The Endless are much more the embodiment of their abstract concepts than Marvel's, IMO. IIRC, the only way Death of the Endless would cease to exist is if all life ceased.
So it would stand to reason that if the Anti-Monitor destroyed everything, that Death would cease to exist. Except he'd still be alive, and I don't know if he would have to die for Death to end.
So yeah, doesn't work like Marvel where Death runs and/or gets kicked to the curb every time there's a big baddie around the corner.
^ I completely agree. I've always liked the fact that DC deals with the Endless as concepts first, and characters second.
For instance, we saw in this scene that Death and Destiny are the last 'things' that survive at the end of all things:
Once everything else is destroyed, the concept Destiny embodies no longer has any meaning--so Death takes him. Once Destiny is gone, there is no longer a need for the concept Death embodies, as everything else throughout creation is dead... So her final task is to: "put it all in order, and lock the place behind her as she leaves."
Loved that scene. droolio
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Anyway, in a one-on-one battle, there is really no way AM can kill/beat the concept of Death... Sounds like an oxymoron, actually.
Death wins.
Originally posted by NemeBroI assume this is the scene you're referring to:
Some beings are beyond her power and influence though, no?I know Lucifer was, how about the Spectre?
However,earlier on these comments were made:
Lucifer: "From birth to death. How small our circuits are. How unerringly we find the paths that will unmake us... Even we who call ourselves immortal."
Death: "I know, I know. Not quite time, YET."
I think that Lucifer may have meant that Death had no claim on him at THAT point in time. After all, we know Angels can be killed under the right circumstances... And Death certainly implied that she would eventually take Lucifer. /shrug
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Anyway, AM has been killed before--so he is definitely not beyond Death's influence.
Originally posted by CogitoThat scene still confuses me. Did Michael reform, or did Lucifer recreate him? Seems to me that if Michael can fully reform so easily under his own power, he would have done so eons prior to Lucifer slicing him... Instead of, you know, spending all that time near-death in a dungeon. /shrug
^ Yet Michael, when he died in the void, returned to life immediately thereafter.So, Death, with regards to Michael (& Lucifer, presumably) remains ambiguous.
Originally posted by Galan007
Seems to me that if Michael can fully reform so easily under his own power, he would have done so eons prior to Lucifer slicing him... Instead of, you know, spending all that time near-death in a dungeon. /shrug
That was his problem, from my interpretation. He wasn't killed...he was kept by Sandalphon in a nearly dead state but never allowed to die. Perhaps he could have killed himself, but that would have released his energies and destroyed creation.
That's how I read it, at least.
^ So Michael can only reform after he 'dies'? Crikey, that doesn't make sense to me. Guess it is a logical answer though--depending on your interpretation.
Either way, I still don't think Lucifer is beyond Death in the literal sense. If anything had the potential to die, be destroyed, etc. then Death has some stake in them--and imo, Lucifer's own statement coupled with Death's remark, implies that he can/will die at some point.
Originally posted by Galan007I feel like my interpretation was supported by some statement on panel. I'll look into it when I have time.
^ So Michael can only reform after he 'dies'? Crikey, that doesn't make sense to me. Guess it is a logical answer though--depending on your interpretation.
Originally posted by Galan007We'll never know now.
Either way, I still don't think Lucifer is beyond Death in the literal sense. If anything had the potential to die, be destroyed, etc. then Death has some stake in them--and imo, Lucifer's own statement coupled with Death's remark, implies that he can/will die at some point.
Originally posted by CogitoCool. I don't remember seeing that type of comment, but it has also been a long time since I read the Lucifer series thoroughly--so it may very well exist.
I feel like my interpretation was supported by some statement on panel. I'll look into it when I have time.
Let me know if you find it.
Originally posted by CogitoLucky for you. uhuh
We'll never know now.
Originally posted by Galan007
That scene still confuses me. Did Michael reform, or did Lucifer recreate him? Seems to me that if Michael can fully reform so easily under his own power, he would have done so eons prior to Lucifer slicing him... Instead of, you know, spending all that time near-death in a dungeon. /shrug
I don't have the scan on me, but I seem to remember Lucifer waving his hand when mike is reformed. I took that to mean that the newly omnipotent Lucifer recreated him.
Originally posted by zopzop
COIE AM (at full power) stomps Her and Her entire family.Non COIE AM is weaksauce so she wins.
I have to agree with this.
Something like COIE AM should be beyond Abstracts. Just like Lucifer and Michael should be beyond Abstracts.
Regular AM would lose though. Probably by sheer "aging", in the sense that when their universe ends, he's one of the beings that'll be gone before Destiny and Death finally go.
Death wins, it's been stated a number of times that unlike most of the Endless, Death really doesn't have any rules governing her, other than what she imposes, and can just outright kill beings (for instance, Dream, a multiversal abstract), and the Furies who were destroying the entire Dreaming and had been stated to have taken revenge on entire universes were clearly fearful of her when she got angry.
That scene still confuses me. Did Michael reform, or did Lucifer recreate him? Seems to me that if Michael can fully reform so easily under his own power, he would have done so eons prior to Lucifer slicing him... Instead of, you know, spending all that time near-death in a dungeon. /shrug
Seeing what happens at Ygdrasil later in the series, I assumed it was Lucifer who reformed Michael, seeing as later even when Elaine shunts the power into a third creation, Michael doesn't resurrect himself (although that could be put down to the fact he used Elaine as a vessal....
I have to agree with this.Something like COIE AM should be beyond Abstracts. Just like Lucifer and Michael should be beyond Abstracts.
I'd disagree here, as powerful as COIE AM was, he was still under the influence of the Endless, as seen namely in the fact that he died. As powerful as he was there's nothing particularly abstract about him...
I'd say the big difference between AM and Michael and Lucifer is that M/L are essentially embodiments of the Presence made flesh (power/will), so are beyond essentially anything in terms of raw power (although both are still subject to Death and Destiny at least)
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Death wins, it's been stated a number of times that unlike most of the Endless, Death really doesn't have any rules governing her, other than what she imposes, and can just outright kill beings (for instance, Dream, a multiversal abstract), and the Furies who were destroying the entire Dreaming and had been stated to have taken revenge on entire universes were clearly fearful of her when she got angry.Seeing what happens at Ygdrasil later in the series, I assumed it was Lucifer who reformed Michael, seeing as later even when Elaine shunts the power into a third creation, Michael doesn't resurrect himself (although that could be put down to the fact he used Elaine as a vessal....
I'd disagree here, as powerful as COIE AM was, he was still under the influence of the Endless, as seen namely in the fact that he died. As powerful as he was there's nothing particularly abstract about him...
I'd say the big difference between AM and Michael and Lucifer is that M/L are essentially embodiments of the Presence made flesh (power/will), so are beyond essentially anything in terms of raw power (although both are still subject to Death and Destiny at least)
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Death of the Endless. Madame Xanadu tried binding Death, only to be told that it wouldn't work because magic doesn't really work on her, I don't think much does. Madame defining Death saying shes "The one who trumps and defines all of existence".
Btw I've always thought it was Michael just reforming himself and Lucifer moving his hands and arms in that way was something to do with his multiverse but from looking at it from Lucifer reforming Michael that makes more sense to me.
