Mara Jade vs. Darth Sidious

Started by Lightsnake21 pages

Originally posted by Arhael

Luke got his head clear, nothing about him becoming tool of the Force. Nothing suggesting that he experienced oneness. But, when he combined his power with Leia after duel, it seems to be so. Their combined effort even was prophesied 4000 years ago.


did I or did I not make it clear there are other sources that I'd mentioned and listed?


Considerably? During combat Caedus achieved enough speed and strength to duel Luke, evade all killing blows and even give couple of body shots. He even Force pushed Luke away, something no other Sith managed to do to prime Luke.

So Exar Kun, Kueller, Palpatine, etc, ceased to exist? Also, you keep ignoring that Caedus LOST that fight and Ben's intervention saved his ass


Considerably less characters got blitzed by Sidious within seconds. And considerably less characters coordinating whit battle-meld didn't give much trouble to Caedus either.

Palpatine killed three of the best swordsmen the order ever produced nigh on instantly, and Maul and Savage personally himself


You can still rely on the feat, when Luke caught him off guard by pinning to chair but I don't see how it makes his combat less impressive, than what Sidious' short duel followed by losing his arm.

Yes, why ever would I 'rely' on Caedus being rendered totally helpless by Luke?

also, missed Leia in that I see.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
did I or did I not make it clear there are other sources that I'd mentioned and listed?

You did. So which sources?

So Exar Kun, Kueller, Palpatine, etc, ceased to exist? Also, you keep ignoring that Caedus LOST that fight and Ben's intervention saved his ass
I referred to post Swarm War Luke, nevermind.
Caedus was still choking Luke, when Ben stubbed him. 😉
And, yes, I know that Caedus himself admitted that Luke would escape choke and finish him otherwise. I ignore nothing. Caedus put up a good fight against Luke. Palpatine is not better as he lost as well anyway.

Palpatine killed three of the best swordsmen the order ever produced nigh on instantly, and Maul and Savage personally himself
Three best swordsmen ever produced? Ok. Sounds big and great. The only problem that Windu didn't die instantly and defeated Palpatine. Now that is example of the best swordsman to be ever produced.

Yes, why ever would I 'rely' on Caedus being rendered totally helpless by Luke?

To ignore the fact that he put up better fight against more powerful version of Luke, than Sidious.

also, missed Leia in that I see.
Ah?

Originally posted by Arhael
You did. So which sources?[/Quot]e
Again, DE audio makes it clear how high level the fight was, and unless I'm not remembering proprly, the DE sourcebook, Dark Side sourcebook, and SW Gamer


I referred to post Swarm War Luke, nevermind.
Caedus was still choking Luke, when Ben stubbed him. 😉
And, yes, I know that Caedus himself admitted that Luke would escape choke and finish him otherwise. I ignore nothing. Caedus put up a good fight against Luke. Palpatine is not better as he lost as well anyway.

Caedus got his sorry ass handed to him and had to resort to hit and run, and would have lost anyways. Of course you ignore Luke was still recovering from the fight with Lumiya whereas Jacen got stronger from the pain Luke gave, whereas Luke got weaker.
In fact, Luke had Jacen dead before ben called out and shocked him.

And Luke broke out:
"Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote
loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the
other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up
under Jacen's chin.
The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to
the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker
and buy some maneuvering room"

And this:
"Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He
had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and
he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably
that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked
Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark
side"

[Quote]
Three best swordsmen ever produced? Ok. Sounds big and great. The only problem that Windu didn't die instantly and defeated Palpatine. Now that is example of the best swordsman to be ever produced.

Except Palpatine's effort at the end is very debatable. And yes, three of the best ever dead in moments


To ignore the fact that he put up better fight against more powerful version of Luke, than Sidious.

Except you ignore he got his sorry ass handed to him and Luke was injured coming into the fight


Ah?

Leia. Luke not only fought against Palpatine in a unique state for both, but Leia was there to tilt the scales

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Of course you ignore Luke was still recovering from the fight with Lumiya whereas Jacen got stronger from the pain Luke gave, whereas Luke got weaker.

