

What happened was the Lord Jesus was preparing His disciples for His departure after His impending death on the cross.

The Lord told His disciples that in His Father’s house are many mansions and that He was going to prepare a place for them (the Lord actually says “you” as though He were talking to one person, but more than one disciple is present so He’s talking to all of them).

The Lord goes on to tell His disciples that they both know “where” He is going and the “way” (i.e. how to get there)

Thomas (one of the Lord’s disciples) replied that they (i.e. he and the other disciples) do not know where He (Jesus) is going, and how can they know the way.

At this point the Lord Jesus responded with perhaps one of the most controversial statements in history:

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Full context:

John 14:1-6

1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Hey Mindship! How are you doing?

I didn't respond because honestly I don't know how you were able to infer that Jesus implied anything other than what He said.

What happened was the Lord Jesus was preparing His disciples for His departure after His impending death on the cross.

The Lord told His disciples that in His Father’s house are many mansions and that He was going to prepare a place for them (the Lord actually says “you” as though He were talking to one person, but more than one disciple is present so He’s talking to all of them).

The Lord goes on to tell His disciples that they both know “where” He is going and the “way” (i.e. how to get there)

Thomas (one of the Lord’s disciples) replied that they (i.e. he and the other disciples) do not know where He (Jesus) is going, and how can they know the way.

At this point the Lord Jesus responded with perhaps one of the most controversial statements in history:

[b]6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Full context:

John 14:1-6

1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. [/B]

Thanks, JIA.

Originally posted by Mindship
Ah. I knew you'd have an answer that made more sense than what I'd been told in the past. In past discussions (my younger, pre-KMC days), I seem to remember Christians interpreting Jesus' statement as meaning no other religious paths (ie, the ones we know today) will lead to God. And while I accept that you do feel this way, it was hard for me to see how that particular statement could be used to support that position.

Thanks, JIA.

That is precisely what Jesus means.

No other religious paths will lead to the Father in Heaven.

Originally posted by Mindship
Ah. I knew you'd have an answer that made more sense than what I'd been told in the past. In past discussions (my younger, pre-KMC days), I seem to remember Christians interpreting Jesus' statement as meaning no other religious paths (ie, the ones we know today) will lead to God. And while I accept that you do feel this way, it was hard for me to see how that particular statement could be used to support that position.

Thanks, JIA.

The New Testament also says that others will be saved by what laws they had to abide by. So there are definitely multiple ways of "salvation" as long as you live your life as you think is proper/moral. Could you really say God is omnibenevolent if only a few select lucky people were saved? Even Jesus Christ said the atonement was for everyone. 🙂

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That is precisely what Jesus means.

No other religious paths will lead to the Father in Heaven.

No, this is wrong. What Jesus Christ is saying is that everyone is saved by his atonement and no other. He is not saying that no other religious paths will lead to the Father in Heaven.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, this is wrong. What Jesus Christ is saying is that everyone is saved by his atonement and no other. He is not saying that no other religious paths will lead to the Father in Heaven.

This reading of the line makes a lot more sense as an answer to the question Thomas asks.