Originally posted by Dream StuffIt usually doesn't happen to this big of a disparity in power levels. Michael was hurt by power not even on the same planet as he was.
Name a few characters in comics who has never been hurt by someone or something weaker than them.
Originally posted by cdtmSandolphon used the weapon. It's like saying the swordsman didn't stab him the sword did. So many excuses.
The angel didn't hurt him. His weapon did, and from behind.Obviously, given the track record of angelic weapons, they're simply that powerful. As you'd expect, from those that instill god like power in tarot cards.
I think they are powerful but nowhere near as powerful as Michael. He could solo them but he held back and isn't invulnerable. That's the point.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It usually doesn't happen to this big of a disparity in power levels.
Sure it does. Hulk got koed by Cap. Surfer got koed by a thrown brick. We dismiss those because we've seen the characters easily take much more. FRom here, my argument can assume either (or a dialectic) of two logical forms:
1) Michael has obviously taken more than an average angel with a spear. His other showings have to count too. He has literally tanked bigger attacks in his sleep.
2) Either Sandolphon or his spear are extremely powerful. Not as powerful as Michael, but powerful enough to realistically hurt someone on his tier under the right circumstances.
We see this all the time in comics too, someone like Cap taking down asignificantly stronger and more durable foe by exploiting and opening with his sheild. Of course, this would mean [Sandy + spear] is extremely powerful in his own right. He only has three showings, really: stabbing Michael (extremely impressive), reality-warping Michael's power into a pocket universe that lasts hidden for billions of years while holding Michael captive (quite impressive), and being backstabbed by Uriel (somewhat unimpressive). Overall, Sandy is a Beast and I don't think a lot of comic book characters would want to turn their back to him with a spear.
Anyway I look at it, "Michael isn't that durable," seems like the least likely explanation. I favor the idea that Sandy is more powerful than we gave him credit for AND this is still just a low showing for MIchael, who we know has better durability from his other fights.
ALSO: sweet sig.
Oh, and because I haven't actually addressed the topic yet:
I think SoK's bullets could hurt Michael, but not every bullet his fired was a kill-shot. If he, say, take off Michael's arm with his first shot, he wont get a second one before Michael erases him from existence. Obviously if Michael shoots first, it's over.
I take Michael nearly every time.
Originally posted by Dream StuffThe difference is Michael's appearances aren't as numerous as either the Surfer or Hulk. Hulk's power levels vary with anger and from what I have been told Surfer pretended to be ko'd by the brick.
Sure it does. Hulk got koed by Cap. Surfer got koed by a thrown brick. We dismiss those because we've seen the characters easily take much more. FRom here, my argument can assume either (or a dialectic) of two logical forms:1) Michael has obviously taken more than an average angel with a spear. His other showings have to count too. He has literally tanked bigger attacks in his sleep.
2) Either Sandolphon or his spear are extremely powerful. Not as powerful as Michael, but powerful enough to realistically hurt someone on his tier under the right circumstances.
We see this all the time in comics too, someone like Cap taking down asignificantly stronger and more durable foe by exploiting and opening with his sheild. Of course, this would mean [Sandy + spear] is extremely powerful in his own right. He only has three showings, really: stabbing Michael (extremely impressive), reality-warping Michael's power into a pocket universe that lasts hidden for billions of years while holding Michael captive (quite impressive), and being backstabbed by Uriel (somewhat unimpressive). Overall, Sandy is a Beast and I don't think a lot of comic book characters would want to turn their back to him with a spear.
Anyway I look at it, "Michael isn't that durable," seems like the least likely explanation. I favor the idea that [B]Sandy is more powerful than we gave him credit for AND this is still just a low showing for MIchael
, who we know has better durability from his other fights.ALSO: sweet sig. [/B]
A high ranking angel showed he had the power through his weapon to defeat him. Michael was never portrayed as invulnerable. Just because there was an explosion that doesn't override the other showing where he was defeated. You can't discount while and accept the other. Comics are inconsistent the only fair way is to accept them all.
