Originally posted by BloodRain
Ah.....that means thats not the normal Superman, right?
I believe it is a Superman taken before the Crisis of Infinite Earths. It can be seen in canon in some perspectives but it is definitely a non-canon Superman.
Allstar Superman is related to Superman Prime. The relation is not quite clear but it could be a Hypertime connection.
@Bloodrain...
I can tell you don't read much Superman ...if any and you base your judgment of the character based on things you've seen spread across the internet. It's crazy that you really believe a Super Nova is the only thing capable of killing him when he died by much less and has been koed by much less.
Example...
Konvikt doesn't have a single lifting ft that puts him at planetary strength, let alone, city level, mountain level, etc, etc...but he was able to do this to Superman with a single punch.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13851254
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13851255
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13851258
I can bring up Titus one shotting him but what's the point since I know it doesn't take a solar system, moon busting, city destroying punch to take him out.
I can bring up Kalibak taking him out but again, what's the point since I know Kalibak can't destroy a planet, let alone generate the force of a freaking super nova.
You are relying too much on space cheese fts. Look at the fights he is in and get a average of what it takes to drop each character. Fts are nice at times but you have to look at everything as a hole.
Another example...Gladiator. He is a guy that has punched planets to dust, ripped black holes in apart with his bare hands, cracked moons with his fist...ripped a star in half...
But yet he is getting destroyed by Colossonaut and Namor who doesnt have a single ft comparable to what Gladiator has done on panel or things that people have seen him do.
Bloodrain...you are better than this...I know you are. Looking st fights and power from both, Goku completely annihilates him.
@Carver: Haha.. I don't read /any/ comics man. If this Kon guy can tangle with Superman, powerscaling says his strength is at the right level.
A few Star system feats, tons of feats from fighting people with planet+ strength, and a few feats from characters that may or may not have strength at Superman's level. Thats not only ignoring the high-end feats, but also the constant planatary ones in favour of low-end feats from characters whose strength is likely near Superman's.
But as said, to not be bias you'll have to use averages from DB too. We've see the kind of attacks that put them down; Namek's destruction, hitting Cell with a blast, Cell's suicide bomb, Kid Buu blowing up the planet. Major events all showing that the strongest character are being killed by things at a planet busting level. (And unlike the random ones you chose for Superman, these ones are solid for being major plot elements.)
So we know they're not taking these planet busting attacks, what can they take on average? That would be this. This is the strongest physical feat in DB by SS3Gotenks. And as you know the only characters stronger than him are MGohan, Buutenks/Buuhan and SSVegito. Meaning that that level of strength, which is only Multi-city block in terms of damage, is able to routinely damage high tiers on a large and deadly scale. SSVegito would physically be above this at a Town leveled.
Superman constantly fights people at his planet busting strength. Anyone below SSVegito and Buuhan can be one-shotted by anyone with Town busting punches.
^These are both the averages you're asking for. Planet > Town.
@Bloodrain...
You are going to have to do better than that. Lol...you clearly know Goku is a high class 100 so what's the point of asking for lifting fts when we both know Anime characters doesn't focus on moving cities or planets.?
Wonder Woman doesn't have close to the lifting fts Superman has but the guy that one shotted Superman, Wonder Woman was able to hang with him AND defeat him. I don't even have to focus on lifting space cheese fts to crush your lame argument.
Example...
Let's use Gladiator because I am not going to sit here and post scans of Superman being koed by mere punches, punches that didn't even level a nearby building or kill the humans that was around them. You're asking me for lifting fts, I show you a person that doesn't even have a single lifting ft under his belt koing Superman and you disregard it. I know Goku can
hhurt Superman with his fist because he is a high class 100 before even going Super Saiyan. Space cheese fts doesn't change this, its me knowing comic books.
Let's start with my examples...
Gladiator has swam through a gas giant...something that dwarfs a sun heat and size.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/starmj3.jpg/
Gladiator tanks a blast so powerful that it had enough force to wipe out half of an entire solar system. He doesn't just tank it, he contains it. Contains it to the point that it creates another star.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/wtfshipmh5.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/370/wtfship2tj8.jpg/
Then after tanking it he flies to the earth at 100 times the speed of light.
