Which is better: Avengers or The Dark Knight?

Originally posted by NemeBro
What "practical" military weapons (Aka so not nukes or MOABs) have shown to rival Thor's power output? The Javelin certainly is pussy shit in comparison.

Dude, the Javelin is a freaking man-portable missile, you're right it is pussy shit in comparison to a "real" missile.

Which particular attack did Thor show in the Avengers did you feel was the best?

For me it was the lightning he summoned on Stark Tower. That attack was just frying the ships, it didn't destroy it on impact or anything that impressive from a destructive standpoint.

You don't think the kinetic energy from 10 or 50 or 100 or 1000 missiles would've been greater?

Here is just what ONE can do:

YouTube video

YouTube video

Remember, ONE.

That's besides the point anyway, we aren't discussing US vs Avengers.

What do you mean by "practical"? The US would use any and all force necessary to eliminate the threat.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Hulk also sort of halted the forward momentum of one of the leviathans with a punch. Those things were like flying multi-story buildings. Only probably heavier. Hulk's punch would have had a force in I'm guessing the multiple thousands of tons. Aka much stronger than a few RPGs.

Ok, so Hulk's punch was strong...?

I've already addressed this red herring several times... what the Avengers displayed is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. The discussion is the military could've defeated the aliens.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course that's an issue. Sure we can destroy aliens and ourselves and pretty much everything all day with Nukes.

No that is the point, and no nukes are necessarily.

What are you arguing exactly?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You still haven't proved or quantified how much force it would take to destroy even One Levathian Vessel.

"Still" haven't? Did you ask me to?

Maybe you should do that. Seems reasonable right?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

When we're talking Nukes it won't just be "more" casualties. Your talking about mass murdering a large US Population, just to take out the first Wave of Alien forces.

If you haven't noticed, I have been talking about non-nuclear avenues for quite a while now. Nuke is still an option though. And no, that's not called "mass murdering".

Right now I'm just pointing out errors in your post, I don't know how to reply to you because I don't even know what you are arguing for.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

How exactly?

Already answered.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Where will the Nuke be shot from exactly?

And will it be precise enough to go through the portal, from where ever it was shot from?

Could be shot from many places. Yes it is precise enough.

Lol, you know by asking questions like this it shows how unaware you are of US's military weapons and technology?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You mean the whole Chinese military would be a larger threat than one wave of aliens with only one narrow portal to come through. Sure.

Glad you agree.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

What's next guys, the Military didn't need the help of the Autobots in Transformers because they could Nuke, or Carpet Bomb any city the Deceptacons go to 😉

Decepticons would've ripped the Chitauri apart. Blackout alone took out a military base. Thanks for demonstrating my point.

Again, what EXACTLY are you arguing for, or are you just mad people have criticisms of the film? I honestly don't think you have a position, you're just keen on disagreeing with whatever you read.

Originally posted by Placidity
No that is the point, and no nukes are necessarily.

What are you arguing exactly?

That the military could not have defended the city. Only blown the city to Kingdom Come. Which still would not have stopped more reinforcements coming through.

Loki could have just opened the portal in another city. No where on Earth would be safe.

Originally posted by Placidity
"Still" haven't? Did you ask me to?

Maybe you should do that. Seems reasonable right?

LOL Your the one claiming they would be no match for the US Military!

So I think if your going to claim that, you should present proof of how easily they would be destroyed by military weapons.

Originally posted by Placidity
If you haven't noticed, I have been talking about non-nuclear avenues for quite a while now. Nuke is still an option though. And no, that's not called "mass murdering".

You've got to be a military brat to claim that's not mass murder.

Originally posted by Placidity
Right now I'm just pointing out errors in your post, I don't know how to reply to you because I don't even know what you are arguing for.

What's so difficult to understand? Your arguing Mass Destroy the city. Which wouldn't do anything except kill a few Chitari soldiers and mass murder an entire city.

You haven't even proven that would destroy their most powerful vessels.

That doesn't stop Loki opening a portal anywhere else in the world Yes you can destroy that city too. Loki will laugh in your face as you just go around destroying all your own cities.

Originally posted by Placidity
Already answered.

What by shooting a Nuke there? I thought you just claimed your not talking about Nukes anymore??

Originally posted by Placidity
Could be shot from many places. Yes it is precise enough.

Lol, you know by asking questions like this it shows how unaware you are of US's military weapons and technology?

So are you saying the Shield agent could have just shot the Nuke into the hole? Well I'd say that's more of a reasonable plot hole to bring up than the ones your bringing up.

Yes I'm accepting your knowledge of military capability. What I'm not accepting is your notion that the Avengers were not needed because we could just Destroy the city?!

