Originally posted by Juntai
Not any, just Marvel has this stance as a company. The mounted facts and evidence from all sources, (2 of Marvels sites, handbooks, in issue power summary, dozens of actual scans in practice, etc )all telling the same story don't require your belief in them to be true.You can always go with the "the writers handbooks bios narration and characters are just trying to be flowery" approach to denial with Bran.
Its funny cause you're using the sites i provided the links to, twisting my evidence to your favor. And frankly Branlor Swift managed to provide far more evidence to your ambigous arguments using debatable scans.
Originally posted by VastoLord1234Untrue. Absence of evidence isn't evidence. A scan not mentioning hyperspace for ftl travel doesn't mean it wasn't done - as according to Marvel handbooks laws of ftl travel, the characters history, on panel evidence in application and descrption all say that it does involve it.
Its funny cause you're using the sites i provided the links to, twisting my evidence to your favor. And frankly Branlor Swift managed to provide far more evidence to your ambigous arguments using debatable scans.
This only really matters for definition, because he's still getting from point a to b In x time. but changes the dynamic as he's riding through bent/warped space to accomplish the task, so its not raw speed.
Originally posted by Juntai
So you have nothing then?I'm not saying Surfer can't surpass lightspeed, I'm saying when he does it he enters hyperspace, which is clearly written into his character, and clearly written into the in comic scans of it, summaries of his powers, handbook bios/marvel.com/marunapp[which while translated to unofficial appendix, is written by the official handbook people, and the official handbook guides you to it and is a sponsored site for all handbook mistakes.] And written into the laws of physics of the Marvel Universe as a whole.
All of these are corroborating to paint a very clear picture.
If they were all contradicting, we might have something to talk about.And you've got . .. I think he's just trying to be flowery?
And you're right, he's not always insta-traversing with it, but that is actually accounted for in the definition of hyperspace too.
So you've proven nothing again. Great.
Online bios trump comics then is your argument?
But that clearly doesn't happen all the time. As he's went faster than light without hyperspace. And by essentially overuling any possible case as just hyperspace and it has no laws you are directly trying to lower every single case of faster than light in favor of pumping up Superman. Every single character in comics has to have diminished capabilities so Superman can stand tall.
This isn't simply a case of you actually agreeing that he can go ftl. This is you saying he or any other character cheats to accomplish this. This is not their actual power apparently, and by you repeatedly pointing out that the laws are different you only try to reinforce that.
This is some severe bias shit that's being thrown around here. And what do you do when faced with evidence of beings going faster than light? "Nope, didn't happen, check out this bio."
But yes, I have nothing. The person actually using comics as evidence has nothing. I wonder if you realized how just showing hyperspace existing has absolutely no bearing on the issue at hand and then just resorted back to the bio argument with added "nothing" thrown in to really give your side merit. No one ever said hyperspace didn't exist. Post some more irrelevant scans.
Also yes, my entire debate the entire time has been about flowery language. You caught me. Ignore however all the evidence you posted that goes against that scan.
I like how you are still ignoring thing's going faster than light though without hyperspace and clinging like cold death to bios. You officially have one comic scan that even begins to back you up and you utterly refuse to even acknowledge anything in return. Had you not been seen as a beacon of hope I would have simply laughed at your argument and called you a hating fanboy. But I apparently can't do that because I'm not sure what the bio says on such etiquette.
Now you're trying to lump every single example under it really being hyperspace as an excuse not to address the instances because that's what your bios say. Even though only one bio says that and I don't even know what Marvunapp says even though you continue to reference it like it has merit. Do I really care? Not really. But it's interesting to note how Marvunapp has become a real heavyweight in your cause without actual postings of it.
And about that site, it has literal sections where the writers of the bios actually start guessing what the writers meant. Questions and the like. Not to mention again that it has the word "Unofficial" in its name. Which from this debate it would seem the actual Marvel comics have that word in their name.
Here's some more scans of things surpassing light without hyperspace being used.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/62547/3525600-uncanny+avengers+10.jpg
Though I know you'll try and twist that to say hyperspace even though the effect of going that fast was felt on Thor. If you even bother addressing any sort of evidence that is
Here's a good one from a bio more official than any bio you've shown. Thor is only mach 32.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52246/1603608-a_053.jpg
Surely this must be fact in comics!
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52246/1528093-thor_145.jpg
Well that's an old scan anyway
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/136540/3060229-4351529949-ThorM.jpg
Still old
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111176815/4436630-4665535544-33369.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111176815/4436631-5906630593-32732.jpg
I wonder if Gorr entered hyperspace to be flung lightyears like that and then exited right before impact?
Takes Vulcan a week to get to Shi Ar space clearly not using hyperspace
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/20037473/5.png.html
However, since actual evidence is beyond you in favor of bios, this brings about an interesting question.