Except you ignore he got his sorry ass handed to him and Luke was injured coming into the fight


Claim about Luke being weakened after fight with Lumiya is utterly baseless. Luke killed Lumiya one book ago without sustaining any injuries. And she seriously injured him another book ago and he healed himself from that injury with bakta tank and healing trance. The fight between Luke and Jacen does not indicate that Luke was weakened in any way. This assumption is void. The fact that Jacen could fight more powerful version of Luke and gave him more injuries, than Sidious stands.


Except Palpatine's effort at the end is very debatable. And yes, three of the best ever dead in moments
Those the best are nowhere near to the likes of Windu and Yoda. Their performance doesn't make them anymore impressive, then Jedi Knights accompanying Kyle Katarn.

Leia. Luke not only fought against Palpatine in a unique state for both, but Leia was there to tilt the scales
First of all Palpatine did not achieve any unique state, he is all power anytime. And he was quite frustrated with Luke rejecting darkside anyway.

Second, when Luke fought Palpatine with lightsaber, Leia wasn't helping him in any way, audio book makes it clear. DE sourcebook doesn't mention anything about Leia helping Luke during duel either. It only tells about Force harmony, which they utilized to counter Force Storm. Also, please, don't try to bring battle meditation topic. Sourcebook and comic doesn't mention anything about her using it. Moreover, audio books confirm that she discovered BM ability only in Dark Empire II or Empire's End, can't remember. If you want, I can pull out necessary proves.

Originally posted by Arhael
Claim about Luke being weakened after fight with Lumiya is utterly baseless. Luke killed Lumiya one book ago without sustaining any injuries. And she seriously injured him another book ago and he healed himself from that injury with bakta tank and healing trance. The fight between Luke and Jacen does not indicate that Luke was weakened in any way. This assumption is void. The fact that Jacen could fight more powerful version of Luke and gave him more injuries, than Sidious stands.

"Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the
barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was
coming in short painful gasps."
Page 238


Those the best are nowhere near to the likes of Windu and Yoda. Their performance doesn't make them anymore impressive, then Jedi Knights accompanying Kyle Katarn.

Remember when Kit took on Grievous? When Saesee held his own with Mace? When Agen Kolar defeated Quinlan Vos? Yeah, all of them have solid, impressive feats


First of all Palpatine did not achieve any unique state, he is all power anytime. And he was quite frustrated with Luke rejecting darkside anyway.

He'd just stomped Luke hours ago. What changed? It wasn't even CLOSE


Second, when Luke fought Palpatine with lightsaber, Leia wasn't helping him in any way, audio book makes it clear. DE sourcebook doesn't mention anything about Leia helping Luke during duel either. It only tells about Force harmony, which they utilized to counter Force Storm. Also, please, don't try to bring battle meditation topic. Sourcebook and comic doesn't mention anything about her using it.

I love this. the DE audiobook has her specifically note their states and use the force to clear away the shadows that Palpatine's surrounded them with. Gee, wonder why in the comic she stands there glowing as the shadows distort


Moreover, audio books confirm that she discovered BM ability only in Dark Empire II or Empire's End, can't remember. If you want, I can pull out necessary proves.

Way to ignore everything else in the last post, arhael. Fantastic debating.

Originally posted by Lightsnake "Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the
barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was
coming in short painful gasps."
Page 238

Jacen utilized his shatterpoint ability. Luke's wasn't weakened or affected in any way by this scar, until Jacen hit him there. The lone fact that Jacen managed to hit him there is already impressive.

Remember when Kit took on Grievous? When Saesee held his own with Mace? When Agen Kolar defeated Quinlan Vos? Yeah, all of them have solid, impressive feats

Impressive, yet, not even close to Palpatine's level. Saesee's ability to hold against Windu doesn't prove much as fight with Palpatine shows their real difference in skill and power.

He'd just stomped Luke hours ago. What changed? It wasn't even CLOSE
Exactly, nothing changed for Palpatine, his state was as always. However for Luke changed a lot. He finally cast of darkside and fully embraced lightside, which suits his personality far better and in which he's got over decade experience.

I love this. the DE audiobook has her specifically note their states and use the force to clear away the shadows that Palpatine's surrounded them with. Gee, wonder why in the comic she stands there glowing as the shadows distort
This statement was about Force harmony, which they utilized, when Palpatine started Force Storm.

Way to ignore everything else in the last post, arhael. Fantastic debating.

Here all the quotes from audio:

Dark Empire I - BM not mentioned.
Leia observing duel: "Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong.... they’re both moving so fast, I can hardly see them.... I feel waves of power.... the Dark Side and the Light...But...I feel...the Light...is winning!!"
She simply observes the duel.

