Mara Jade vs. Darth Sidious · Star Wars Versus Forum

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
That's not what Lucas stated in an interview.

Twenty percent within isn't what I consider right around the alley

Outcome is irrelevant.
Caedus crippled Luke much more, than Palpatine after losing him.

Luke wasn't 'crippled,.' And Palpatine was not trying to damage him permanently. He won and broke him mentally until Leia saved him.

The talk was about versatility. You claimed that Palpatine is more versatile in combat. Prove it.
Did you actually read that book? She shot his arm with rifle, so in their first fight he had only one working arm. And Luke was in heavy meditation empowering her. Moreover, she learned mandalorian fighting, which gave her element of surprise. So again we see Jacen at very strong disadvantage and he still handled her.

Oh, yes, the Mandalorians.
Also, I'm not exactly finding it that impressive that Jacen can be sniped when we've seen DE era Luke protecting himself from an AT AT shooting at him. Palpatine in his fight with Yoda did use lightning, saber, environment and TK in the same duel.

Luke attacked from behind and seared his liver. Mara hid in the Force and crippled his leg, then put avalanche of stone on top of him. In both cases Caedus was at heavy disadvantage right from the beginning. Thanks to his pain tolerance, which empowers him instead of weakening and versatility in use of surroundings, uncommon Force powers and other means.

Growing stronger from pain? It's not something unique to Caedus. Many Sith have used it.

I am giving examples of versatility. You said Jacen is not very versatile. Give me a single example of his versatility. He hasn't been shown to utilize a single uncommon power during combat. The most we see is pure lightsaber fencing and Force lightning. Throwing platforms is perhaps the only known feat of him utilizing TK.

I meant versatility with force powers. You said he has all these amazing, arcande abilities, but he routinely fails to utilize them.

Shatterpoints, paralyzing spine, illusions, getting empowered from pain - these are all uncommon abilities Sidious was never shown to possess. Your turn to list Palpatine's combat powers. Moreover he utilizes kicks and punches and uses surroundings a lot, which Palpatine, also, never showed.

'paralyzing spine' is a form of TK. We saw Palpatine do that to Sedriss when he forced him to serve him...and growing stronger from pain, again, is very, very basic. Bane, Vader and many others have done it.

Also, throwing platforms is using your surroundings, and Palpatine is also a martial artist. He's the one who taught that to Maul

List those abilites, please, and how they helped him in actual combat. 👆.
I asked Windu and company, Yoda and Luke already. 😄

So your points are "it doesn't count" when I list them?

Stealth Moose Umbrella Elite

This is the only explanation for what? Five, six years of mis-bolding your entire reply post? Welcome back, bro.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Twenty percent within isn't what I consider right around the alley

And Caedus surpassed Vader, so it is less, than 20%. By what margin we can only guess. 😉

Luke wasn't 'crippled,.' And Palpatine was not trying to damage him permanently. He won and broke him mentally until Leia saved him.

Luke sustained several injuries after fighting Caedus. And I am talking about second Luke's fight with Palpatine, where after fierce duel Luke chopped his arm. Luke didn't have a scratch on him.

Oh, yes, the Mandalorians.
Also, I'm not exactly finding it that impressive that Jacen can be sniped when we've seen DE era Luke protecting himself from an AT AT shooting at him. Palpatine in his fight with Yoda did use lightning, saber, environment and TK in the same duel.

Well, Luke wasn't fighting four mandalorians in beskar armor at that moment and AT-AT couldn't hide in a sniper position and conceal itself in the Force. 😄

Growing stronger from pain? It's not something unique to Caedus. Many Sith have used it.

Name at least single one. Palpatine didn't become stronger, when Windu and Yoda were redirecting lightning at him.
When Luke chopped Palpatine's arm, he started chanting. When Jaina chopped Caedus' arm, he gave her such lightning blast that she no longer could fight or at least stand up.
There are many examples of Sith tolerating pain but there are hardly any examples of getting empowered by pain.

