Eninn's Islam Thread

Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, it is forced on so many people. In fact almost every religious parent enforces it on his children. And even, if choice is given, the consequences alone are enough to decline that choice.
And what about sharia law?

What are you talking about?

Parents bring up their children with the morals they believe in. But when their children are adults it's up to them what they believe in.

I have 2 cousins who don't believe in Religion. No one can force them to believe otherwise.

And what about Sharia law??

Originally posted by Arhael
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afghan-womans-public-execution-slammed-163155172.html

In short a woman killed for adultery. This example points out at cruelty and atrocity committed on religious ground as well as inequality between men and women as only woman was punished.

What complete freedom you talk about, I have no idea.

Your talking about Afghanistan? What that's supposed to be a good representation of Islam as a Religion now? Please. At least find educated Muslims to give examples of!

Originally posted by TheBigManRevo
Mary Did not marry it Exactly actually she wore a Simplified Version because Jews at thse times Were Worse than Muslims in these stuff actually and it was the fashion of that time

Jewish women without the head cover had their hair shaved as a punishment.
Women who covered their faces were considered to be prostitutes (at least in Biblical times).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No that verse was never abrogated.

Gosh Islam haters jump at the chance to abrogate anything that sounds good in the Quran.

Either provide clear proof that verse was abrogated or stop saying that.

You can't just read things regarding one situation yourself and then come to a conclusion. Interpreting Islamic sources is a vast science.

Actually it was Sheik Yusuf Al-Quaradawi who quoted that. Have you heard of him? He's likely the most knowledagable Muslim Scholar alive today who has achieved marks at the Al-Azhr University that no one has for centuries.

So please don't talk to me about embarrasing myself mis quoting the situation around a verse. Because that seems to be all your doing.

Well I told you who I'm quoting, so when you show me your better educated in Islam than it's most prominent scholars, then you can continue laughing.

What are you talking about?

It's irrelevant what Al Qaradawi quoted. I asked you to read a hadith which speaks of the circumstances of this revelation and what it actually means. Al Qaradawi is irrelevant because he's neither al Bukhari, nor Imam Muslim, nor Abu Dawud, nor Al Tabari nor bin Kathir...everything he knows came from those people. If you don't understand any of the Qur'an, the best bet is to read the tafsirs.

The problem with Muslims and their apologetics is that they simply do not like what Al Tabari or bin Kathir wrote about the Qur'an in the light of westerners being repulsed by it, so they scrap the barrel from modern ''scholars'' just to keep up with the taqqiya.
Qaradawi is a repulsive man in any case, as are his ideas.

You can't go around picking and choosing what you like to please the westerners. Keep it consistent. And read the circumstances of the revelation of that verse.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The problem with Muslims and their apologetics is that they simply do not like what Al Tabari or bin Kathir wrote about the Qur'an in the light of westerners being repulsed by it, so they scrap the barrel from modern ''scholars'' just to keep up with the taqqiya.

OH MY GOD . . . they're just like every religion in the world.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
No it isn't. Allah is Mo's imaginary friend.

Incorrect, if Allah is imaginary, who gave Mohammad the sexual-prowess of 70 men?

Originally posted by Robtard
Incorrect, if Allah is imaginary, who gave Mohammad the sexual-prowess of 70 men?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What are you talking about?

It's irrelevant what Al Qaradawi quoted. I asked you to read a hadith which speaks of the circumstances of this revelation and what it actually means. Al Qaradawi is irrelevant because he's neither al Bukhari, nor Imam Muslim, nor Abu Dawud, nor Al Tabari nor bin Kathir...everything he knows came from those people. If you don't understand any of the Qur'an, the best bet is to read the tafsirs.

Though it's all well and good to read verses and their accompanying Hadiths yourself, it's best to have a Scholar who has spent his life studying Islamic sciences guiding you when attempting to interpret random verses and Hadiths.

I have noticed a lot of the anti-Islam movement tend to cling a a specific group of Verses and Hadiths that can easily be interpreted out of context, without actually going through the whole Quran and all Hadiths and studying Islam as a science. And pretty much ignoring the works of modern day scholars who have done such.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The problem with Muslims and their apologetics is that they simply do not like what Al Tabari or bin Kathir wrote about the Qur'an in the light of westerners being repulsed by it, so they scrap the barrel from modern ''scholars'' just to keep up with the taqqiya.
Qaradawi is a repulsive man in any case, as are his ideas.