Leia after Force Storm began: "But we can, Luke. We can do it. That’s what the Holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours. "

Dark Empire II:
LUKE: A little. Something about.... "Jedi Battle Meditation." I should study this book. I should study all these books.

Empire's End:
LEIA: This book is important, Han. It teaches the ancient Jedi Battle Meditation techniques. Threepio is helping me translate it.

THREEPIO: Very well. This section tells of a great Jedi Knight named Nomi Sunrider, who learned the art of Battle Meditation during the conflict of...

Conclusion
From audio books it is clear that Lea did not use BM during Luke's duel with Palpatine and only after duel utilized Force Harmony (which is not BM either). Moreover, she started learning BM only in empire's end.

Basically all you have is a comic image showing Leia glowing, which can be dismissed as art style. Because other characters also glow time to time:

Did they also experience Oneness or were empowering somebody?
Moreover, when Luke and Leia started utilizing Force Harmony after duel, neither of them was glowing in comic.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jacen utilized his shatterpoint ability. Luke's wasn't weakened or affected in any way by this scar, until Jacen hit him there. The lone fact that Jacen managed to hit him there is already impressive.

In other words, Jacen exploited a vulnerability that Luke wouldn't had, thanks to Lumiya? Ok, then. Never mind how Palpatine absolutely dominated Luke in their first battle


Impressive, yet, not even close to Palpatine's level. Saesee's ability to hold against Windu doesn't prove much as fight with Palpatine shows their real difference in skill and power.

Mace Windu considered all of them his peers, and Agen especially. And yes, not even close to Palpatine's level. Kind of the point. Palpatine tooled Savage and Maul together as well, and Maul casually stomped the Jedi Order's battlemaster, and one of the finest warriors the order had when he was in action


Exactly, nothing changed for Palpatine, his state was as always. However for Luke changed a lot. He finally cast of darkside and fully embraced lightside, which suits his personality far better and in which he's got over decade experience.

the avatar state isn't a new thing and is made explicit at points. Palpatine himself had become such a being, so Luke had to fully embrace the light side to match, just as Jacen did the Unifying Force when eh defeated Onimi.


This statement was about Force harmony, which they utilized, when Palpatine started Force Storm.

Except it's before the force storm


Here all the quotes from audio:

Dark Empire I - BM not mentioned.
Leia observing duel: "Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong.... they’re both moving so fast, I can hardly see them.... I feel waves of power.... the Dark Side and the Light...But...I feel...the Light...is winning!!"
She simply observes the duel.

So you actually acknowledge what I say, but...
Yeah, it takes some persistent stubbornness to quote something with later elaborations and still deny it


Leia after Force Storm began: "But we can, Luke. We can do it. That’s what the Holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours. "

Dark Empire II:
LUKE: A little. Something about.... "Jedi Battle Meditation." I should study this book. I should study all these books.

Empire's End:
LEIA: This book is important, Han. It teaches the ancient Jedi Battle Meditation techniques. Threepio is helping me translate it.

THREEPIO: Very well. This section tells of a great Jedi Knight named Nomi Sunrider, who learned the art of Battle Meditation during the conflict of...

Conclusion
From audio books it is clear that Lea did not use BM during Luke's duel with Palpatine and only after duel utilized Force Harmony (which is not BM either). Moreover, she started learning BM only in empire's end.

Right. It's clear all she does, from other points, is clear the shadows from their duel (you can even see the shadows break in the third panel), as, again, other things make quite clear.
That's why it was dark vs. Light. Both became embodiments of that side of the force there


Basically all you have is a comic image showing Leia glowing, which can be dismissed as art style. Because other characters also glow time to time:

Did they also experience Oneness or were empowering somebody?
Moreover, when Luke and Leia started utilizing Force Harmony [b]after duel
, neither of them was glowing in comic. [/B]

Hilarious. "Well, she's glowing when the shadows break and Luke throws Palpatine away, but...ART STYLE!"

Can you explain why before Palpatine stomped Luke into the ground in their duel?

In other words, Jacen exploited a vulnerability that Luke wouldn't had, thanks to Lumiya?