I meant versatility with force powers. You said he has all these amazing, arcande abilities, but he routinely fails to utilize them.

The only one he failed is paralyzing spine. Drawing on pain, shatterpoints and illusion worked fine.

'paralyzing spine' is a form of TK. We saw Palpatine do that to Sedriss when he forced him to serve him...and growing stronger from pain, again, is very, very basic. Bane, Vader and many others have done it.

Honestly, I don't care. Palpatine never used anything like that in combat, that's what matters.

Also, throwing platforms is using your surroundings, and Palpatine is also a martial artist. He's the one who taught that to Maul

Any example apart from platforms? You are, yet, to show any arcane abilities and maneuvers that actually catch opponent off guard.

And Palpatine was busy with politics, while Maul learned all his martial arts from droids. And maybe that's why we see Maul fighting with dual lightsaber and constantly kicking and punching Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, while Palpatine fights with normal lightsaber and never executed a single kick or punch in entire mythos.

Shadowbroker Restricted

Caedus's position over Vader originates with the publisher's summary on the jacket of Legacy of the Force: Invincible. I'm not sure quotes from the jacket are binding. After all, the Darth Plagueis jacket declares him to be "the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived."

Caedus's placement relative to Vader is undefined.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
And Caedus surpassed Vader, so it is less, than 20%. By what margin we can only guess. 😉

Unfortunately, that statement doesn't clarify which incarnation of Palpatine. In 'Death Star,' Vader indicates the gap between him and Palpatine is enormous

Luke sustained several injuries after fighting Caedus. And I am talking about second Luke's fight with Palpatine, where after fierce duel Luke chopped his arm. Luke didn't have a scratch on him.

And your point is? At that point, both Palpatine and Luke had achieved an avatar state of the light and dark, similar to how Jacen did against Onimi and how Gannger Rhysode did in Traitor. In the fight where Palpatine dominated him, Luke didn't have injuries either. Oh, and Palpatine blasted Luke with force lightning when he rejected the dark side. That is certainly a 'scratch.'

Well, Luke wasn't fighting four mandalorians in beskar armor at that moment and AT-AT couldn't hide in a sniper position and conceal itself in the Force. 😄

no, Luke had only just destroyed an army of battle droids himself and had little training under his belt to boot.

Name at least single one. Palpatine didn't become stronger, when Windu and Yoda were redirecting lightning at him.
Vader? And Palpatine, in the ROTS novel, DID become stronger from the pain of his lightning. Bane has done this as well.

When Luke chopped Palpatine's arm, he started chanting. When Jaina chopped Caedus' arm, he gave her such lightning blast that she no longer could fight or at least stand up.
Umm...Palpatine started 'chanting?' He actually used a technique that wiped out part of the Republic fleet in pure rage.

There are many examples of Sith tolerating pain but there are hardly any examples of getting empowered by pain.

Like Ulic Qe-Droma?
Darth Bane?
Darth Nihl?
Darth Krayt?
Maul?

The only one he failed is paralyzing spine. Drawing on pain, shatterpoints and illusion worked fine.
Palpatine is an illusionist master, and shatterpoints aren't unique. as I recall, Krayt could do that very easily

Honestly, I don't care. Palpatine never used anything like that in combat, that's what matters.
He's used morichiro, Malacia, and others. In the movies alone, he used lightning andTK in one fight. Caedus hasn't used many force powers in combat. At all.

Any example apart from platforms? You are, yet, to show any arcane abilities and maneuvers that actually catch opponent off guard.
How about dominating Plagueis's midichlorians? And the Force Storm

And Palpatine was busy with politics, while Maul learned all his martial arts from droids.
From Episode 1, Journal, Darth Maul:
Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master. I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to. The smile of triumph fades from my face.
"Do you think," Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"
"No, Master." What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?
The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.
I do not flinch.
At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.
"Do not let me see you relax your guard again," my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

And maybe that's why we see Maul fighting with dual lightsaber and constantly kicking and punching Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, while Palpatine fights with normal lightsaber and never executed a single kick or punch in entire mythos.