And I definitely don't agree with your military brat training telling you throwing a Nuke is NOT MASS MURDER.

I'm sure if a terroist group Nuked your home city in "defense of their homeland" you would call it just that.

Originally posted by Placidity
Decepticons would've ripped the Chitauri apart. Blackout alone took out a military base. Thanks for demonstrating my point.

Yeah big claims from a guy who still hasn't proven how much firepower it would take to destroy their ships.

And no, I don't have to ask you to prove that. Your making the claim, so you should at least have the sense to provide proof of your claim especially when I'm not the first person to bring up that they may not be able to destroy one of those Larger vessels.

Originally posted by Placidity
Again, what EXACTLY are you arguing for, or are you just mad people have criticisms of the film? I honestly don't think you have a position, you're just keen on disagreeing with whatever you read.

Actually I think it's you whose getting mad at the idea that the Military isn't Invincible.

Yes the military has a lot of mass destroying power. Doesn't help you do much.

Cant' save the city like that.

The whole idea that the Avengers wern't required because WMD's could wipe out the city is just a retarded observation.

But one I'd expect from someone who claims Nuking a populated city is Not Mass Murder!

Originally posted by Bardock42
lol ide

I definitely agree? 😐

Originally posted by Placidity Dude, the Javelin is a freaking man-portable missile, you're right it is pussy shit in comparison to a "real" missile.

Which particular attack did Thor show in the Avengers did you feel was the best?

For me it was the lightning he summoned on Stark Tower. That attack was just frying the ships, it didn't destroy it on impact or anything that impressive from a destructive standpoint.

You don't think the kinetic energy from 10 or 50 or 100 or 1000 missiles would've been greater?

You are aware that lightning bolts aren't exactly known for their whopping kinetic energy, right?

And Thor's two best feats are the Jotunheim smash from Thor, and the lightning spray, for two different reasons.

And it one-shot three of the leviathans and kept any more aliens from emerging from the portal.

Here is just what ONE can do:

YouTube video

YouTube video

Remember, ONE.

Thor's Jotunheim smash and lightning spray are frankly more impressive.

That's besides the point anyway, we aren't discussing US vs Avengers.

What do you mean by "practical"? The US would use any and all force necessary to eliminate the threat.

The United States despite the movie's insistence isn't actually all that keen on firing missiles on their own cities, though sure I guess they could go ahead and do that.

But would that actually close the portal?

Ok, so Hulk's punch was strong...?

I've already addressed this red herring several times... what the Avengers displayed is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. The discussion is the military could've defeated the aliens.

Very strong, yes.

The aliens were destroying a city within an hour, and would have succeeded were it not for the Avengers holding the line.

Would the nuke have bewmed the alien threat? Maybe. But the aliens would have poured out in greater numbers with virtually no resistance for a good while were it not for the Avengers boyo.

I love it when people who literally don't know shit about the military or its capabilities making sweeping gestures about it.

Stay losing, KMC. Stay losing.

Pretty sure the purpose of The Counsel deciding to launch a nuke was to illustrate the threat level the aliens posed; you certainly don't nuke if the National Guard can handle the situation.

Originally posted by Robtard
Pretty sure the purpose of The Counsel deciding to launch a nuke was to illustrate the threat level the aliens posed; you certainly don't nuke if the National Guard can handle the situation.

exactly

Originally posted by Robtard
Pretty sure the purpose of The Counsel deciding to launch a nuke was to illustrate the threat level the aliens posed; you certainly don't nuke if the National Guard can handle the situation.

Originally posted by Placidity
I don't get it, the fact that a character in the film states something means we as the audience have to throw away our rational thinking? They resorted to nuking the city because it was the easiest solution when dealing with unknown entities. The military could have handled it fine.

Again, I just felt the aliens should've been stronger. Nick Fury does give a strong impression (or outright says it) that it would surely be an global apocalyptic threat. The statement and what was shown don't match in my view. I never felt the world at danger, or any Avenger for that matter except for Black Widow when Hulk was about to squash her. Why people feel the need to indomitably challenge that I will never understand (other than its their precious).

Originally posted by NemeBro
You are aware that lightning bolts aren't exactly known for their whopping kinetic energy, right?

Actually that is exactly what lightning is when it strikes...

Originally posted by NemeBro

And Thor's two best feats are the Jotunheim smash from Thor, and the lightning spray, for two different reasons.

Well the smash wasn't featured in The Avengers, therefore was not necessary for victory. I've already discussed the lightning arc.

