Originally posted by Master_GalenThe thing is, Marek's clone was flash trained with his memories, while Sidious directly transferred his essence into his clones. That makes a world of difference to me.
DE Sidious's clone body feats are counted with Sidious's feats, I see no reason why Starkiller's should be seperated from Galen Marek's.
Originally posted by Arhael
Why it matters? Did clone do anything original couldn't? Did he surpass original in anything? The only thing I am aware of that stands out is that he beat Vader but so did original one.
The clone had better TK feats. But didn't show much in Sabers. Except stalemating Vader. Whilst the Original beat Vader and just had better Saber showings and statements.
I have a friend who worked on both projects and he said don't expect another TFU game for awhile because they are out of material. Why? Luke comes into the picture and you can't exactly have the son of the Chosen One alongside a new insanely powerful Jedi Knight.
Reason why Marek had trouble beating Vader in the 2nd one is due to the 2 lightsabers. The Jar'Kai fighting technique is far more difficult to master, especially while employing Juyo. Although defending against 2 lightsabers seems impossible, it can be done. Darth Power has it perfectly written.
Originally posted by Arhael
What actual TK feats clone showed that it compares to moving star destroyer, pulling Vader's lightsaber away, lifting him up and at the same time throwing objects at him?
Literally controlling a Frigate under his own power. Walking through it's reactor core, without being touched, and finally exploding the Frigate into a million pieces (and surviving that!)
Specifically, this:
Originally posted by Gideon.
'I’ve been flipping through Starkiller-related media for the past few days and there are a few feats that are extraordinary even in the grand scheme of Jedi and Sith.For example, during the Battle of Kamino, he assumes command of the mortally injured Nebulon-B frigate Salvation, intending to use it as a missile in a last ditch attempt to pierce the Imperial blockade and energy shields that surround the planet. This leads him to climb out onto the outer hull of the ship, conjuring a Force shields to protect him from the perils of atmospheric reentry while simultaneously holding, maintaining, and maneuvering the 300-meter warship:
[quote] The Force Unleashed II
He found a maintenance ladder leading to an air lock and leapt up it in two bounds, blowing the inner hatch as he came. He could feel a wild drumming from the far side of the outer door. The ship was moving so fast now that unexposed flesh wouldn't last a microsecond. He would have to rely on a Force shield to keep him safe. A single lapse in concentration would be the end of him.
The Force Unleashed IIThis was where it got difficult. He needed to maintain the Force shield against the sort of heat he might find in the outer layers of a star. He also had to keep in mind the target ahead-a target he couldn't see through the plasma, but had to hit square-on or else the planetary shield generators wouldn't fail. No matter what happened, he had to fly straight.
The Force Unleashed IIHe raised his hands and spread his fingers wide. His eyes closed tightly against the fiery brightness of the plasma. With each bucking and shaking of the ship beneath him, he encouraged himself to ride with it instead of fighting it. He was part of the ship, not a passenger. He was the ship, not a reckless pilot guiding it to destruction.
In the same way that he could feel his fingers and roes, his mind seeped outward into the metal and plastoid of the frigate, until every joint and weld, every porthole and deck became part of his sense of being. There was no line anymore between Starkiller and the Salvation. They were one and the same being, from the perspective of the Force.
He raised his right arm, and the ship followed the movement, listing slowly and heavily to starboard. Some of the headlong shuddering faded, as though it were grateful to have someone at the helm again. Even the wind's shrieking seemed to ebb.
^ Simultaneously, he creates a Force shield that protects him from heat comparable to a star, uses the Force to perceive a target he cannot see, and uses the Force to telekinetically hold and guide the frigate—while, of course, rooting himself in place so as to avoid being ripped off the ship.
The Force Unleashed IIThe frigate slammed into the clouds with a rearing sound. At that speed, individual droplets of water hit like thermal detonators.
^ He must absorb the damage of raindrops hitting with force comparable to thermal detonators.
The Force Unleashed IIWith his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him-and blew it into a billion pieces.