Yeah. Maul's journal makes it clear that Palpatine taught him personally. the droids were used to TEST him.

""I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.""

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unfortunately, that statement doesn't clarify which incarnation of Palpatine. In 'Death Star,' Vader indicates the gap between him and Palpatine is enormous

And fortunately we have Caedus able to survive more powerful and experienced Luke, than from DE. Moreover, Luke was angered and we know what tends to happen when characters are truly pissed off.

And your point is? At that point, both Palpatine and Luke had achieved an avatar state of the light and dark, similar to how Jacen did against Onimi and how Gannger Rhysode did in Traitor. In the fight where Palpatine dominated him, Luke didn't have injuries either. Oh, and Palpatine blasted Luke with force lightning when he rejected the dark side. That is certainly a 'scratch.'

There is no such thing as avatar of light and dark. Oneness is a lightside thing described as perfect clarity and perfect calm. In any case there is nothing proving that Luke actually achieved that state during duel with Palpatine. Even if he did, he seems to be achieving in nearly every epic fight.

no, Luke had only just destroyed an army of battle droids himself and had little training under his belt to boot.

Exactly, he finished droids and nothing was distracting him from AT-AT. His all focus was on AT-AT. While Jacen was fighting mandalorians. And during that fight Jaina was concealed in the Force and made shot, which was meant to kill him.

Vader? And Palpatine, in the ROTS novel, DID become stronger from the pain of his lightning. Bane has done this as well.

Didn't read novel but in films it doesn't look so. Bane was distracted by pain caused by Obralisk.

Umm...Palpatine started 'chanting?' He actually used a technique that wiped out part of the Republic fleet in pure rage.

He started doing it after some talking. As his arm got cut off, the duel was finished. As Jaina cut Caedus' arm, next instance he blasted her down.

Like Ulic Qe-Droma?
Darth Bane?
Darth Nihl?
Darth Krayt?
Maul?

Any proves? Nihilus example works against you. He didn't have flesh, it was a spirit inside armor.

Palpatine is an illusionist master, and shatterpoints aren't unique. as I recall, Krayt could do that very easily

Palpatine did not utilize illusions in combat and shatterpoint was extremely uncommon ability, which, also, happened to be the reason why Windu won Palpatine.

He's used morichiro, Malacia, and others. In the movies alone, he used lightning andTK in one fight. Caedus hasn't used many force powers in combat. At all.

Morichiro and Malacia? Sounds like cocktails. 🙂 Caedus used bigger variety of powers in combat, than any other Sith. It's not just about abilities, it's about how he utilized them to outwit/outskill opponent.

How about dominating Plagueis's midichlorians? And the Force Storm

Did he "dominate" Plaegueis's midichlorians during combat?
He NEVER utilized Force Storm in actual combat. Remember that he did not utilize it against Luke and Leia. He utilized it against republic ships. He always utilized this ability on someone from safe distance.

""I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.""

This second passage proves your point. However, it still doesn't make sense as there is nothing common even remotely in their styles. If Palpatine could kick and punch like Maul, he would use it at least ones at least somewhere in EU. If he could kick, imho he would pawn Windu no sweat.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
And fortunately we have Caedus able to survive more powerful and experienced Luke, than from DE. Moreover, Luke was angered and we know what tends to happen when characters are truly pissed off.

Caedus 'survived' because Ben backstabbed him and Luke didn't want him to fall to the Dark Side. As Caedus himself admits.

There is no such thing as avatar of light and dark. Oneness is a lightside thing described as perfect clarity and perfect calm. In any case there is nothing proving that Luke actually achieved that state during duel with Palpatine. Even if he did, he seems to be achieving in nearly every epic fight.