What would it actually take for you to accept that hyperspace wasn't involved in a ftl feat?
And I'm not talking about "not possible, check out this unofficial bio and some Marvel wikis", I'm talking about complete theoretics since this can't exist unless Superman does it.
What would it actually take to overrule your precious bios? If you only answer one thing in my post like what I suspect you will, then please let it be this question.
Scans simply not mentioning hyperspace doesn't mean it wasn't used.
You'd need to prove a change in the dynamics, however possible, as Marvel's stance is anything faster than light, used hyperspace.
That doesn't mean automatic jump as both ideas are referenced separately but are related to hyperspace travel. So saying e.g; Vulan flew through space without distance manipulation doesn't mean anything.
Once again, you're acting as if this isn't supported just because I used bios, websites, the glossary of terms, as well as issue scans both in narration of his ability and again in function. As if one somehow lessens the other. No, it all strengthens one another because all the sources are in agreement not in contention with one another.
The only source not in agreement on the matter is a few delusional 'its just flowery writing they throw in our faces incessantly for 50 years' forum posters.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Online bios trump comics then is your argument?But that clearly doesn't happen all the time. As he's went faster than light without hyperspace. And by essentially overuling any possible case as just hyperspace and it has no laws you are directly trying to lower every single case of faster than light in favor of pumping up Superman. Every single character in comics has to have diminished capabilities so Superman can stand tall.
This isn't simply a case of you actually agreeing that he can go ftl. This is you saying he or any other character cheats to accomplish this. This is not their actual power apparently, and by you repeatedly pointing out that the laws are different you only try to reinforce that.
This is some severe bias shit that's being thrown around here. And what do you do when faced with evidence of beings going faster than light? "Nope, didn't happen, check out this bio."But yes, I have nothing. The person actually using comics as evidence has nothing. I wonder if you realized how just showing hyperspace existing has absolutely no bearing on the issue at hand and then just resorted back to the bio argument with added "nothing" thrown in to really give your side merit. No one ever said hyperspace didn't exist. Post some more irrelevant scans.
Also yes, my entire debate the entire time has been about flowery language. You caught me. Ignore however all the evidence you posted that goes against that scan.
I like how you are still ignoring thing's going faster than light though without hyperspace and clinging like cold death to bios. You officially have one comic scan that even begins to back you up and you utterly refuse to even acknowledge anything in return. Had you not been seen as a beacon of hope I would have simply laughed at your argument and called you a hating fanboy. But I apparently can't do that because I'm not sure what the bio says on such etiquette.
Now you're trying to lump every single example under it really being hyperspace as an excuse not to address the instances because that's what your bios say. Even though only one bio says that and I don't even know what Marvunapp says even though you continue to reference it like it has merit. Do I really care? Not really. But it's interesting to note how Marvunapp has become a real heavyweight in your cause without actual postings of it.
And about that site, it has literal sections where the writers of the bios actually start guessing what the writers meant. Questions and the like. Not to mention again that it has the word "Unofficial" in its name. Which from this debate it would seem the actual Marvel comics have that word in their name.Here's some more scans of things surpassing light without hyperspace being used.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/62547/3525600-uncanny+avengers+10.jpg
Though I know you'll try and twist that to say hyperspace even though the effect of going that fast was felt on Thor. If you even bother addressing any sort of evidence that isHere's a good one from a bio more official than any bio you've shown. Thor is only mach 32.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52246/1603608-a_053.jpgSurely this must be fact in comics!
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52246/1528093-thor_145.jpgWell that's an old scan anyway
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/136540/3060229-4351529949-ThorM.jpgStill old
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111176815/4436630-4665535544-33369.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111176815/4436631-5906630593-32732.jpgI wonder if Gorr entered hyperspace to be flung lightyears like that and then exited right before impact?
Takes Vulcan a week to get to Shi Ar space clearly not using hyperspace
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/20037473/5.png.htmlHowever, since actual evidence is beyond you in favor of bios, this brings about an interesting question.
What would it actually take for you to accept that hyperspace wasn't involved in a ftl feat?
And I'm not talking about "not possible, check out this unofficial bio and some Marvel wikis", I'm talking about complete theoretics since this can't exist unless Superman does it.What would it actually take to overrule your precious bios? If you only answer one thing in my post like what I suspect you will, then please let it be this question.
First in Silver Surfer #2 volume 3, Norrin claimed he could fly “near the speed of light”, then in Silver Surfer #9 he gets sucked into a black hole and is unable to escape --which requires faster than light speeds-- until Galactus helps him then in Silver Surfer #15 he uses hyperspace and later again fails to escape a black hole, then in the next issue he again says he can move at near-light speeds. In issue 31 Surfer himself says that traveling from Zenn-La to the Galactic Core will require “four cycles in hyperspace”. The two issues after that the Surfer was stated to fly at “near-light speeds”. Nearly every time he surpassed it, it was noted that he did so via hyperspace and within the confines of regular space, it was noted several times that he could move only at near-light speeds. At one point, he traveled a vast distance to the Elders of the Universe and they themselves noted that he had accomplished that feat via hyperspace.