And exploiting that vulnerability gave Jacen at most few seconds to regain his balance. You said Luke was "weakened", so his strength, power or speed were reduced? Don't think so. Windu defeated Sidious by discovering a shatterpoint. So, do we lowball the entire Windu's performance because Sidious had a shtterpoint from whatever injury he sustained in his past? Don't think so either.

Mace Windu considered all of them his peers, and Agen especially. And yes, not even close to Palpatine's level. Kind of the point. Palpatine tooled Savage and Maul together as well, and Maul casually stomped the Jedi Order's battlemaster, and one of the finest warriors the order had when he was in action
And Kyle killed 7 dark Jedi after inferior training including Jerek, who apart from being very powerful absorbed power of Valley, which was meant to make him god like. Yet, Jacen still tooled him, even though Kyle was benefiting from battle-meld unlike Windu's strike team.

the avatar state isn't a new thing and is made explicit at points. Palpatine himself had become such a being, so Luke had to fully embrace the light side to match, just as Jacen did the Unifying Force when eh defeated Onimi.

There is a state called Oneness, which can happen only to lightside user and it is extremely rare phenomen. As for this fight, indeed, they were avatars of light and dark but it doesn't prove that Luke at that point experienced Oneness and fought better, than against Jacen. We have Windu vs Sidious, Yoda vs Sidious, Marek vs Sidious, did they also all entered unique state. And wasn't Palpatine embodiment of darkside in all those fights?
Luke got angered at Jacen and went for instant kill. And we know what happens, when Skywalkers get angry from fights of Anakin with Dooku and Luke with Vader. Not saying that with Jacen it was his most effective performance but certainly the deadliest.

Except it's before the force storm
_
Leia's quote after Sidious started channeling Force storm:_"But we can, Luke. We can do it. That’s what the Holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours._"
Moreover, sourcebook states that they used Force harmony to counter Forse Storm.

Hilarious. "Well, she's glowing when the shadows break and Luke throws Palpatine away, but...ART STYLE!"

Audio books confirm that she doesn't know BM and simply observes the duel. Both audiobook and sourcebook confirm that they used Force harmony after duel to counter Force Storm. Evidence clearly favors my opinion. You still have only image from comic, which can be dissmissed as art style. 😉

Can you explain why before Palpatine stomped Luke into the ground in their duel?

Easily. Instead of embrasing and putting confidence in Jedi teachings that he studied and practised over decade, he embrased Sith teachings in which his experience amounts to... two days?
Palpatine, also, utilized Dun Moch together with mental influence, which worked so well on darkside corrupted Luke that by the end of the duel he ended up mind dominated. And we all know that Dun Moch is utilized by Sith to decrease foe's combat effectiviness and increase influence over them, so it's not a surprise that Luke lost.

Mara Jade; Sidious; same number of syllables in each name so neither could possibly conquer the other.

Originally posted by Arhael
And exploiting that vulnerability gave Jacen at most few seconds to regain his balance. You said Luke was "weakened", so his strength, power or speed were reduced? Don't think so. Windu defeated Sidious by discovering a shatterpoint. So, do we lowball the entire Windu's performance because Sidious had a shtterpoint from whatever injury he sustained in his past? Don't think so either
.

Luke had weaknesses that Jacen could exploit that Luke did not and would not have at other points, and you know it.
and 'whatever injury' Palpatine sustained in the past? I get tired of explaining this: Palpatine's shatterpoint was Anakin himself.

and when was Jacen described as using the Shatterpoint ability in that fight?


And Kyle killed 7 dark Jedi after inferior training including Jerek, who apart from being very powerful absorbed power of Valley, which was meant to make him god like. Yet, Jacen still tooled him, even though Kyle was benefiting from battle-meld unlike Windu's strike team.

Interesting way to neglect how Jacen caught him by a sneak attack.
You didn't note Kyle defeated these Dark Jedi separately (he drew on the Dark Side to defeat Boc, by the by),a nd that Kyle defeated Jerec by blocking him off from the Valley's power according to the Dark Forces Saga


There is a state called Oneness, which can happen only to lightside user and it is extremely rare phenomen. As for this fight, indeed, they were avatars of light and dark but it doesn't prove that Luke at that point experienced Oneness and fought better, than against Jacen.

Ok, you admit they became avatars? Then we're done with that argument.