No, he did it then because he was fighting the pure embodiment of darkness. The audio drama of DE indicates such, as do subsequent materials. Jacen became a pure avatar of the Force, as did Ganner and others

Exactly, he finished droids and nothing was distracting him from AT-AT. His all focus was on AT-AT. While Jacen was fighting mandalorians. And during that fight Jaina was concealed in the Force and made shot, which was meant to kill him.

Ah, so Jacen was distracted by a series of mooks he should have just killed with a flick of his wrist?

Remember when Palpatine killed like a hundred storm troopers with one attack?

Didn't read novel but in films it doesn't look so.

You understand the novel clarifies more than your thoughts

Bane was distracted by pain caused by Obralisk.

Prove it.

He started doing it after some talking. As his arm got cut off, the duel was finished. As Jaina cut Caedus' arm, next instance he blasted her down.
And she still took his arm

Any proves? Nihilus example works against you. He didn't have flesh, it was a spirit inside armor.

Darth NIHL. Not Nihilus. Cade Skywalker fed on his pain to get stronger as well.

Palpatine did not utilize illusions in combat and shatterpoint was extremely uncommon ability, which, also, happened to be the reason why Windu won Palpatine.
Actually, no. The novelization noted that Palpatine's true shatterpoint was ANAKIN. Indicating...
And Caedus only managed a brief illusion against Mara. Compare to Wyyrlok who used it much better in actual combat. Palpatine also commented he found illusions less than satisfying, even though he was fully capable of it, as well as the sorcery

Morichiro and Malacia? Sounds like cocktails. 🙂 Caedus used bigger variety of powers in combat, than any other Sith. It's not just about abilities, it's about how he utilized them to outwit/outskill opponent.
Morichiro is an ability that stills and shuts down one's heart and body
Malacia is one that induces nausea/dizziness in the victim.
lso, Bane and Zannah used way more than Caedus in fights

Did he "dominate" Plaegueis's midichlorians during combat?
Given Plagueis was attempting to resist Palpatine murdering him?

He NEVER utilized Force Storm in actual combat. Remember that he did not utilize it against Luke and Leia. He utilized it against republic ships. He always utilized this ability on someone from safe distance.
Except when he transported himself from Endor to Jeng Droga, you mean?

This second passage proves your point. However, it still doesn't make sense as there is nothing common even remotely in their styles. If Palpatine could kick and punch like Maul, he would use it at least ones at least somewhere in EU. If he could kick, imho he would pawn Windu no sweat.

I just posted direct canon, do me the favor of not trying to wriggle out of it here. Palpatine is a master of multiple forms and styles, just like many others. Palpatine could simply just dislike getting so physical if he doesn't absolutely have to, but you can bet he's pummeled the hell out of Maul.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Caedus 'survived' because Ben backstabbed him and Luke didn't want him to fall to the Dark Side. As Caedus himself admits.

I know. My point that Caedus survived all Luke's attacks. He was able to block Luke's powerful strikes. He was able to match Luke's speed. Clearly Luke was better combatant but it shows that Caedus was close to him.

No, he did it then because he was fighting the pure embodiment of darkness. The audio drama of DE indicates such, as do subsequent materials. Jacen became a pure avatar of the Force, as did Ganner and others

"Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong.... they’re both moving so fast, I can hardly see them.... I feel waves of power.... the Dark Side and the Light...But...I feel...the Light...is winning!!"
That's all we have from audio, it doesn't reallyy prove Luke experienced Oneness. Luke was still able to fight Palpatine for a while, while on darkside. Imho no darkside nexus nearby and Luke finally getting his head clear was enough to turn tides. In comparison Ganner's performance was significantly higher, he was struggling with single Vong but then pawns thousands of them. I prefer to think that in DE true Oneness was displayed, when Luke and Leia combined their powers to counter Force Strom.

Ah, so Jacen was distracted by a series of mooks he should have just killed with a flick of his wrist?
Remember when Palpatine killed like a hundred storm troopers with one attack?

You call mandalorians mooks? The problem is that those four mooks kept shooting at him, which prevented him from concentrating on any offensive Force powers. Moreover, they had beskar armor, which cannot be cut with lightsaber. As solution he used shatterpoint to break armor of one of them though.