^ When he pierces the cloud layer, Starkiller sees that Vader is standing between him and the shield generator he'd targeted—with Juno. Frantic and "with just seconds" remaining before the Salvation's fore section strikes, Starkiller uses the Force to obliterate it before collision. Further corroboration from Juno's perspective:
The Force Unleashed IIThe ship was almost upon them when the figure brought his hands down in a fierce, pounding motion, and the last solid fragment of the Salivation exploded into fiery pieces.
Juno coughed and wished she could wipe her eyes clear of ash. Her ship had blown itself practically to atoms; she had seen it happen, right in front of her. There was no chance at all that Starkiller could have survived. He had been riding right on top of it.
Excuse the lack of page citations, my copy of the book is a digital copy on notepad. As for the greater argument, I’m not necessarily arguing that he could beat Luke, but Starkiller is definitely one of the most powerful Force adepts in the mythos.[/quote]
And remember Arheal, this is the guy who was no match for Sidious and struggled against Vader. Still think C'baoth is more powerful than Palpatine? 😉
Originally posted by Nephthys
And remember Arheal, this is the guy who was no match for Sidious and struggled against Vader. Still think C'baoth is more powerful than Palpatine? 😉
It was kind of silly though him stalemating Vader after those crazy ass feats.
He must be crap in Sabers (as of TFUII). That's the only explanation.
I don't recall him having any notable Saber feats or descriptions of his style being particularly good in TFUII.
Originally posted by ares834
Lucas then contradicts this statement with character like Dooku and Grievous.
Just because Dooku was capable at an old age doesn't mean Ben would be too.
George Foreman was boxing in his old age. Doesn't mean any boxer can.
So that's not necessarily a contradiction at all.
Grievous was 100% Cyborg, so they could construct an entire mechanical body for him making it as fast and agile as they wanted.
Originally posted by ares834
Edit: Not to mention he also places Vader at 80% of Palps.
Not talking about overall power. Just Saber ability.
But even in the Force his feats don't come close to Galen's.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just because Dooku was capable at an old age doesn't mean Ben would be too.George Foreman was boxing in his old age. Doesn't mean any boxer can.
So that's not necessarily a contradiction at all.
Grievous was 100% Cyborg, so they could construct an entire mechanical body for him making it as fast and agile as they wanted.
It is a contradiction. Lucas was stating that the reason Kenobi's skills weren't up to par was because he was old. It's age that prevented him from being up to skill hence referring to him as an "old man". The notion being here, old men aren't energetic duelists. Similarly, with Vader, in this case it being because he was part machine, yet with Greivous we see this isn't the case.
Not that it matters. Lucas doesn't say they weren't skilled combatants but rather that they aren't as energetic.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, just because Vader doesn't do a bunch of back flips, or leaps all over the place like Ventress or Yoda doesn't mean that his defenses and saber strikes are not fast and sufficient.
Firstly it's not my argument. It's Lucas's. It is a crap argument. I hated it when I heard him say that. But he still said it and that can't be changed (unless he specifically takes it back).
Secondly whether it's true or not we still need Saber feats from Vader that put him in league with say ROTS Obi-Wan. I don't think anyone would put him above that level (in Sabers that is).
Originally posted by Nephthys
That would be my thinking. A clone is a clone after all. Logically they should be the same, Force-wise. I just don't see the point in seperating them other than that they might technically not have done the feats that the other has. As a clone, that doesn't matter imo.And if he's not a clone, even better.
Was it ever stated as a fact that he was a clone? Based on anything other then just Vaders say so that is.
Even if he is just a clone though I don't see why they wouldn't count. What I got from reading the books and playing the games Starkiller had a flash back to this quote "We are not limited by the force, The force is limited by us by our minds" or at least something similar. So it was my understanding that in TFUII that because of his "memory loss" and thanks to his flashbacks it was easier for him to accept and understand that his only limitation was the one he set for himself. Kind of like the matrix in a way.