Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Windu isn't a practitioner of Tutaminis to my knowledge. He's never caught lightning bare-handed. Revan has, with Nyriss' extremely potent lightning, but was unable to do the same with Vitiates.
Also, lets not forget that lightning that killed her came from Revan who didn't mind using darkside, so we can assume that he added his own power as well. Other theory could be that he gave it out in a single burst instead of prolonged lightning, so it's voltage was much higher.
The only thing that makes it look so potent is that she put up Force barrier and still turned into ashes. But look at next observation. Nephtys, you said that Windu doesn't have the ability to absorb, also, we know that Nyriss put up defense barrier, while Windu didn't. Yet, Sidoius' lightning didn't turn Windu to ashes.
When I asked SW_legion to prove that Vitiate's lightning is stronger than Sidious', the best hilarious argument he came up with is that Vitiate's lightning had "dozen bolts", while Sidious in movie picture had only three. "The more bolts, the harder to counter." However, he failed to notice that Nyriss' lightning was, also described as "dozen bolts".
A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.
So, do we draw a conclusion that Nyriss' lightning from one hand was stronger than Sidious' from both hands because it had much more bolts and turned powerful Force user with defenses up into ashes, while his didn't turn to ashes even a defensless opponent? Such logic is fvcked up.
Also, I don't believe Dooku's lightning is any weaker, than her. It was obviously much weaker, than Sidious but so was Nyriss' comparing to Vitiate. But still his lightning could incapatiate even Anakin within seconds. Lightning potency depends on power and Dooku was indeed immensely powerful as he was a match for Anakin both in combat and the Force and utterly trolled Obi-Wan.
Of course most of what I said is just assumptions, theories and speculation. But things simply don't add up.
Is her lightning realy THAT strong or it is just crappy Force portrayal? (And Revan writer indeed sucks at it)
Originally posted by Arhael
How can her lightning be extremely potent?
If it was so potent Revan would have hard time absorbing it. Considering that Vitiate's lightning was described as "infinitively more powerful" means that her lightning was nowhere near to extrememly potent.
Mind you, neither Scourge and nor Meetra were defenceless against even lethal bursts of Force Lightning but they stood no chance against Nyriss's signature FLS.
As far as Revan is concerned, he had exceptional command of the Force. He is among the elite Force wielders in Star Wars mythos. And he had extreme command of Tutaminis. His performance against Nyriss is testament of his incredible power and command of Tutaminis.
Why so surprised? We have seen Satele Shan blocking even a freaking lightsaber strike with her bare hands.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, lets not forget that lightning that killed her came from Revan who didn't mind using darkside, so we can assume that he added his own power as well. Other theory could be that he gave it out in a single burst instead of prolonged lightning, so it's voltage was much higher.
Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her.
And the attack was continuous:
She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.
Nyriss's FLS was so potent that she herself could not tolerate it and got reduced to ash by it. This is an eye opener.
Originally posted by Arhael
The only thing that makes it look so potent is that she put up Force barrier and still turned into ashes. But look at next observation. Nephtys, you said that Windu doesn't have the ability to absorb, also, we know that Nyriss put up defense barrier, while Windu didn't. Yet, Sidoius' lightning didn't turn Windu to ashes.
Sidious' proficiency in Force Lightning during ROTS would not be as good as in later eras. This is what I gather from it.
Originally posted by Arhael
When I asked SW_legion to prove that Vitiate's lightning is stronger than Sidious', the best hilarious argument he came up with is that Vitiate's lightning had "dozen bolts", while Sidious in movie picture had only three. "The more bolts, the harder to counter." However, he failed to notice that Nyriss' lightning was, also described as "dozen bolts".
A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.So, do we draw a conclusion that Nyriss' lightning from one hand was stronger than Sidious' from both hands because it had much more bolts and turned powerful Force user with defenses up into ashes, while his didn't turn to ashes even a defensless opponent? Such logic is fvcked up.
FLS is normally unleashed upon multiple opponents, which was what Nyriss intended to do in her last fight. However, it can be focused upon a single opponent in an attempt to overwhelm his/her defensive capabilities rather quickly.
As far as Mace is concerned, he fell from the building and his wounds could not determined. However, he did not seemed to be badly burned prior to his fall. In contrast, Yoda managed to block Sidious's Force Lightning assault with his bare hands for a while. But Yoda was clearly pushed to his limits and chose to retreat after disengagment.
Yes! Sidious was a proficient practitioner of Force Lightning. However, he got better in later eras.
