Anti-Monitor vs Death of the Endless

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Death wins, it's been stated a number of times that unlike most of the Endless, Death really doesn't have any rules governing her, other than what she imposes, and can just outright kill beings (for instance, Dream, a multiversal abstract), and the Furies who were destroying the entire Dreaming and had been stated to have taken revenge on entire universes were clearly fearful of her when she got angry.

Seeing what happens at Ygdrasil later in the series, I assumed it was Lucifer who reformed Michael, seeing as later even when Elaine shunts the power into a third creation, Michael doesn't resurrect himself (although that could be put down to the fact he used Elaine as a vessal....

I'd disagree here, as powerful as COIE AM was, he was still under the influence of the Endless, as seen namely in the fact that he died. As powerful as he was there's nothing particularly abstract about him...

I'd say the big difference between AM and Michael and Lucifer is that M/L are essentially embodiments of the Presence made flesh (power/will), so are beyond essentially anything in terms of raw power (although both are still subject to Death and Destiny at least)

👆

there is really nothing am could do to harm her. he was a self-made uber power, but still, he was able to die.

Originally posted by Galan007
I assume this is the scene you're referring to:

Lucifer: "You have no claim on me."

However,earlier on these comments were made:

Lucifer: "From birth to death. How small our circuits are. How unerringly we find the paths that will unmake us... Even we who call ourselves immortal."

Death: "I know, I know. Not quite time, YET."

I think that Lucifer may have meant that Death had no claim on him at THAT point in time. After all, we know Angels can be killed under the right circumstances... And Death certainly implied that she would eventually take Lucifer. /shrug

---

Anyway, AM has been killed before--so he is definitely not beyond Death's influence.

Ok, so couple things as I perused some of Lucifer again.

Originally posted by Cogito
I feel like my interpretation was supported by some statement on panel. I'll look into it when I have time.

The only thing that was said (that I found), was Michael warning Sandalphon about what would happen if he were to die in his captivity:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Michael_Torture.jpg
"Sandalphon, spare me the moral. You know what I am, and what I contain. By torturing me, you put the whole of creation at terrible risk."

As for Lucifer and his ability to die, here's a more complete picture of what you posted some scans of. Some of it supports the idea that perhaps Lucifer could die, and some of it casts more doubt.

Recap: The Basanos (Plot-device incarnate) nearly kill Lucifer by burning him up. His wings (the source of his power) are almost entirely burned. The remaining two unburned fall out.

Evidence for death being possible
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/LuciferDeath1.jpg
Elaine: "Will he die? I don't think I could bear it if he died"
Meleos: "He is made of will, as your father Michael is made of power. He might survive in spite of everything. I have been doing what little I could to mend him. Because if he dies, something terrible is going to happen."

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Closetodeath.jpg
Lucifer is on the brink of death. Any action could send him one way or the other.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_BusStop.jpg
Among other things, Lucifer: "I intend to surive this" (i.e. it's possible I could not?)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/God_Luciferdeath.jpg
God: "Did I not tell you that your brother Lucifer was given over to destruction? That if only Heaven held its hand, he would surely die, and all his works come to naught?"
(Michael started a chain of events that caused Elaine to save Lucifer)

Evidence against death being possible
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Flame.jpg
Elaine: "You're not going to answer my question, are you" (will he die?)
Meleos: "Where the flame goes, wood turns to charcoal, water to steam, flesh into ash. But he is not flesh, and you are not flesh."

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer-FirstCreation.jpg
Meleos: "When God made the world, the first thing he created was the host of heaven, beginning with your father, Michael -- and Lucifer." "For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries"
For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Creation.jpg
Death: "You and Michael were his first big ideas. You came out pretty much undiluted"

Would those two statements not mean that it was Lucifer and Michael that created abstracts such as the Endless? It's a grey area for sure.

Through all of this though, Lucifer was powerless. Perhaps that is the only reason he could die
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Feathers.jpg
Lucifer: "Meleos -- in my wings, there should have been two feathers untouched by the flame. Did you find them?"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Death.jpg
Lucifer: "They absorbed most of my power and essence when I burned"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_powerless.jpg
Meleos: "Then you're powerless without the feathers? Lucifer, you've destroyed me. You've destroyed us all."

👆 Glad you found this stuff...

Originally posted by Cogito
As for Lucifer and his ability to die, here's a more complete picture of what you posted some scans of. Some of it supports the idea that perhaps Lucifer could die, and some of it casts more doubt.

Recap: The Basanos (Plot-device incarnate) nearly kill Lucifer by burning him up. His wings (the source of his power) are almost entirely burned. The remaining two unburned fall out.

Evidence for death being possible
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/LuciferDeath1.jpg
Elaine: "Will he die? I don't think I could bear it if he died"
Meleos: "He is made of will, as your father Michael is made of power. He might survive in spite of everything. I have been doing what little I could to mend him. Because if he dies, something terrible is going to happen."

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Closetodeath.jpg
Lucifer is on the brink of death. Any action could send him one way or the other.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_BusStop.jpg
Among other things, Lucifer: "I intend to surive this" (i.e. it's possible I could not?)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/God_Luciferdeath.jpg
God: "Did I not tell you that your brother Lucifer was given over to destruction? That if only Heaven held its hand, he would surely die, and all his works come to naught?"
(Michael started a chain of events that caused Elaine to save Lucifer)

Originally posted by Cogito
Evidence against death being possible
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Flame.jpg
Elaine: "You're not going to answer my question, are you" (will he die?)
Meleos: "Where the flame goes, wood turns to charcoal, water to steam, flesh into ash. But he is not flesh, and you are not flesh."

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer-FirstCreation.jpg
Meleos: "When God made the world, the first thing he created was the host of heaven, beginning with your father, Michael -- and Lucifer." "For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries"
For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Creation.jpg
Death: "You and Michael were his first big ideas. You came out pretty much undiluted"

Would those two statements not mean that it was Lucifer and Michael that created abstracts such as the Endless? It's a grey area for sure.

Through all of this though, Lucifer was powerless. Perhaps that is the only reason he could die
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Feathers.jpg
Lucifer: "Meleos -- in my wings, there should have been two feathers untouched by the flame. Did you find them?"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Death.jpg
Lucifer: "They absorbed most of my power and essence when I burned"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_powerless.jpg
Meleos: "Then you're powerless without the feathers? Lucifer, you've destroyed me. You've destroyed us all."

Sidenote: Lucifer and Death's 'chat' is one of the best scenes of dialogue I've ever read. droolio

Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, all of these scenes are also pretty ambiguous, but I still don't really see how any of it suggests that Lucifer is death-proof..?

It doesn't really. Just reinforcing his station.

Originally posted by Galan007
That scene still confuses me. Did Michael reform, or did Lucifer recreate him?

If Lucifer recreated him with a gesture, that opens a whole new dimension to Lucifer's power. It becomes easily his greatest feat, and probably the second or third best in comics.

/shrug