After this large part of the next section featured him powerless in Dynamo City. But after regaining his power later, in Silver Surfer #50 Surfer flies away using hyperspace.
In Silver Surfer #62 he says he must “coax every measure of speed” from his board, but while he’s in the middle of doing that he gets attacked and pulled into a realm of the dead.
The cover of issue 111 reads that “Faster than light he flies into the inner void!", but in reality, the story says explicitly that even at his maximum speed, it would take the Surfer billions upon billions of years to fly to the other side of the universe without hyperspace and later in #114, the Watcher himself stated that the Surfer had to use wormholes to travel that distance.
Silver Surfer #121, the Surfer crashes into a planet at FTL speeds originating from hyperspace. In the issue right after that, he again uses a wormhole to traverse light years in seconds.
In Galactus the Devourer and again in Annihilation, it was shown that Surfer uses his board's hyperspace abilities for his speed[in G;tD] and that Heralds cannot move faster than light, and also use a hyperspace jump at one point [Annihilation]
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Here's a good one from a bio more official than any bio you've shown. Thor is only mach 32.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52246/1603608-a_053.jpg
Here's a scan of him doing just that.
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2413017
And while I admit bios can sometimes be inaccurate, these concepts of hyperspace exist in the bios, and in the issues. They are a part of the laws of physics within Marvel comics.
Here it is listed under Runner in the OTHOTU, upon surpassing lightspeed, he uses hyperspace, in which the speed of light is no longer a limiting factor on velocity.
Although Star Dancer can access hyperspace, she prefers to travel at sub-light speeds.
Listed under the items section, Surfer can move .99 of the speed of light, and after that he accesses warp-space, in which the speed of light is no longer a limit on velocity.
And so I re-iterate;
Scans simply not mentioning hyperspace doesn't mean it wasn't used.
You'd need to prove a change in the dynamics, however possible, as Marvel's stance is anything faster than light, used hyperspace/warps-space/sub-space.
That doesn't mean automatic jump as both ideas are referenced separately but are related to hyperspace travel.
If you can do this in a way that undoes all of Marvel's history, I'd be wildly impressed, and concede.
Though I'm sure you have them as well, I want you to know that I'm not unprepared for this discussion. So if you find the issues that undo all of Marvel's/Surfer's history, let me know.
I have volume 1-4 and Annuals on hand.
And so you don't think I'm winging it and just downloaded them for purposes of this particular discussion, I like cosmic heros and downloaded and read these back in 2012. See the dates?
I also have various other arcs that aren't in the specifically Silver Surfer folder[such as Annihilation in 3 hardbacks, volume 6, In Thy Name and Requiem in issues. And tons of other Marvel cosmic stuff digitally]
And I'd be willing to try to locate and download other obscure stuff if you can't find it in any of those.
Originally posted by Juntai
Though I'm sure you have them as well, I want you to know that I'm not unprepared for this discussion. So if you find the issues that undo all of Marvel's/Surfer's history, let me know.I have volume 1-4 and Annuals on hand.
And so you don't think I'm winging it and just downloaded them for purposes of this particular discussion, I like cosmic heros and downloaded and read these back in 2012. See the dates?
I also have various other arcs that aren't in the specifically Silver Surfer folder[such as Annihilation in 3 hardbacks, volume 6, In Thy Name and Requiem in issues. And tons of other Marvel cosmic stuff digitally]
And I'd be willing to try to locate and download other obscure stuff if you can't find it in any of those.
watch?v=OtI3ghO4jZ8
Originally posted by Juntai😂
Though I'm sure you have them as well, I want you to know that I'm not unprepared for this discussion. So if you find the issues that undo all of Marvel's/Surfer's history, let me know.I have volume 1-4 and Annuals on hand.
And so you don't think I'm winging it and just downloaded them for purposes of this particular discussion, I like cosmic heros and downloaded and read these back in 2012. See the dates?
I also have various other arcs that aren't in the specifically Silver Surfer folder[such as Annihilation in 3 hardbacks, volume 6, In Thy Name and Requiem in issues. And tons of other Marvel cosmic stuff digitally]
And I'd be willing to try to locate and download other obscure stuff if you can't find it in any of those.
Originally posted by abhilegend
And what was he doing for sixty days flying non stop? Since you know, the first black hole instantly transported him across the Universe, it should have brought him earlier than two months when we are simply disregarding everything shown in the comic.
Originally posted by Galan007
Convergence (1/2):