Therefore, all accounts strongly favor Vitiate.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, I don't believe Dooku's lightning is any weaker, than her. It was obviously much weaker, than Sidious but so was Nyriss' comparing to Vitiate. But still his lightning could incapatiate even Anakin within seconds. Lightning potency depends on power and Dooku was indeed immensely powerful as he was a match for Anakin both in combat and the Force and utterly trolled Obi-Wan.
Nyriss was far more proficient in Force Lightning then Dooku. She seems to be on par with Sidious (OT incarnation) or slightly better. And Vitiate seems to be far more proficient in Force Lightning then any Sith Lord.
Also, Revan and Satele's command of Tutaminis seems to greater then that of Yoda.
Originally posted by Arhael
Of course most of what I said is just assumptions, theories and speculation. But things simply don't add up.
Is her lightning realy THAT strong or it is just crappy Force portrayal? (And Revan writer indeed sucks at it)
Drew Karpyshyn made it apparent that KOTOR era witnessed extremely powerful Force wielders.
In other words Nyriss and Vitiate were top gear at lightning, while Dooku and Palpatine sucked. And Revan was extremely proficient at absorbing, while Yoda was so so because couldn't even stop Palpatine, who's lightning was so inferior comparing to Nyriss. Wondering, if being the most powerful Sith ever and member of Rule of Two and most powerful Jedi ever from Golden Age of the Jedi still has any relevance in this universe.
I concede. You win. 👆
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nyriss's FLS was so potent that she herself could not tolerate it and got reduced to ash by it. This is an eye opener.
Hadn't she just poured all her strength into that lightning?
Also they were on Dromund Kaas, a force nexus and she had to charge up the attack, so it isn't indicative of her normal attack and can't be compared to the non-charged attacks of Sidious etc.
Other than that though I can't see anything to disagree with in your post. Sorry Ahael but he makes a good case.
Any feats to support that neither were defenseless against lightning? Scourge failed to prove it against decaying Sith. And Meetra proved that she is defenseless against lightning as she tried to dodge it instead of blocking. She didn't know Nyriss' lightning potency, so it makes sense that she would try to block it, if she could.
Mind you, neither Scourge and nor Meetra were defenceless against even lethal bursts of Force Lightning but they stood no chance against Nyriss's signature FLS.
Baseless assumption, which is becoming a norm with you. I am not surprised.And I stated that it is assumption, theory and speculation myself, in case if you didn't noticed.
And the attack was continuous:In this case the word "continued" means that the bolts went through the barrier and continued unabated towards her body.
Here is the prove that it was instant:
The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.
It consumed her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash. So my assumption of Revan giving her power out in a single burst stands.
Hadn't she just poured all her strength into that lightning?Novel does not specify that she got exhausted in any way.Also they were on Dromund Kaas, a force nexus and she had to charge up the attack, so it isn't indicative of her normal attack and can't be compared to the non-charged attacks of Sidious etc.
Other than that though I can't see anything to disagree with in your post. Sorry Ahael but he makes a good case.
Also, I point out that Drew is the only author I know, in who's books characters gather power to throw lightning, in other books they simply thow it by drawing on their anger, without gathering anything. Moreover, only in his books after giving out that gathered attack they end up Force exhausted like in that case with another Council member. Also, only in his book character because of old age becomes "shell of what he have ones been". Yoda doesn't seem very weak because of age for example and he was even limping unlike that Council member.
It is, also, the only book, where characters put up Force barriers against lightning or try to dodge it instead of simplest solution of blocking it with lightsaber.
But anyway his case is still good that's why I conceded. My own analysis concludes that her lightning from one hand is way stronger, than Sidious' from two hands. And on this basis it is safe to conclude that Vitiate's lightning is infinitely more powerful, than Palpatine's. And to farther prove this assumption Palpatine's lightning couldn't kill inferior and inexperienced Luke. Also, in DE his lightning didn't do a thing to Luke and Luke is not an absorb practitioner.
I, also, can prove that Abeloth's lightning is even weaker, than Dooku's. On two occasions she continuously electrocuted Luke but it has done nothing more, than weakened him. 👆. In comparison Dooku's lightning affected Anakin much more effectively and he demonstrated it three times.
Originally posted by Arhael
Any feats to support that neither were defenseless against lightning? Scourge failed to prove it against decaying Sith. And Meetra proved that she is defenseless against lightning as she tried to dodge it instead of blocking. She didn't know Nyriss' lightning potency, so it makes sense that she would try to block it, if she could.
She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.
With similar burst of lightning, Nyriss accomplished this first;
Scourge nodded at the guards. In response to his silent command they crept to the foot of the stairs and peered up toward the door above.
A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into
charred and smoking husks.
Scourge took a step back, knowing exactly who had been responsible for unleashing the fury of the dark side against the hapless guards.
Originally posted by Arhael
And I stated that it is assumption, theory and speculation myself, in case if you didn't noticed.
