(Revenge of the Sith) Darth Sidious -vs- Darth Bane (Dynasty of Evil)

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Aren't those Canon sources based upon the Opinions of different people, though?

No, it is actually stated by an out-of-the-universe source that Sidious is indeed the most powerful.

Originally posted by Major Valerian

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” - (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

This is written from a visual guide (which is not in-universe) making the statement valid and unquestionable. As I said, this was written before characters such as Vitiate, Nihilus or Bane were created.

I can't really argue for Sidious as I did not read material specifically dedicated to him, a lot of his feats are simply not well known.

However, I found a topic on another forum.

Here - person called Makoto_Shishio brings up a lot of less known feats and canon quotes about him. One of the most notable ones is that ancient Sith recognize him as the greatest and the strongest whoever lived.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Dune was shiit...

What was bad about it? You must be thinking of the Sci-Fi Miniseries. 😛

I actually thought even that was pretty good.

And Children of Dune is a ****ing masterpiece.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
No, it is actually stated by an out-of-the-universe source that Sidious is indeed the most powerful.

That was from Darth Vader's perspective - a person who had never known or fought Bane, and likely had not even known Nihilus had ever existed.

Vader is making the simple and honest mistake of overestimating Sidious in terms of personal combat.

I hate to point this out, since I'm one of the least most apt people to try and twist a character's words in a ridiculous way - but he
might have been refering to Sidious as being the most politically powerful.

I know, I hate putting it that way. It seems stupid. But the other possibility of him being the most powerful Sith Lord ever known is just not true.

- Unless the galaxy had forgotten about Darth Nihilus - or even more likely - had never actually known of his existance in the first place.

That makes it more likely.

An even better question comes to mind: If OT Palpatine is more powerful than his RotS counterpart in the Force - then, is his OT counterpart capable of killing Bane reasonably well in a duel with said Force abilities?

That's a valid question right there.

Originally posted by Arhael
I can't really argue for Sidious as I did not read material specifically dedicated to him, a lot of his feats are simply not well known.

However, I found a topic on another forum.

Here - person called Makoto_Shishio brings up a lot of less known feats and canon quotes about him. One of the most notable ones is that ancient Sith recognize him as the greatest and the strongest whoever lived.

😆

My God, man.

Honestly Battlemaster, I do not think that comes from Vader's perspective. I can see how you think so, as it really comes down to how you read it, but lines such as that always strike me as a blanket statement by the author.

Originally posted by Pwned
Honestly Battlemaster, I do not think that comes from Vader's perspective. I can see how you think so, as it really comes down to how you read it, but lines such as that always strike me as a blanket statement by the author.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
“Vader imagined

Originally posted by Battlemaster
😆

My God, man.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."
-- Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook

Empire's End, one of the Ancient Sith spirits on korriban: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Also, that guy mentioned feats of him destroying 50 stormtroopers with single blast and 3 Prophets of the Sith, which I had no clue about before.

Sooooo.....

Which of these sources is created after TOR/Revan and after DoE Bane was envisioned?

Because if none of them, then that means they can be overwritten by newer canon. That kind of thing happens all the time.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
So, I was eating at Burger King one day, then I was mugged by a Bantha. Oh, and I am currently high. Just sayin'

Originally posted by Pwned
No, the added sentence after that. The "Vader could not hope to match the most powerful Sith Lord to ever live" That is the sentence I meant.

😆 I think I hit a raw nerve.

Alright, I'll break it down for you:

Originally posted by Major Valerian
“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” - (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

The whole quote kind of goes together in terms of logistics.

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire.

Vader: "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son! Come with me. It is the only way."
[Luke lets go of the projection and falls into the shaft]

But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.”

Vader: "There is no escape! Don't make me destroy you. Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You've only begun to discover your power! Join me, and I will complete your training! With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy."

If you need me to, next, I'll explain where babies come from. 😛

You're making Ahrael look pretty smart right now. 😆 😉

I read it as a statement by the author that Vader is not as powerful as the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

However, I know that was written quite a while ago, and that Sidious is not necessarily the most powerful. Top 3? Yes, most definately. I was just making a point, which you felt the need to attempt to insult me after.

That quote was just for the lulz.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
That was from Darth Vader's perspective - a person who had never known or fought Bane, and likely had not even known Nihilus had ever existed.

Originally posted by Gideon

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)
The final proclamation of Palpatine’s status as the strongest dark sider in history is the most valid of all. [B]Written from an out-of-universe visual guide., it is a blanket statement that is thoroughly and utterly binding.[/B]

Out-of-universe. Not Vader's perspective...

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Unless the galaxy had forgotten about Darth Nihilus - or even more likely - had never actually known of his existance in the first place.

As I said, this statement about Sidious' power was made before DoE, TOR, KOTOR II and Revan were even thought of or published. So it's not really a matter of them (Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate) being forgotten, it's a matter of them not actually existing when the statement was made.

I know, I hate putting it that way. It seems stupid. But the other possibility of him being the most powerful Sith Lord ever known is just not true.

It was true... Before the videogames and novels I mentioned above were made. Now, we really can't know if it still stands. Once again, the only reason that statement is not reliable any more is thanks to the fact that those mentioned above were not yet made when the statement was written. Other than Bane, Vitiate, and Nihilus there is really no other Sith who can effectively question Palpatine's position in terms of power. Actually, I'd say only Vitiate and Nihilus can question Palpatine's status. There's no way Bane can defeat DE Sidious.

Anyhow, this is the reason EU logic and continuity sucks. It's one contradiction after another, and it only confuses us hardcore SW fans further.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Out-of-universe. Not Vader's perspective...

They're not Vader's imaginings. The only thing Vader imagined was the power he could have if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule.

Edit - Besides, you'd really argue than somebody other than Nihilus or Vitiate can challenge DE Sidious? That pretty much clears things up.

That whole quote looks from Vader's perspective. And it looks an awful lot like a line from the novel Death Star, from Vader's thoughts.

Not really. It seems more like the author is actually agreeing with Vader's thoughts by writing that he alone could not hope to destroy Palpatine by himself. At least that's how I see it.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Besides, you'd really argue than somebody other than Nihilus or Vitiate can challenge DE Sidious? That pretty much clears things up.

It seems more like the author writing a thought from Vader's perspective. Same with Yoda's thoughts on himself in RotS.

I've also lost the ability to equate grandiose Force powers with personal combative capabilities. Since when has a Force Storm bestowed fighting prowess?

Originally posted by Major Valerian
They're not Vader's imaginings. The only thing Vader imagined was the power he could have if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule.

Edit - Besides, you'd really argue than somebody other than Nihilus or Vitiate can challenge DE Sidious? That pretty much clears things up.

I'm willing to argue all of those (with the caveat that I haven't played TOR so I'll be copypasting for those characters).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sooooo.....

Which of these sources is created after TOR/Revan and after DoE Bane was envisioned?

Because if none of them, then that means they can be overwritten by newer canon. That kind of thing happens all the time.