You understand the novel clarifies more than your thoughts

Indeed. In TFU Sidious has similar struggle with Marek like with Yoda. And when he got flavor of his own lightning, it didn't give him any additional power.

Prove it.

That's what you guys argued about in another thread, all quotes are down there. Provided by Neph, if I am not wrong.

And she still took his arm

And? I pointed out that arm she took off, wasn't working. He fought with one arm only, it's a big disadvantage in combat. Plus the fact that she is empowered by Luke. Amazing that he survived that at all.

Darth NIHL. Not Nihilus. Cade Skywalker fed on his pain to get stronger as well.

Fohhh all those Sith. You said that Sidious was getting stronger from his pain in RotS novel, in which fight? I will check it out some time later.

Actually, no. The novelization noted that Palpatine's true shatterpoint was ANAKIN. Indicating...
And Caedus only managed a brief illusion against Mara. Compare to Wyyrlok who used it much better in actual combat. Palpatine also commented he found illusions less than satisfying, even though he was fully capable of it, as well as the sorcery

In other words Palpatine did not utilize illusions in combat. I agree that Palpatine knew more knowledge in darkside and knew more powers. However, in combat he used rather straight forward abilities: lightning and TK. In actual fights Caedus showed more ways to outwit/outskill opponent.

Morichiro is an ability that stills and shuts down one's heart and body
Malacia is one that induces nausea/dizziness in the victim.

Thanks for info.

Except when he transported himself from Endor to Jeng Droga, you mean?

Except he wasn't fighting at that point, nor had physical body.

I just posted direct canon, do me the favor of not trying to wriggle out of it here. Palpatine is a master of multiple forms and styles, just like many others. Palpatine could simply just dislike getting so physical if he doesn't absolutely have to, but you can bet he's pummeled the hell out of Maul.

I will give you that favor, if you give me example of a single fight, where Sidious utilizes those "martial arts". All lightsaber fights didn't have a single punch or kick in them. He showed complete mastery in pure lightsaber fencing only.

Zampanó The Blind Critic

Originally posted by Pwned
I agree with Lightsnake there. In fact, I believe Palpatine gave every Force Religion a choice: Join him, or be destroyed. In either case, he studied their teachings. Thats part of what makes him so dangerous, he has more knowledge than just about anybody else.

Jacen, now a complete master of the Force...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
See,the flaw in this is Zam making a 'good case' about anything from what I've seen of his arguments.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Shots fired.
Zamp, defend your honor.

This came out of left field. I guess I'll just get back into the habit of seeding "[/b]" tags throughout my posts so that at least part of the conversation is readable.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Caedus at that point lacked Palpatine's power, and never once surpassed him in it.

This is debatable. Caedus kept pace with a vastly more powerful iteration of Luke than did Sidious, has been described as a "total master of the Force" and, while I've yet to read the Plagueis novel to compare, demonstrates a control of the Force that is notably refined by any objective standard.[/b]

I'm sure that someone with your library of sources would know better than I, but didn't the "most powerful Sith Lord" quotes all predate the FotJ series?

Spoiler:
New material, including new Sith characters, supersedes those older quotes.

[/b]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You'll need a lot more than that sort of nonsense to make acompelling argument, or why Palpatine won't simply snap her neck, or burst a vessel in her brain with a thought.

Oh, I didn't realize we were playing make believe.[/b] In that case, Mara cloaks herself in the Force and solos the entire Death Star. facepalm

Before laying claim to a particular tactic, it's generally a good idea to check and see if it's got any textual backing:
Palpatine is known for physically liquidating his opponents brains when:[list][*]Being tossed down energy shafts[/b][*]Being charged by Zabraks[/b][*]Being shot by blasters[/b][/list]

oh shi-

On the other hand, Mara is known to go flawlessly invisible in the Force, bend light/heat/air currents simultaneously, and thereby solo the Death Star.
fdog[/b]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is far more accomplished with the use of the force.