Let's continue...
Gladiator physically destroys a freaking planet with his fist.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/367/destroyingworld1wl5.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/354/destroyingworld2dh8.jpg/
So far we have learned that Gladiator can rip black holes with his bare hands, we have learned that Gladiator can withstand a blast that could have leveled an entire solar system, we have learned that he can destroy planets with his fist, collapse stars with his bare hands, fly at 100 times the speed of light, etc, etc...
Let's see how he fairs in fights. I just posted scans of the phoenix 5...people that doesn't even have a single lifting ft comparable to his beating him in a fist fight.
Cannonball, someone who isn't even a high class 100 absorbs a punch from Glads and redirect it, stunning him.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/69403167as4.jpg/
A weakened Hulk that was dying nearly kills him.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/361/71917903eb6.jpg/
This doesn't include him being stunned by living lightning, had his arm broken by a guy that doesn't have a single strength ft under his belt or these space cheese fts you tend to cling to. ON AVERAGE, looking at fights, from both of these characters, Vegeta can take on Superman and Gladiator at the same time and mud stomp them...black hair Goku. You don't just look at space cheese fts,you also look at the overall performance of fights, etc...using your logic of dbating, Superman and Gladiator would beat Galactus ins a fist fight since he doesn't have a single lifting ft under his belt.
Net only crashes on long KMC posts. I'm seeing a pattern here >__>
@Carver: The hell are you showing me SuperMohawk? Why not.. so this guy has;
1. He got attacked by a pissed off Hulk who can get to Planet+ levels. Not a negative.
2. IIRC that stun was from a guy who's powers potentially get to Thor's level, Planet+. Not a negative, especially as its only a stun.
3. Getting punched by someone who has the power to redirect the kinetic energy of his attack back at himself. Not a negative. Actually more of a positive seeing as it shows that he can take hits from his own strength, which you proved to be planetary.
That didnt really prove anything.
Oh, and Wonder Woman pulled the Earth with Supes and J'onn. And to note, it takes 6x the energy to pull a planet than it takes to destroy one.
I believe you're missing the point of what average means. If we must, Superman's average would be from his constant battles with characters that have the same strength as him. Wonder Woman, J'onn, Captain Marvel, Orion, Etrigan, Supergirl, Bizzaro, Darkseid, Doomsday, Cyborg Superman. All these characters either have their own planetary strength feats or constantly rival Superman's own strength. Clark being able to constantly fight, take hits from and knock around these people.. multiple fights and multiple hits, is evidence enough that his /average/ is Planetary. Stop ignoring everything for some low-end feats that you can't even explain.
------------------------------------------
Lets get back to the other point. How can a base Vegeta or Goku physically harm Superman? SS3Gotenks has the greatest physical feat which is Multi-city block in destruction. And as we know; Base Goku/Vegeta <x50 SSGoku/SSVegeta <x2 SS2Goku/MjVegeta <x4 SS3Goku = SSGotenks <x8 SS3Gotenks.
So how will base Vegeta, being drastically weaker than SS3Gotenks who is physically far below Town busting, be able to harm Superman?
If you're saying it for Supes the same must apply for DB, right? So by your methods DB are on average below Town busting. Not really that impressive.
Originally posted by carver9
@Nemebro...Everything isn't based off of lifting fts...once you learn this the better off you would be.
I can't help but notice you have gone through this entire thread without providing any evidence of Goku having superior striking strength to Superman.
Bantha got your tail carver?
Oh, you wanna know what lifting feats does apply to? Grabbing and choking characters. Superman could easily choke Goku out with one hand.
Flying through space doesn't equal combat speed. Goku combat speed is far greater imo. This was proven when King Ki was able to track Goku ship through space when he was flying to planet Namek. Goku ship flew from one solar system to another in 6 days, far faster than light and King Ki was able to track it and easily. This same Ki used the same technique he used to track Goku ship during the Frieza and Goku fight but they was moving so fast that he was unable to keep up with them. This isn't the only instance proving Goku is faster than light. Goku outpacing solar energy and there are other instances as well.