Originally posted by Arhael
In this case the word "continued" means that the bolts went through the barrier and continued unabated towards her body.Here is the prove that it was instant:
The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.
It consumed her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash. So my assumption of Revan giving her power out in a single burst stands.
In other words, Revan drew all 12 bolts towards himself and deflected all of them back to their source.
Originally posted by Arhael
Novel does not specify that she got exhausted in any way.
Neither it specifies that she was drawing on power of darkside nexus.
Also, there is nothing to suggest that Sidious' lightning was non-charged.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, I point out that Drew is the only author I know, in who's books characters gather power to throw lightning, in other books they simply thow it by drawing on their anger, without gathering anything. Moreover, only in his books after giving out that gathered attack they end up Force exhausted like in that case with another Council member. Also, only in his book character because of old age becomes "shell of what he have ones been". Yoda doesn't seem very weak because of age for example and he was even limping unlike that Council member.
It is, also, the only book, where characters put up Force barriers against lightning or try to dodge it instead of simplest solution of blocking it with lightsaber.
He struggled with moving an X-Wing fighter.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hadn't she just poured all her strength into that lightning?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also they were on Dromund Kaas, a force nexus and she had to charge up the attack, so it isn't indicative of her normal attack and can't be compared to the non-charged attacks of Sidious etc.Other than that though I can't see anything to disagree with in your post. Sorry Ahael but he makes a good case.
I believe that dark side nexus does not significantly increases the strength of a dark sider unless drawn upon in a significant fashion.
However, by default, it can make it easier for a dark sider to replenish energies and negatively impact the Farsight capabilites of the Jedi.
Why? If a world is a dark side nexus then the dark side is stronger there. Meaning every time some one uses the dark side there power should be stronger as well.
Anyway, it doesn't lower Revan's feat of absorbing the lightning. However, I do have one question as I don't have the book with me right now. But does Nyriss release a continuous stream or is it a short burst?
Which means both of them did not display ability to block lightning. Scourge displayed ability to put barrier against another council member but it wasn't enough to block lightning. As for Meetra she never showed even any attempt to block it, which implies she is defenseless and I hate this fact, so lame of author to lowball so much such a great character.
She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.With similar burst of lightning, Nyriss accomplished this first;
Their is no need for assumptions in this case.There is need, since her lightning attack was continues but Revan's instant.
Revan's attack was instant as I already mentioned:
...the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash"
Revan simply deflected her power back at her. She got engulfed by it and was destroyed.In other words, Revan drew all 12 bolts towards himself and deflected all of them back to their source.
Also, I want to rise another point.
Yoda, in movie did not absorb lightning into himself, he contained it in his grasp as we can see ball of energy in his hand and then he threw that ball back.
However, Revan unlike Yoda absorbed it into himself:
"channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power"
This looks like he converted her lightning into extra power he could utilize, which means that he needed to produce his own lightning, which means that he would utilize his own potential and skill to produce his own lightning. Therefore, my assumption about him combining his own power with hers stands.
To farther strengthen my point I will refer to Nyriss quote:
"...Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her."
It doesn't say that he unleashed her own lightning against her, it says power, which proves that Revan produced his own lightning. And the fact that he unleashed the power of her own attacks means that Revan's lightning became more potent, than it normally would be. Also, her statement doesn't prove that he did not use his own power, it just states that he unleashed her power against her, it's all she was concerned at that point.
Didn't Yoda grew weak on Dagobah due to age factor?
He struggled with moving an X-Wing fighter.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Windu isn't a practitioner of Tutaminis to my knowledge. He's never caught lightning bare-handed. Revan has, with Nyriss' extremely potent lightning, but was unable to do the same with Vitiates.
But Vitiate needed to charge up his lightning to overpower him, and even then it was stupid of Revan to try and catch it with his hands.
More stupid of him not to throw his lightsaber. Especially when later Saber throw completely catches Lord Vitiate off guard.
Hmmm the helm of Darth Nihlus comes to SWTOR soon...I can see his return coming soon.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres a ROTS comic?
Yup it's hilarious. Instead of Force pushing Sidious, Yoda drop kicks him into his desk chair. Grievous puts up a bit of a better fight...there is no Battle of Utapau.
I do not believe that Darth Nyriss is a superior lightning user to Sidious. Although most prequel sources don't display the top tier Sith and Jedi as powerfully as the KOTOR era ones do, we do have some redeeming feats.
Like Yoda lifting an army of droids and making them collide with a swarm of fighters. And TFU luckily adds in some feats for Galen Marek, which can be used to powerscale Sidious' lightning. Marek's lightning feats are => Nyriss'.