Well yes Quaradawi does have some dodgy "political" views but his knowledge of the Religion is sound. Like I said his education at the Al-Azhr University is peerless. Much more so than Mr. Robert Spencer Lol.

The fact that he has political views that do seem "repulsive" to you and many in the West, actually proves he is not an apologist.

Ah yes Al-Tabari. Another source the anti-Islam movement loves to quote since he made a collection of all Hadiths whether they were sound or not, therefore making his work a very easy target to try and attack Islam on.

Ibn Kathir is a better source. Of course again his work has to be read in the context of the situation and times he's talking about.

These people are not around to answer back to your accusations. However the Muslim Scholars who have spent their lives studying the works of these people and all Islamic sources you do not want to listen to.

Tariq Ramadan for instance would tell you that 3 of Muhammad's(pbuh) companions reverted from Islam in the early days. One of them never reverted back even when Muhammad (pbuh) was "powerful".. Yet Muhammad did nothing.

As for the topic of the thread, the command for Hijab came very late in his Porphethood. Women were walking around semi-naked under his rule, yet he allowed that. And you won't be able to find me an example of where Muhammad(pbuh) scolded a woman for not wearing enough and commaned her to go dress up that instant.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You can't go around picking and choosing what you like to please the westerners. Keep it consistent. And read the circumstances of the revelation of that verse.

That's funny, because that's pretty much what the anti-Islam crew does, stick to a handful of Verses and Hadiths instead of studying the Religion as a whole.

I suggest you read Muhammad's(pbuh) Last Sermon very carefully. Since it was his final Sermon so obviously was not abrogated.

As a quick summary for you it teaches us not to hurt others, to be good to women. Reminds us that we have rights over women, but they also have rights over us.

And it clearly states that a white is not better than a black nor vice versa, and an arab not better than a non-arab nor vice versa.

Read the beauty of these teachings of equality between Men, Women, Blacks and Whites stated 1400 years ago! And bear in mind it was his Final Sermon so a good summary of the Religion.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What are you talking about?

Parents bring up their children with the morals they believe in. But when their children are adults it's up to them what they believe in.

I have 2 cousins who don't believe in Religion. No one can force them to believe otherwise.

And what about Sharia law??

Originally posted by ennin
Veil
Obligatory for every Muslim woman and not a choice

Imposition of the veil, such as prayer and fasting .... And so on
There is no freedom left in the commands of God
/quote]

Who argues that apostates need to be killed:
[quote]Originally posted by ennin

The evidence for killing an apostate is because the Prophet peace be upon him: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him," Bukhari (2794). What is meant by religion ie Islam.

And that all the Sharia laws need to be applied:

Originally posted by ennin
You are a Muslim means you need to apply all the laws of Sharia

I am happy for your cousins that they have freedom of choice. But it is fact that in a lot of families such freedom is not given, especially, when we talk about women.

I find it strange that you started arguing with me, who disagreed with ennin's views, which portray Islam in bad way.

Your talking about Afghanistan? What that's supposed to be a good representation of Islam as a Religion now? Please. At least find educated Muslims to give examples of!

Originally posted by Arhael
Tell it to ennin, who said this:

And that all the Sharia laws need to be applied:

I'm not sure what Ennin's trying to prove tbh.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am happy for your cousins that they have freedom of choice. But it is fact that in a lot of families such freedom is not given, especially, when we talk about women.

It's simply the fault of the families. I certainly would not treat my family in such a way. The asian culture in general has a history of unfair treatment to women tbh. But I think it's easier to target religion on these matters. If the family happen to be muslim they may very well claim it's in their religion to justify what they want to do.

Originally posted by Arhael
I find it strange that you started arguing with me, who disagreed with ennin's views, which portray Islam in bad way.

Hey I'll address anyone I disagree with. My first or second post on this thread was addressed to Ennin.

But now his posts just seem to be long, a bit weird and without an actual purpose. He seems to like preaching.

Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn't matter whether it is good or bad examples. The fact is that such things happen all over the world. Even in London not a single time honor killings happened because of the same seemingly trivial issues.

Believe you me honor killings have nothing to do with religion. Some asian dad just goes crazy when he catches his daughter in bed with a black guy. I promise you he's not thinking "Hmm what does my Religion say about this.." when he does that.

Originally posted by Arhael
I respect the way you believe, we need more people like that, however, people like ennin keep promoting oppression, killing and sharia law, which gives Islam bad reputation.

To be fair I don't think he's promoting oppression. He just says he believes in Sharia and that Hijab should be forced on a girl when she chooses to call herself a Muslim. Bit of a contradiction there if you just read it.

I think that's what he's saying, but I don't agree with his stance at all.

Many muslims are not very well educated in their Religion and history of their Religion at all. They will just quote random verses from the Quran kind of like lil bitchiness has been doing, instead of looking at the Faith as a whole, and studying the spiritual side and trying to understand the intention of the message.

Do not worry
Deception will do nothing

Islam in increasing on a daily basis

70000 French convert to Islam annually

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlIHcTliSuI

Wonderful truth of Islam
Always win

I am really surprised

Attention to the application of laws set by humans

As for the laws of God

Find high voices and objections

I can see clearly
You say to the Muslims

Do not apply the limits of Allah in the Holy Qur'an and the Hadith

Any person who is on the whims do not care about the words of God

But

I'll tell you
Muslims can not be just like Christians or Jews
And invent a religion interpolated
Appropriate to the whims of personal

In the end

Everyone will die and meet God face to face

What will you say?
And you know the truth!!!!!

(46) And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
(47) And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

(49) And judge, [O Muammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away – then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.
(50) Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].

The limits of God
Application and implementation
Not for discussion

229) These are the limits ordained by Allah, so do not transgress them. And whoever transgresses the limits ordained by Allah, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers, etc.).

-The problem is not the correct understanding of Islamic law

And also the misuse of Islamic law

Islam is innocent of that
The proof of this

Can not anyone to convert to Islam under duress

But

Convert to Islam willingly

Always wrong to be in the confusion between the curriculum and the application of the curriculum

Approach and the teachings of Islam is beautiful and very cool

I feel very happy when the correct application

Therefore, I find my life and function with a moderation and purity and cleanliness

Because I know a good approach to Islamic law

This is the difference between scientists and ignorant

But see those newly converted to Islam

Really will be impressed by the results

The orders of Allah and His Messenger above all.

Do not worry
Deception will do nothing

Islam in increasing on a daily basis

70000 French convert to Islam annually

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlIHcTliSuI

Wonderful truth of Islam
Always win

Originally posted by eninn
Convert to Islam willingly

Believe you me honor killings have nothing to do with religion. Some asian dad just goes crazy when he catches his daughter in bed with a black guy. I promise you he's not thinking "Hmm what does my Religion say about this.." when he does that.

It's simply the fault of the families. I certainly would not treat my family in such a way. The asian culture in general has a history of unfair treatment to women tbh. But I think it's easier to target religion on these matters. If the family happen to be muslim they may very well claim it's in their religion to justify what they want to do.

Another problem is that majority of scholars support extreme measures:

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ردة‎ riddah, literally means: "relapse/regress" but usually translates to "apostasy", or ارتداد irtidād) is commonly defined in Islam as the rejection in word or deed of one's former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy; Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim society or nation."[1] The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.[2][3][4] Several contemporary Muslim scholars, including influential Islamic reformers have rejected this, arguing for religious freedom instead.[5][3][6][7] According to Islamic law apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God, rejecting the prophets, mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, rejecting the sharia, or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery.[8]

This is just a wikipedia statement, which you could argue to be wrong. But fact stands that in majority countries, where Islam is the main religion, freewill is poorly exercised.

And don't get me wrong. I am not saying that this religion is bad. It just has its problems and flaws like all other religions.
And very unfortunately majority of people or at least scholars don't give Islam mild interpretation like you.

I bet that those 70000 are just Algerian and Moroccan immigrants that entered France. 😄

Originally posted by Arhael

And in this scenario dad gets so crazy that kills his own daughter?