Originally posted by Dream StuffEvery shot was a kill shot unless it was against an undead opponent. Michael isn't undead therefore it will kill him.
Oh, and because I haven't actually addressed the topic yet:I think SoK's bullets could hurt Michael, but not every bullet his fired was a kill-shot. If he, say, take off Michael's arm with his first shot, he wont get a second one before Michael erases him from existence. Obviously if Michael shoots first, it's over.
I take Michael nearly every time.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Comics are inconsistent the only fair way is to accept them all.
Bold choice. most people seem to think that the fair approach is to throw out showings that are either so low or so high as to be considered incongruous. People usually try to minimize paradoxes. As it is, you could make a claim about Michael's durability that is simultaneously true and false, since the ostensible* gap between his high and low feats is unambiguously wide. But if you're comfortable with nonsense, to each his own, I guess, but I'm saving this quote of your in case it ever seems relevant again in the future.
*Obviously Michael isn't literally invulnerable (no character in comics is), so the only question is how much it takes to hurt him. Admitting that [Sandy+spear] hits that hard doesn't change the fact that SoK never shot anyone with Michael's proven durability.
Every shot was a kill shot unless it was against an undead opponent. Michael isn't undead therefore it will kill him.
Quan, I think some part of you knew this may not be true when you typed it. Some part of you thought, "I don't remember every single person SoK ever shot during the whole series, so maybe I shouldn't state this as fact," and did it anyway.
SoK never misses, but on panel evidence has him shotting human's limbs off who then try to surrender or crawl away.
Originally posted by Dream StuffMichael didn't have any proven durability. It was up there but Sandy's spear wasn't on the same planet in terms of power so we know for afact far less power than what he is capable of can beat him. His wings also sap his strength.
Bold choice. most people seem to think that the fair approach is to throw out showings that are either so low or so high as to be considered incongruous. People usually try to minimize paradoxes. As it is, you could make a claim about Michael's durability that is simultaneously true and false, since the ostensible* gap between his high and low feats is unambiguously wide. But if you're comfortable with nonsense, to each his own, I guess, but I'm saving this quote of your in case it ever seems relevant again in the future.*Obviously Michael isn't literally invulnerable (no character in comics is), so the only question is how much it takes to hurt him. Admitting that [Sandy+spear] hits that hard doesn't change the fact that SoK never shot anyone with Michael's proven durability.
Quan, I think some part of you knew this may not be true when you typed it. Some part of you thought, "I don't remember every single person SoK ever shot during the whole series, so maybe I shouldn't state this as fact," and did it anyway.
SoK never misses, but on panel evidence has him shotting human's limbs off who then try to surrender or crawl away.
I haven't read the Preacher for years so it's true I may be not remembering someone surviving as limbs were shot off. I still believe off memory the only one to survive was Cassidy due to him being undead.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael didn't have any proven durability.
Except for his three durability showings, which we've discussed. Forget?
It was up there but Sandy's spear wasn't on the same planet in terms of power
Sandy's spear has one feat: hurting Michael. Where do you get off guessing how powerful it was?
His wings also sap his strength.
This again. This claim isn't supported by anything but one taunt that you take too literally and series of extremely illogical leaps. There is no on panel evidence that and angel's wings are either a weak spot or the repository of most of their power.
I may be not remembering someone surviving as limbs were shot off.
http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s446/DreamStuffshare/other/soklive.jpg
Originally posted by Dream StuffThat just shows he's durable not invulnerable. Like I said comics are inconsistent but we've seen his wings damaged and Lucifer kill him despite being far weaker since the supreme being left creation.
Except for his three durability showings, which we've discussed. Forget?
Based off the fact that Michael could have beaten them all with a gesture. The spear was nowhere near his level of power. I don't have to determine it's level of power to rationally know based off the evidence that it paled in comparison to the power Michael wielded.