Maybe King Kai's capacity to track flying through space speed was just greater than his ability to track combat speed? 馃檪
No but, it is in fact easier to use your cosmic awareness to track a single, much larger, space ship (One that gives off a lot of light while flying by the way) than it is to focus on two beings flying.
Also, scans? I for the life of me can't actually remember either instance you are discussing.
Oh, and Superman was able to travel from Earth to nearly the center of the universe in a short amount of time while chasing Superboy Prime. Superior.
What planetary strength fts does Thor and Supes have?
馃槓
馃槵
What, are you serious?
Dude, what the **** is wrong with you?
Thor has his feat of lifting Jormungrr (Who could wrap around Earth), and nearly tilted Earth from its axis arm-wrestling Hercules, as well as physically matching or even besting characters with planetary strength.
Superman has moved planets with some aid multiple times (Once with only the aid of GL, once with WW and Martian Manhunter), pulled the Mageddon Mechanism, etc.
WTF? Thor would get blitzed like hell from any DBZ fighter and you overhyping him doesn't change this. Even the most hardcore Thor fans doesn't believe Thor can counter a blitz from Goku.
Those Thor fans don't know as much about Goku as I do. 馃檪
Oh, and, can you read? I am beginning to doubt it. I directly acknowledged that Thor's speed feats and ability to counter speed is inconsistent, even by normal comic standards, so said I wouldn't argue his speed. Jerkface.
Lol...Goku and Frieza were near equals during their fight in all categories and Frieza withstood the Kamehameha times 20. Let's not forget what the kameha times 1 was capable of...it had enough force to destroy earth...do the math.
Prove it had enough power to destroy Earth.
This doesn't even change the fact that Roshi had enough power to shed a moon but Roshi best attack wouldn't even register to someone like Nappa
This is gonna be funny.
or Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga had enough power to shed Earth but his energy output wouldn't even tickle a Super Saiyan let alone the black hair Goku that fought Frieza.
Vegeta wasn't proven to be capable of actually destroying a planet as of the Saiyan Saga. Him stating, in a frantic and enraged state of mind, that he would "turn the planet to ash" is just a character statement.
And this will indeed be funny.
Average showings, Goku is FAR more powerful, faster, more durable, and stronger than Superman...you throwing off high fts isn't aiding or changing this.
Yeah no.
Time for the butthurt.
Roshi at a power level of 137 destroyed the moon. As a service to you, I will go ahead and accept this, despite it probably being an outlier at the time of the manga.
It takes about 1.162e+29 Joules of energy to destroy a body of mass the size of the moon (Someone could probably provide more accurate numbers, but this is the ballpark).
So, how much energy does it take to destroy Earth?
2.24e+32 joules.
That's a difference of almost two thousand times as much.
So, if you want to go by power levels, one would have to have a PL of nearly 274,000 to bust Earth. Only... PLs have never scaled linearly in every fashion. Ever. It's how Recoome can for example have a higher PL than Burter, but be much slower. It's just a nearly random ranking. So the only character we can safely say is a planet-buster after Roshi is Freeza, whether first to Final Form.
Now, how does a single supernova compare to destroying the planet?
1-2脳1044 Joules.
That's a difference of about 1,000,000,000,000. Now multiply that by 52. 52,000,000,000,000.
And you think Goku is more durable than Superman, lol.
You should know the instance where Babidi said Goku had this type of energy output.
Shut up and post the scan.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I believe it is a Superman taken before the Crisis of Infinite Earths. It can be seen in canon in some perspectives but it is definitely a non-canon Superman.Allstar Superman is related to Superman Prime. The relation is not quite clear but it could be a Hypertime connection.
That is indeed considered to be Pre-Crisis Superman, Grant Morrison stated as much, and isn't really canon to New Earth Superman (Assuming this is post-Flashpoint Superman is stupid, **** Effect).
It's all but stated in the comic that All-Star Superman becomes Superman Prime.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Don't worry Pr, I think I scared him off.Why don't you ever partake in the carver smashing? You know far more about Superman than I.
Because sadly, it's circular with Carver. He'll bring something up, i'll disprove it, and a month or two later he'll bring up the exact same thing like it's never been addressed before.
And he thinks he gets away with it.