Than Mara? Certainly.
So was Caedus.[/b]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is far more accomplished with the use of the force.

Than Caedus? Perhaps.
Enough to completely neuter the hit and run tactics, massive pain generation, and impeccable Force Cloaking? Somehow I'm not convinced.[/b]

Spoiler:
This isn't to say that I'm particularly upset by your line of argumentation; as the character with the single greatest Speed and Telekinesis feats, N. is now the undisputed winner of all vs. fights.

fdog

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Zampanó

This came out of left field. I guess I'll just get back into the habit of seeding "" tags throughout my posts so that at least part of the conversation is readable.

This is debatable. Caedus kept pace with a vastly more powerful iteration of Luke than did Sidious, has been described as a "total master of the Force" and, while I've yet to read the Plagueis novel to compare, demonstrates a control of the Force that is notably refined by any objective standard.[/b][/Quote]

Ignoring the unique avatar states Palpatine and Vader had there.

Ignoring that Palpatine's mastery had eclipsed Caedus's, and Caedus had only been later described as more powerful than Vader as opposed to Palpatine, and Palpatine is described as having "has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure."

Keep in mind, if you hadn't read darth Plagueis, the powers of Plagueis and Sidious are unprecedented: they literally bent the Force to their will, resisting its attempts to kill them.

I'm sure that someone with your library of sources would know better than I, but didn't the "most powerful Sith Lord" quotes all predate the FotJ series?
Spoiler:
New material, including new Sith characters, supersedes those older quotes.
[/b]
Yeah,except it doesn't work that way. Not only do other quotes supercede AND precede Legacy of the Force (Death Star came out in 2008 concurrently with Legacy of the Force), it's not explicitly overwriting anything. In essence, absolute quotes are absolute. Otherwise, it's nothing more than "But I think it shouldn't be that" which is irrelevant. Unless LFL explicitly overwrites it, it stands
[Quote]
Oh, I didn't realize we were playing make believe.[/b] In that case, Mara cloaks herself in the Force and solos the entire Death Star. facepalm
Before laying claim to a particular tactic, it's generally a good idea to check and see if it's got any textual backing:
Palpatine is known for physically liquidating his opponents brains when:[list][*]Being tossed down energy shafts[/b][*]Being charged by Zabraks[/b][*]Being shot by blasters[/b][/list]
oh shi-
On the other hand, Mara is known to go flawlessly invisible in the Force, bend light/heat/air currents simultaneously, and thereby solo the Death Star.
fdog[/b]p/Quote]
Cute. We've seen dark siders do just that, by pressing upon a vessel in the brain. even a relative nobody like Lycan was capable of it,
[Quote]
Than Mara? Certainly.
So was Caedus.[/b]

Then Caedus made stupid errors Palpatine will not, and?

Than Caedus? Perhaps.
Enough to completely neuter the hit and run tactics, massive pain generation, and impeccable Force Cloaking? Somehow I'm not convinced.[/b]

'Impeccable' force cloaking? You're talking about the master of that. Not only that, but Palpatine is able to pierce veils and see into someone to read their thoughts, ESPECIALLY those he has a connection to (even Luke wasn't immune after he left his service) If Mara tries anything, Palpatine will simply seize her in the force and snuff her life out.

Spoiler:
This isn't to say that I'm particularly upset by your line of argumentation; as the character with the single greatest Speed and Telekinesis feats, N. is now the undisputed winner of all vs. fights.
fdog [/B]

[/Quote]

Wow,f ancy that? The guy who's stronger, faster, more powerful in the force and a more skilled duelist wins the fight?

Zampanó The Blind Critic

Even the parts of that post that weren't upended by (gloriously devious) formatting traps are completely incoherent. Could you reword the following please?

Ignoring the unique avatar states Palpatine and Vader had there.???
Ignoring that Palpatine's mastery had eclipsed Caedus's, and Caedus had only been later described as more powerful than Vader as opposed to Palpatine, and Palpatine is described as having "has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure."