Yep. But like I said I promise it's nothing to do with his religion. It's his own personal feelings that makes one do that. As disgusting as it is. But there's no way you could find me anywhere that the Quran or Islam has instructed him to do so.

Originally posted by Arhael
The problem is that Islam originates from Asia and is a direct product of their culture. Thanks to other cultures that managed to tone it down.

It originates in the Middle East. The asian culture has actually polluted the religion a lot. For instance a lot of asian muslims have their own castes and give it a religous significance. Whilst in Islam there are no catses. We were told by Muhammad(pbuh) 1400 years ago that a White is not better than a Black and Vice versa. That an arab is not better than a non-arab and vice verse.

Originally posted by Arhael
Another problem is that majority of scholars support extreme measures:

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ردة‎ riddah, literally means: "relapse/regress" but usually translates to "apostasy", or ارتداد irtidād) is commonly defined in Islam as the rejection in word or deed of one's former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy; Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim society or nation."[1] The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.[2][3][4] Several contemporary Muslim scholars, including influential Islamic reformers have rejected this, arguing for religious freedom instead.[5][3][6][7] According to Islamic law apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God, rejecting the prophets, mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, [b]rejecting the sharia, or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery.[8]

This is just a wikipedia statement, which you could argue to be wrong. But fact stands that in majority countries, where Islam is the main religion, freewill is poorly exercised.

And don't get me wrong. I am not saying that this religion is bad. It just has its problems and flaws like all other religions.
And very unfortunately majority of people or at least scholars don't give Islam mild interpretation like you. [/B]

Lol It's not my personal "mild" interpretation though. That's what I'm trying to say. It is the interpretation of Scholars that I'm following. People like Tariq Ramadan and Humza Yusuf (who are actually western scholars but have both studied under the most learned middle eastern scholars).

In fact I'd say any major Scholar would give a similar interpretation.

As for the wiki quote I'm going to suggest that it's not the majority of scholars who say that, but the majority of Imams. Anyone can be an Imam at the local mosque. That doesn't take much education at all.

But still it shows there is a problem of some influential muslims still being closed minded, extreme and uneducated in the faith they are so keen on preaching.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But still it shows there is a problem of some influential muslims still being closed minded, extreme and uneducated in the faith they are so keen on preaching.

In any case.

"Everything I tell you is a lie". - Vergere
Each of us will find our own truth, which will be truth only for us. 🙂

Originally posted by Arhael
This is just a wikipedia statement, which you could argue to be wrong. But fact stands that in majority countries, where Islam is the main religion, freewill is poorly exercised.

Yeah Islam is really making theocratic dictatorships look bad . . . wait a second.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed. And their influence went as far as establishing religious laws on entire countries with death banishment.

That's neither here or there. It's not like these countries would be democracies without the religon. They'd still be dictatorships with death banishments.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yeah Islam is really making theocratic dictatorships look bad . . . wait a second.

Lol Exactly.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case.

"Everything I tell you is a lie". - Vergere
Each of us will find our own truth, which will be truth only for us. 🙂

Well Of course 🙂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's neither here or there. It's not like these countries would be democracies without the religon. They'd still be dictatorships with death banishments.

And honestly, how else do you explain the shared tendency toward repression in these nations?

The freest Muslim nations (Turkey and Indonesia) are only as free as they are because they've embraced a path toward secularization.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
There's really no evidence to support this. It's a complete unknown how Muslim countries would be like today without centuries of Islamic influence.

And honestly, how else do you explain the shared tendency toward repression in these nations?

The freest Muslim nations (Turkey and Indonesia) are only as free as they are because they've embraced a path toward secularization.

Because there's absolutely no connection to their oppression and Islamic teachings.

And the majority of the dictators who have been in that region Saddam Hussain, President Mubarak, Colonel Gaddafi, Musharaf e.t.c e.t.c were all secular anyway. None of them were Islamists. So I'm not sure where this supposed evidence of Islam making that region oppressing dictators is coming from.

P.s. There's a well known Muslim Hadith stating: "Help your brother whether he's the Oppressor or the Oppressed.." Then someone asks "How do you help him if he's the Oppressor?" Response was "Stop him."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because there's absolutely no connection to their oppression and Islamic teachings.