Originally posted by NemeBro

The United States despite the movie's insistence isn't actually all that keen on firing missiles on their own cities, though sure I guess they could go ahead and do that.

Actually in the film they went one further with a nuke.

Originally posted by NemeBro

But would that actually close the portal?

Hard to say. SHIELD would figure it out IMO.

Originally posted by NemeBro

And it one-shot three of the leviathans and kept any more aliens from emerging from the portal.

I don't believe it did. The leviathans were not destroyed in that sense, they were getting "fried". And Aliens definitely did make it through in spite of the lightning. Also I don't know why you call it "one-shot" when he was continuously using that attack.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Thor's Jotunheim smash and lightning spray are frankly more impressive.

Wow. I'm assuming (hoping) you meant more impressive than ONE of those missiles. I explicitly reminded you of that TWICE, in bold. So you believe any one of Thor's attacks would do more damage than any number of missiles the US can deliver (excluding nukes and MOAB)? I am eager to debate with you on this in Movie Vs.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Very strong, yes.

Don't you mean very very strong, or very very very strong? Pointless.

Originally posted by NemeBro

The aliens were destroying a city within an hour, and would have succeeded were it not for the Avengers holding the line.

It's possible you are right. I don't recall arguing that.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Would the nuke have bewmed the alien threat? Maybe. But the aliens would have poured out in greater numbers with virtually no resistance for a good while were it not for the Avengers boyo.

No, the nuke should've been shot through the portal to begin with, wiping them out. As I said SHIELD would've likely dealt with the portal.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only probably heavier. Hulk's punch would have had a force in I'm guessing the multiple thousands of tons.

Much less than that.

A hundred to a couple of hundred tonnes of force (tonne-force).

Originally posted by marwash22

Using the performance of Widow, Hawkeye and Cap as reasoning as to why the military would have been enough is ridiculous because the military is not comprised of thousands of master assassins and super soldiers; the military is a bunch of regular dudes with guns. 😬 Also, Widow, Cap and Hawkeye did fine against the individual aliens, but not one of them did (or could have) taken out even one of the Leviathans. Ordinary military personal would have fared much worse than those three did.

[/B]

When strangers debate on the internet, the topic quickly loses its focus or intention. The entire debate started with Marwash stating that Widow, Hawkeye & Cap alone WERE a BETTER match against the aliens compared to what the military could do.

It was never about COMPARING the ENTIRE AVENGERS with the US Army Versus the Chitauri.

The faults I pointed out w/Marwash was that Widow went into battle armed with ONLY a single handgun against the aliens. There was no suggestion whatsoever in the movie that she carried any more ammunition than what was already loaded in her gun. Her costume lent no hint that she carried multiple clips.
Hence once she ran out of bullets, she was pretty much useless....COMPARED to a military force that carried x-amount of ammunition, not to mention various arsenals, NOT JUST HAND GUNS.

The same with Hawkeye...once he ran out of arrows, all he had was his bow to whack out the aliens AS OPPOSED to a military force armed with x-amount of weapons & ammunition.
It was lucky for Hawkeye that he ran out of arrows towards the END OF THE MOVIE & NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BATTLE/INVASION otherwise he would've been rooted.

Although both Widow & Hawkeye were trained assassins, they were still humans & the film did show they were both becoming exhausted & over whelmed by the sheer numbers of the aliens COMPARED to a relentless attack by the military.

The same with Cap. He throws his shield inside the building then gets blown out the window onto the street before he has a chance to retrieve the shield...HENCE he was weaponless against the aliens. Lucky the focus then went on to IronMan chasing the nuke....OTHERWISE you'd have a weaponless Cap, Widow & Hawkeye, all three exhausted to stand ground against the aliens.

This is why I said to Marwash that it was pretty farfetched that he thought these 3 Avengers alone were better than a military force.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So you genuinely think a bunch of rpgs was a more impressive arsenal than what Tony could bring to bear?

Maybe RPGs was the wrong type of weapon to compare to Iron Man's arsenal....

(I make no claim that I'm familiar with the names/terms of today's military arsenal)

I'm just stating the obvious in Iron Man's suit design. Everything is compact, there is little room to carry & store a multitude of projectiles.

Seriously how many mini-missiles do you think he can carry on each shoulder before it becomes a ridiculous notion?

Just saw this post:

Originally posted by -Pr-
So you genuinely think a bunch of rpgs was a more impressive arsenal than what Tony could bring to bear?

Oh yeah, for sure. There's no doubt. What Stark can bring pales greatly in comparison to a bunch of RPGs. Stark is one "person" with limited arsenal. His repulsers are quite awesome, but aren't as destructive as a single RPG.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm confused, what exactly would the army have done?

