Maybe we can start listing some of the exotic, out of the norm attacks for both as a comparison?
For SS I've heard/seen the board trapping/phantom zone type thing for instance, and for Thor I've heard about him summoning "winds from a 1000 worlds" or something along those lines?
I think this would at least help me see who would be more or less the more unpredictable one for the fight, and possibly the winner due to it...
Surfer has done basically anything you can think of from creating clones of himself, black holes, worm holes, becoming intangible, telepath, teleporting, going back in time, turning into snow, snatching people essence out of their bodies, and the list goes on. I really can't see Thor standing up to a CISLESS Surfer but some people are giving decent arguments. A black hole to the brain should kill Thor and since Surfer is much faster, he should be able to get the first, second, and third attack off to Thor 1 attack.
Originally posted by carver9
A black hole to the brain should kill
Thor
I love it when people say SS can make a black hole in someone's head.
Originally posted by carver9and since Surfer is much faster, he should be able to get the first, second, and third attack off to Thor 1 attack.
This coming from the same guy who never thinks Superman's HUGE speed advantage over the Hulk would do anything. You change your arguments depending on which character you like better
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I love it when people say SS can make a black hole in someone's head.This coming from the same guy who never thinks Superman's HUGE speed advantage over the Hulk would do anything. You change your arguments depending on which character you like better
Show me where I said Superman wouldn't get the first, second, or third hit on Hulk.
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
This coming from the same guy who never thinks Superman's HUGE speed advantage over the Hulk would do anything. You change your arguments depending on which character you like better
In Carver's defense, he never said Superman wouldn't be able to get off multiple hits on Hulk before Hulk lands anything. In-fact, he says that all the time.
Spoiler:
It's still wrong however. Because it means somehow Hulk is fast enough to get a hit off period.
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I love it when people say SS can make a black hole in someone's head.
I used to think that was unreasonable, but I've lately been reconsidering. We know he can make black holes. We know he's considered making them in someone's eyes before. He thus has demonstrated both the ability and imagination. CIS-off, I don't see why he wouldn't. The only question is whether or not he has the precision, since he's only used black holes on panel as a big area of effect.
So, it's not certain, but it's not absurd, imo.
THREAD: Surfer. They've both got a nigh-immeasurable arsenal of esoterics as well as resistances to esoterics. But as equal as they are, Surfer has a ridiculous speed advantage.
Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I used to think that was unreasonable, but I've lately been reconsidering. We know he can make black holes. We know he's considered making them in someone's eyes before. He thus has demonstrated both the ability and imagination. CIS-off, I don't see why he wouldn't. The only question is whether or not he has the precision, since he's only used black holes on panel as a big area of effect.So, it's not certain, but it's not absurd, imo.
If it was someone with normal "human" durability, then I would agree, he COULD do it, assuming he has the precision. But I highly doubt that, even assuming he has that level of precision, that he could do it to someone with Thor's durability. AND, even assuming he has the precision and power to make a black hole inside someone with Thor's durability....You also have to assume Thor isn't moving the entire time SS is doing that to him.
Because I'm assuming he's making the black hole in the SPACE Thor's head is currently occupying in that time (as Black Holes are holes in SPACE ITSELF, not in someone's actual head), so if Thor moves, the black hole still forms in the previous position his head was occupying when SS started forming the black hole.
There is no evidence at all that the SS could overcome all of those variables to do that.
Originally posted by carver9
Show me where I said Superman wouldn't get the first, second, or third hit on Hulk.
The combat speed gap between Superman and the Hulk is almost infinitely worse than it is between SS and Thor.
I recall you claiming WBH could thunderclap Superman as soon as a fight started, and I said the Hulk wouldn't even have time to raise his arms before Superman punched him a ridiculous number of times and you disagreed. In fact, in many DC vs Marvel fights, you have ignored, or flat out denied that the superior speed of the DC character would come into play. I'm not going to show you where you said, because I have better things to do than to go through all your old posts, but I will keep an eye out for when you do it again (because I'm sure you will) and I'll point this conversation out when you do....But regardless, that's off topic anyway.
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
If it was someone with normal "human" durability, then I would agree, he COULD do it, assuming he has the precision. But I highly doubt that, even assuming he has that level of precision, that he could do it to someone with Thor's durability. AND, even assuming he has the precision and power to make a black hole inside someone with Thor's durability....You also have to assume Thor isn't moving the entire time SS is doing that to him.Because I'm assuming he's making the black hole in the SPACE Thor's head is currently occupying in that time (as Black Holes are holes in SPACE ITSELF, not in someone's actual head), so if Thor moves, the black hole still forms in the previous position his head was occupying when SS started forming the black hole.