Specifically, which avatar states [where?], what was ignoring them, and how on earth is a "total master of the Force" anything but on equal footing with Palpatine?

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Jesus christ.

You've been a member for 7 years!

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Zampanó
Even the parts of that post that weren't upended by (gloriously devious) formatting traps are completely incoherent. Could you reword the following please?
Specifically, which avatar states [where?], what was ignoring them, and how on earth is a "total master of the Force" anything but on equal footing with Palpatine?

I believe LS is referring to the duel between Luke and Sidious.

'And your point is? At that point, both Palpatine and Luke had achieved an avatar state of the light and dark, similar to how Jacen did against Onimi and how Gannger Rhysode did in Traitor.'

Zampanó The Blind Critic

Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe LS is referring to the duel between Luke and Sidious.
'And your point is? At that point, both Palpatine and Luke had achieved an avatar state of the light and dark, similar to how Jacen did against Onimi and how Gannger Rhysode did in Traitor.'

Oh thanks. I didn't read through the bits where LS was line-by-lining with the new guys; I've simply lost patience for the sort of debate where every single sentence must be rebutted or insulted. (ALSO I WAS NEVER VERY GOOD AT THEM)

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe LS is referring to the duel between Luke and Sidious.
'And your point is? At that point, both Palpatine and Luke had achieved an avatar state of the light and dark, similar to how Jacen did against Onimi and how Gannger Rhysode did in Traitor.'

This is clearly an assumption from his side. The only thing audio book portrays is what Leia feels.
Doesn't make sense that Luke with his potential to become what his father could would need to achieve Oneness in order to defeat someone.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Hmmmm, doesn't the comic say that the totality of the light side was behind Luke in that fight? Or was that when he linked up with Leia?

Shadowbroker Restricted

Z.
Jacen, now a complete master of the Force...

Originally posted by Shadowbroker
Caedus's position over Vader originates with the publisher's summary on the jacket of Legacy of the Force: Invincible. I'm not sure quotes from the jacket are binding. After all, the Darth Plagueis jacket declares him to be "the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived."
Caedus's placement relative to Vader is undefined.

To say nothing of the fact that Jacen, "complete master of the Force", is getting tips on battle meditation from Lumiya of all people. facepalm

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Zampanó
Even the parts of that post that weren't upended by (gloriously devious) formatting traps are completely incoherent. Could you reword the following please?
Specifically, which avatar states [where?], what was ignoring them, and how on earth is a "total master of the Force" anything but on equal footing with Palpatine?

You're neglecting how many times that almost precise phrasing has been used.I am referring to Luke becoming a near personification of the light and Palpatine of the darkness. Some quotes on Palp:

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force.

You're ascribing more to Caedus than he's shown. He was considerably below Luke in Force prowess.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmmmm, doesn't the comic say that the totality of the light side was behind Luke in that fight? Or was that when he linked up with Leia?

Luke got his head clear, nothing about him becoming tool of the Force. Nothing suggesting that he experienced oneness. But, when he combined his power with Leia after duel, it seems to be so. Their combined effort even was prophesied 4000 years ago.

You're ascribing more to Caedus than he's shown. He was considerably below Luke in Force prowess.

Considerably? During combat Caedus achieved enough speed and strength to duel Luke, evade all killing blows and even give couple of body shots. He even Force pushed Luke away, something no other Sith managed to do to prime Luke. Considerably less characters got blitzed by Sidious within seconds. And considerably less characters coordinating whit battle-meld didn't give much trouble to Caedus either.

You can still rely on the feat, when Luke caught him off guard by pinning to chair but I don't see how it makes his combat less impressive, than what Sidious' short duel followed by losing his arm.

Shadowbroker Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
See,the flaw in this is Zam making a 'good case' about anything from what I've seen of his arguments.

Just saw this and lol'd irl a great deal. 😂 😂 😂