You guys do realize that was just the first wave of the alien invasion right?

All BW and CA were doing was dealing with the ground troops. Yes a whole army of US troops would be better, but where were they? They can't just instantly teleport there. And by the time they got there in big enough numbers, the Aliens numbers would have been too much.

I think it would have taken way too much fire power of the military to take down even 1 Levathian ship.

And Lol @ Iron Man's arsenal being weaker than standard military arsenal!

Oh and nice call about Nuke's being us saying we'd rather die than be enslaved.. Yeah easy for the guy pulling the trigger to say!

But I'm sure the people in the city would prefer the Avengers defeating the Aliens then the damn military coming in and Nuking them all! Lol

Yes, it was the 1st wave. That's all the movie focussed on.
And it was a pretty lame invasion...no mass killings of civilians, minimal property damage.The chitauri just seemed content to hang off the sides of the buildings & get picked off.

As far as where were the troops....well it was a tangent Whedon obviously didn't want to use.
But compare it to Cloverfield, ID4 & possibly Battle LA...the troops were able to "materialise" within hours of the invasion. I mean in Cloverfield, where do you get a battalion of tanks into the heart of New York within hours of that creature turning up?

As for those Leviathan ships...they were clearly living reptilian creatures covered in armour plating used as a transport vehicle.
The plating had gaps exposing their flesh, especially when the Chitauri was being deployed.
Any type of ammunition would have injured them.

And my point of Iron Man's arsenal IS NOT that it's weaker than a standard military army...my point is Iron Man is limited to the amount he can carry compared to the army.

Lastly, the term "nuclear detergent", the threat of it clearly worked in the 1st Transformers, The Sum Of All Fears, Hunt For Red October, James Bond...the number of other movies is endless in theme. While in real life & history, the dropping of an atomic bomb on Hiroshima (killing innocents) kinda prove its point...and yeah a guy did push a button/pull a lever to make that happen.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Just saw this post:

Oh yeah, for sure. There's no doubt. What Stark can bring pales greatly in comparison to a bunch of RPGs. Stark is one "person" with limited arsenal. His repulsers are quite awesome, but aren't as destructive as a single RPG.

And to think, I once had respect for you. 🙁

Originally posted by Esau Cairn

As far as where were the troops....well it was a tangent Whedon obviously didn't want to use.
But compare it to Cloverfield, ID4 & possibly Battle LA...the troops were able to "materialise" within hours of the invasion. I mean in Cloverfield, where do you get a battalion of tanks into the heart of New York within hours of that creature turning up?

Hours?! The city would have been destroyed in hours. And who knows how much of the alien army's big guns would have got through in Hours!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Just saw this post:

Oh yeah, for sure. There's no doubt. What Stark can bring pales greatly in comparison to a bunch of RPGs. Stark is one "person" with limited arsenal. His repulsers are quite awesome, but aren't as destructive as a single RPG.

I seriously doubt Stark's weapons are designed to bring mass destruction.

But in terms of targeted most penetrating power? Stark will have the best.

Are people really trying to say a simple RPG is better then the Avengers?

The whole point of the movie was to show that the normal Earth military would have been useless.

Fury specifically states they are out gunned.

But besides that let's look at Ironman he has weapons that can destroy tanks easily, yet Jarvis specifically says he has nothing that can dent a Leviathan's armor so he has to go inside and blow it up that way, and he is equipped with the most advanced and dangerous weaponry developed by man in the film.

Hulk has shown he can take heavy fire from airplanes, RPGs rather easily.

Loki himself was bullet proof.

The whole point was that it took everything the Avengers could muster including ****ing huge amounts of lightning and Hulk to remotely contain the Alien Force, and had they not been able to close the portal they would have been over run.

Like i didn't see this happening, people nit picking the shit out of the Avengers movie.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Like i didn't see this happening, people nit picking the shit out of the Avengers movie.

Actually its some people being so defensive that's dragged this out into a full debate. If people can't accept any criticism or even let others hold that view then that's quite indicative of something isn't it.

Simple comments like "aliens should've been stronger" hardly need to be attacked. No movie is perfect, ANY movie review contains criticisms, so unless you thought The Avengers was 10/10, you shouldn't accuse others of "nit-picking", it makes you sound like a fanboy, and that type of attitude is just going to make this discussion even more antagonistic (and thats to everyone).

Originally posted by Newjak
Are people really trying to say a simple RPG is better then the Avengers?

No, and blatant strawman statements like that aren't helping. I see many people don't even know what is being discussed, firing off arguments while blind and a lot of time just being wrong.