There is no evidence at all that the SS could overcome all of those variables to do that.
Durability doesn't matter against a singularity since the gravitational forces at the event horizon are literally infinite. However when you have someone like Thor who has done a lot of weird stuff that defies the laws of physics and affected reality warpers (for example he recently reached into the field created by the Unbinding Stone of Oshemar(sp?) and shut it off despite the fact that it was destroying reality), Thor could probably defend himself.
I agree that Thor has enough hax to compete with Surfer's exotic powers, but I give the nod to Surfer mainly because of his speed, also the fact that he can time travel at will where Thor lost that ability a long time ago.
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
If it was someone with normal "human" durability, then I would agree, he COULD do it, assuming he has the precision. But I highly doubt that, even assuming he has that level of precision, that he could do it to someone with Thor's durability. AND, even assuming he has the precision and power to make a black hole inside someone with Thor's durability....You also have to assume Thor isn't moving the entire time SS is doing that to him.
What does durability has to do with it? You see [PHYSICS PHYSICS PHYSICS], therefore its clear that Surfer is somehow using his own power cosmic as a substitute for mass for the singularity, not the material of whatever happens to be there. He does not, in other words, need to use Thor's material to make it. Thus, creating the singularity in any free space in Thor's brain (say, the space between molecules) would not require physically harming Thor in any way. Once created, it could be expanded to the extent of Surfer's power, which most people assume is capable of harming Thor.
Maybe you think Thor's brain is so durable that it will not be impaired by having a black hole expanded inside of it, but creating the thing in the first place should not be hampered by any level of durability.
As for what Thor will be doing at the time, this is where Surfer's
speed advantage comes in handy.
ABOUT THE POINT IN SPACE ARGUMENT:
Well, seeing as Surfer's black holes are not created the conventional way using lots of mass (see page 1 of PHYSICS PHYSICS PHYSICS), but an unconventional ways using PC, it may be assumed that the initial singularity will have virtually no mass to begin with. If so, it will likely be drawn to whatever masses are nearest to it by the various laws of attraction. It is not inconceivable that, indeed, it would move with Thor, should Thor have time to move.
Granted, I'm kind of cape-towning, since the mechanisms by which Surfer does anything he does are poorly understood.
Originally posted by Dream Stuff
What does durability has to do with it? You see [PHYSICS PHYSICS PHYSICS], therefore its clear that Surfer is somehow using his own power cosmic as a substitute for mass for the singularity, not the material of whatever happens to be there. He doesn not, in other words, need to use Thor's material to make it. Thus, creating the singularity in any free space in Thor's brain (say, the space between molecules) would not require physically harming Thor in any way. Once created, it could be expanded to the extent of Surfer's power, which most people assume is capable of harming Thor.Maybe you think Thor's brain is so durable that it will not be impaired by having a black hole expanded inside of it, but creating the thing in the first place should not be hampered by any level of durability.
Because I'm assuming he's making the black hole in the SPACE Thor's head is currently occupying in that time (as Black Holes are holes in SPACE ITSELF, not in someone's actual head), so if Thor moves, the black hole still forms in the previous position his head was occupying when SS started forming the black hole.
As for what Thor will be doing at the time, this is where Surfer's speed advantage comes in handy.
Physics in comics books rarely makes sense. My point isn't about Thor's brain itself. Look at what Magneto's shields have blocked in the past. I'm not really sure how Thor's "durability" works, but I've seen Superman's described in the past as a sort of forcefield that surrounds his body. I highly doubt someone could create a black hole through that forcefield that surrounds Superman's body. Can I prove that? No. My point is simply that no one who says the SS can make it there, can prove that he could either, so it's really a ridiculous claim to make.
Adding to my above point, a GL's durability also has to do with a "forcefield" around their body (obviously). These "shields" can block telepathy inside the field (though not always), and magical affects from doing anything to the GL's human (or alien whatever) body INSIDE the shield. So the "durability" does have a lot to do with it, assuming Thor's works the same way. Maybe someone who knows Thor better than me could expand on how his durability works.
Originally posted by Endless MikeI agree that Thor has enough hax to compete with Surfer's exotic powers, but I give the nod to Surfer mainly because of his speed, also the fact that he can time travel at will where Thor lost that ability a long time ago.
Fair enough. The speed is a huge factor here, I'll agree with that.
I'd say Surfer, mainly because with CIS off for both it'd be easier for Surfer to simply separate Thor from Mjolnir or render him unable to wield it by restraining/encasing Thor's hands. Sure, Thor could still mentally command Mjolnir's movements remotely, but a big part of his offense would be neutered.