Sandy's spear has one feat: hurting Michael. Where do you get off guessing how powerful it was? [/B]
The statement was very clear. You can choose to ignore it if you want to. I won't.This again. This claim isn't supported by anything but one taunt that you take too literally and series of extremely illogical leaps. There is no on panel evidence that and angel's wings are either a weak spot or the repository of most of their power. [/B]
That doesn't mean those shots weren't fatal that just means the man didn't instantly die not that he wouldn't have died.
http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s446/DreamStuffshare/other/soklive.jpg [/B]
Originally posted by quanchi112
t we've seen his wings damaged and Lucifer kill him despite being far weaker since the supreme being left creation.
His wings were only damaged from the trip to Yggdrasil. That's not low showing at all. That he was able to fight at all after that is a durability feat of its own. As to Lucifer being weakened by Yahweh's absence: A) that could apply to Michael too B)it's not long after Yahweh's absence as no one had noticed that Lucifer was weakened yet C) Lucifer clearly got an amp from Fenris' blood, as he went from being completely unconcious to wide-awake and fighting hard as soon as he was mind-controlled.
Based off the fact that Michael could have beaten them all with a gesture. The spear was nowhere near his level of power.
Can not a man with a gun defeat a small child with a knife with the gesture of pulling the trigger? Of course, this says nothing about the power of the gun or knife, as either would kill a man, given the right opportunity.
We know that Sandy could have been taken out by Michael along with a bunch of nobodies. And we know he didn't want to fight toe-to-toe with Lucifer. But just because he isn't powerful enough to win a fair fight doesn't mean he's not powerful enough to hurt either of them (and, by extension, any number of comparable characters) given the right opportunity.
The statement was very clear. You can choose to ignore it if you want to. I won't.
I don't ignore it, or need to. It doesn't mean much.
That doesn't mean those shots weren't fatal that just means the man didn't instantly die not that he wouldn't have died.
The guy was alive and coherent. SoK clearly fired a second shot to finish him off. If you want to claim that he would have still died sometime (an hour? a day? a week?) in the future from the wound, the burden of proof is on you, because he looks to be hanging in there.
Originally posted by Dream StuffI never said it was. But another trip inside creation which could weaken him once again further proving the guy isn't invulnerable. Lucifer was weakened when he took on the Titans prior to this so yes he was already weakened. Michael held back while Lucifer did not. Michael's vulnerable body was defeated once again.
His wings were only damaged from the trip to Yggdrasil. That's not low showing at all. That he was able to fight at all after that is a durability feat of its own. As to Lucifer being weakened by Yahweh's absence: A) that could apply to Michael too B)it's not long after Yahweh's absence as no one had noticed that Lucifer was weakened yet C) Lucifer clearly got an amp from Fenris' blood, as he went from being completely unconcious to wide-awake and fighting hard as soon as he was mind-controlled.
Angels throughout the series were able to be killed by nonangelic beings. The point is an angelic weapon far less than the power of Michael can defeat him let alone a gun created to kill anyone in the Preacherverse save the supreme being while in his place/seat of power.
Can not a man with a gun defeat a small child with a knife with the gesture of pulling the trigger? Of course, this says nothing about the power of the gun or knife, as either would kill a man, given the right opportunity.
[/B]
Yes, we do know that but we also know Michael isn't beyond the angels nowhere near him in power.
We know that Sandy could have been taken out by Michael along with a bunch of nobodies. And we know he didn't want to fight toe-to-toe with Lucifer. But just because he isn't powerful enough to win a fair fight doesn't mean he's not powerful enough to hurt either of them (and, by extension, any number of comparable characters) given the right opportunity. [/B]
I think both Lucifer or Michael would destroy Sandy in a fair one on one fight but that Sandy's weapon can still hurt Michael given the chance.
You're ignoring it.I don't ignore it, or need to. It doesn't mean much. [/B]
Being alive and coherent doesn't mean you will survive the shot. The point was very clear every shot is fatal. Nowhere did it ever say instantaneous death.