We have Windu vs Sidious, Yoda vs Sidious, Marek vs Sidious, did they also all entered unique state. And wasn't Palpatine embodiment of darkside in all those fights?

No. Palpatine is never described as a dark nexus or the avatar of the darkside then. Galen opened himself to the force simply to survive briefly, and died in the process at the end. Yoda also...never entered that state to any knowledge.


Luke got angered at Jacen and went for instant kill. And we know what happens, when Skywalkers get angry from fights of Anakin with Dooku and Luke with Vader. Not saying that with Jacen it was his most effective performance but certainly the deadliest.

And? He went to kill Jacen, yes. Luke went to kill Kueller, too, and was still performing the worst. Jacen fought intelligently, but not more powerfully, and he was growing stronger from any injury that wasn't a fatality until the end.


_
Leia's quote after Sidious started channeling Force storm:_"But we can, Luke. We can do it. That’s what the Holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours._"
Moreover, sourcebook states that they used Force harmony to counter Forse Storm.

Never my point, nor is this a counter


Audio books confirm that she doesn't know BM and simply observes the duel. Both audiobook and sourcebook confirm that they used Force harmony after duel to counter Force Storm. Evidence clearly favors my opinion. You still have only image from comic, which can be dissmissed as art style. 😉-

Mmhmm. Leia glowing with force energy and the shadpws breaking means nothing
Moreove,r when is it said Leia didn't know BM elsewhere? We have select comments on it besides, when the endnotes and the DE sourcebook comment on her studying from Bodo Baas's Holocron.


Easily. Instead of embrasing and putting confidence in Jedi teachings that he studied and practised over decade, he embrased Sith teachings in which his experience amounts to... two days?

Right. Luke had studied Jedi techniques over decades, despite DE taking place 6 years after ROTJ. He wasn't using Sith techs against Palpatine either, so I have no idea what you mean.


Palpatine, also, utilized Dun Moch together with mental influence, which worked so well on darkside corrupted Luke that by the end of the duel he ended up mind dominated. And we all know that Dun Moch is utilized by Sith to decrease foe's combat effectiviness and increase influence over them, so it's not a surprise that Luke lost.

Let's see evidence of this from the comic? a mention of 'Dun Moch' please.
When he fought Luke at the end of DE, he'd zapped him with Force Lightnin and was continuing taunting as ever, too.


Luke had weaknesses that Jacen could exploit that Luke did not and would not have at other points, and you know it.
and 'whatever injury' Palpatine sustained in the past? I get tired of explaining this: Palpatine's shatterpoint was Anakin himself.

Ye, checked the book myself recently, don't get why so many people claimed that Windu won because of shatterpoint.
In any case that Luke's weakness didn't affect his overall performance.
Jacen's first attack was described as" rib-crunching roundhouse", so even, if it wasn't barely healed wound, it is still hell lot of impact. But it doesn't matter because Luke didn't give a fvck that it was painful:
Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been. - Luke continued pawning Jacen as if that attack meant nothing.

He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing. - Yes, looks like it affected Luke a lot but again it didn't weaken his performance and even stronger retalation followed:
Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. - It is clear that Luke tolerated pain, so his combat performance wasn't affected in any way. He still wasn't weaken and could put full strength into his attack that nearly killed Jacen.

Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down. - This is where Luke is weakened as with crippled leg he can't move around as effectively. And I point out that this injury is irrelevant to healed wound, Luke simply failed to defend against it.
And here is the prove that he is weakened only after knee strike:
Luke rolled over his throbbing knee and spun back to his feet with a clearing sweep.

His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head. Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green.

Luke started forward, his injured knee buckling each time he put weight on it.

Narration reminds us about his leg on many occasions, moreover, Jacen later kicked him in the same knee again injuring it farther. But narration never reminds us about his healed wound, it caused only pain when hit, which he tolerated without any problem and still utilised full strength.

Interesting way to neglect how Jacen caught him by a sneak attack.
You didn't note Kyle defeated these Dark Jedi separately (he drew on the Dark Side to defeat -)Boc, by the by),a nd that Kyle defeated Jerec by blocking him off from the Valley's power according to the Dark Forces Saga
Neglect? Jacen would have chopped Kyle's leg off, if not battle-meld, he was clear Kyle's superior and defended effortlessly enough to fight against all 4 and observe and sense surroundings.