The guy was alive and coherent. SoK clearly fired a second shot to finish him off. If you want to claim that he would have still died sometime (an hour? a day? a week?) in the future from the wound, the burden of proof is on you, because he looks to be hanging in there. [/B]
I don't have to prove anything you have to prove he would have survived. I guess having your arm shot off you seem to believe that you'd survive. The statements back me not you.
Skipping most of this post so I don't have to repeat myself.
Originally posted by quanchi112
But another trip inside creation which could weaken him once again further proving the guy isn't invulnerable.
I don't understand this sentence.
Lucifer was weakened when he took on the Titans
Presumably this is so, but where was it explicitly stated?
Being alive and coherent doesn't mean you will survive the shot. The point was very clear every shot is fatal. Nowhere did it ever say instantaneous death.
You're right about one thing: I have no proof that he would have survived. All I can prove is that he had survived so far and SoK, for whatever reason, thought it worthwhile to fire a second shot.
All you can prove is... nothing. All you have to set against my argument is faith.
I guess having your arm shot off you seem to believe that you'd survive.
My uncle Carl got his arm blown off the Gulf War. He seems fine 20 years later, but hey, I'm sure that injury is just taking its time.
Originally posted by Dream StuffThat Lucifer was already weaker because the Presence left around the time he fought the Titans so he'd be even weaker since he and Michael fought later on.
Skipping most of this post so I don't have to repeat myself.I don't understand this sentence.
Presumably this is so, but where was it explicitly stated?
You're right about one thing: I have no proof that he would have survived. All I can prove is that he had survived so far and SoK, for whatever reason, thought it worthwhile to fire a second shot.
All you can prove is... nothing. All you have to set against my argument is faith.
My uncle Carl got his arm blown off the Gulf War. He seems fine 20 years later, but hey, I'm sure that injury is just taking its time.
I have a direct statement made twice about his gunfire. Every shot is fatal save against the undead.
You can survive miraculous things like 6 bullets and then one shot might kill you. Or a fall might kill you whereas the same fall might concuss someone else.
My point is direct statements about his gunfire were meant to be taken literally since no one survived save the undead.
Thanks.
If you'd be game this might make for an interesting battlezone. Both have a handful of appearances. Just Michael's Lucifer appearances (since I think these are in their own separate reality outside the dcu) versus Saint of Killer's Preacher appearances.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That Lucifer was already weaker because the Presence left around the time he fought the Titans so he'd be even weaker since he and Michael fought later on.
So just to be clear, it was not explicitly stated. SO my statement, that if he was weaker it was not enough that anyone had noticed, holds up? Good.
I have a direct statement made twice about his gunfire. Every shot is fatal save against the undead. [/B]
Feats separate the truth from heresay and lore. I could say every punch I throw is fatal, but if I go around shooting everyone I punch so they die anyway, you probably shouldn't believe me.
If you'd be game this might make for an interesting battlezone.
Sure, it's interesting, but didn't you already want to challenge me to a battlezone for Lucifer vs. Thanos?
Originally posted by Dream StuffJust to be clear it was clearly stated. Good.
So just to be clear, it was not explicitly stated. SO my statement, that if he was weaker it was not enough that anyone had noticed, holds up? Good.
If you want to ignore words, their meanings, and the writer's straight to the point portrayal here go right ahead. You ignore what you don't like. I guess someone's arm being blown off means if they just take a breather they will be fine.Feats separate the truth from heresay and lore. I could say every punch I throw is fatal, but if I go around shooting everyone I punch so they die anyway, you probably shouldn't believe me.[/B]
Sometime in the future definitely but as it stands now 2 of my 4 battlezones have seen me represent Thanos so I'd like to represent someone else in the meantime.
Sure, it's interesting, but didn't you already want to challenge me to a battlezone for Lucifer vs. Thanos? [/B]