Why do I need to note things you likely know yourself? I didn't say he did it simultaneously either. And Jerec was very powerful even
before valley and was shown killing a Jedi master with Force alone. And Kyle still defeated him with very inferior training.

Ok, you admit they became avatars? Then we're done with that argument.

No. Palpatine is never described as a dark nexus or the avatar of the darkside then. Galen opened himself to the force simply to survive briefly, and died in the process at the end. Yoda also...never entered that state to any knowledge.


This word "avatar" means nothing. There is no source describing Luke becoming "tool of the Force", word "avatar' isn't mentioned anywhere either. Leia felt it as light confronting dark because it was pure lightsider against pure darksider, nothing more. Same situation with Yoda vs Sidious - pure lightsider vs pure darksider.
But his physical presence was an illusion; the truth of him could be seen only in the Force.

In the Force, he was a fountain of light. - Leia felt Luke as light. Sidious felt Yoda as fountain of light, while he was referred as the shadow. There is simply no difference, your assumption about Luke experiencing Oneness like Jacen in fight with Onimi stays assumption. Moreover, in comic Luke wasn't even glowing, while Jacen was like a golden torch. You consider Leia's apparent glowing, yet, entirely skeep the fact that he doesn't.

And? He went to kill Jacen, yes. Luke went to kill Kueller, too, and was still performing the worst. Jacen fought intelligently, but not more powerfully, and he was growing stronger from any injury that wasn't a fatality until the end.

I intentionally brought up a lot of quotes from that fight.
Luke is clearly more skilled than in DE as he is shown utilising kicks, elbows and eye poking instead of pure fencing.

He caught Jacen off guard with Force blast that he hit with "so much cracking and crashing", yet it didn't do to him any serious damage. After Jacen evened it out by displaying his TK:
Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.

"Dad, look — "

Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood. - Luke even was warned by Ben and still failed to defend against it.

And even after all those injuries they both sustained, they still fought faster than the eye could follow:
They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter.

In this fight there is no apparent power difference between them. They both inflicted serious damage to each other. They both successfully utilised TK against each other. And they both fought faster than the eye could follow. The only difference was that Luke was more talented with lightsaber, while Jacen - more versatile.

You simply have no ground to assume that far more experienced, skilled and cunning Luke fought less effectively or slower than against Sidious. And for me such display against more powerful and deadly version of Luke is enough to put Jacen on level or above Sidious in terms of combat.

Mmhmm. Leia glowing with force energy and the shadpws breaking means nothing
Moreover when is it said Leia didn't know BM elsewhere? We have select comments on it besides, when the endnotes and the DE sourcebook comment on her studying from Bodo Baas's Holocron.

Leia DID NOT study Holocron teachings before duel. She switched it on and Bodo told her his prophesy about them confronting Sidious together. After she rushed to help Luke. After duel she said "let me add my power to yours, that's what holocron meant". There is no source confirming that she utilised bm during duel and I already provided you with quotes proving that she and C3PO discovered teachings of bm from a book in Empire's end and still she did not proceed to learn it at that point.

I find it funny how you rely on glowing Leia in comic assuming she empowered him during duel and at the same time on her feeling Luke as light assuming that he experienced Oneness, when he doesn't even glow in comic. Make your mind which source to follow. In any case no source says that she was empowering him during duel, nor that he experienced oneness with the Force at that point. Luke had enough potential and experience on his own to show equal or better result, than Windu or Yoda.

Right. Luke had studied Jedi techniques over decades, despite DE taking place 6 years after ROTJ. He wasn't using Sith techs against Palpatine either, so I have no idea what you mean.
Luke started learning in 0 New Hope from Obi-Wan in case you forgot, DE is in 11, hence over decade. Didn't use Sith techs against Palpatine? Seriously? So killing defenceless clones, utilising Dun Moch(although lame), using anger and manifesting it into Force lightning is not the core of Sith teachings? Was it electric judgement then produced by his perfect Jedi calm?

Let's see evidence of this from the comic? a mention of 'Dun Moch' please.
When he fought Luke at the end of DE, he'd zapped him with Force Lightnin and was continuing taunting as ever, too.
And Sidious laughed off that lightning and continued taunting.
You can argue as much as you want but lightside DE Luke > darkside DE Luke for obvious reasons.

Lol.

Mara batmans, only it's the time Batman got his back broken.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO

Lmao, Mara stomps.