Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I didn't like the influence system. Never liked the idea of having to sacrifice alignment just to say the right things to people so they open up their side-quest.
I thought it's the best dialogue system of any RPG. BioWare makes it far too easy in Mass Effect to say the right things. Dragon Age was better but you can whore people out with gifts.
It sucks to give up alignment sometimes, sure but LS/DS points came very easily IIRC.
Originally posted by Based
I thought it's the best dialogue system of any RPG. BioWare makes it far too easy in Mass Effect to say the right things. Dragon Age was better but you can whore people out with gifts.It sucks to give up alignment sometimes, sure but LS/DS points came very easily IIRC.
Originally posted by BasedIt's not that. The characters have all already decided to join you in your quest to... do... whatever (I never really got the motivations in the second game). Why are they entrusting you to lead them to... whatever it is they're personally after, when they can't even open up their backstory to you? "I trust you, total stranger, to lead me to wherever you want, put me in harm's way, and in exchange, I need you to say the right thing. Only then will I talk."
I thought it's the best dialogue system of any RPG. BioWare makes it far too easy in Mass Effect to say the right things. Dragon Age was better but you can whore people out with gifts.It sucks to give up alignment sometimes, sure but LS/DS points came very easily IIRC.
The first game made sense--the party characters were ideologically or emotionally inclined to join you. The second game just kind of had them say "whatever". They blindly join up and then demand you tickle their ego just right in order to say anything about themselves. So knowing that's what you have to do made it really annoying that it also cost you alignment points, when all you're trying to do is get them to have a f*cking conversation.
And it's a bullshit cop-out. "You draw people to you, you're a natural leader." Literally people who have no clear reason to be there, abandon what they were doing, and unless you woo them the right way, don't open up to you. If they're so hypnotized in to abandoning their master (Visas), abandoning their comrades (Mandalore), abandoning their trade (bounty hunter chick), why then can they not talk about themselves?
No, its because the Exile forms Force Bonds with everyone. Gaining more influence with people by saying things that get them to like you is simply a representation of the Force Bond getting stronger.
Hell you can get early influence with Atton just by getting into pointless fights that he feels compelled to join in with despite not actually wanting to.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I didn't like the influence system. Never liked the idea of having to sacrifice alignment just to say the right things to people so they open up their side-quest.
Agreed. The point of an rpg is to play the game how you want. By requiring you to say specific things to certain members to learn their back story and to uncover their side quests. Even worse is the fact that many of these characters back stories are highly relevant to the game and that it's impossible to max all characters influence throughout the game.
It would be fine if getting max influence wasn't required to learn their back story and get the side quests and rather allowed you to train them as Jedi. But as it is now.... It's an absolutely shit system.
Originally posted by NephthysWhat a lazy plot device to explain why characters who give no real motivation still accompany you on your dangerous, personal quest. You know what would have been better than character growth via tickle-me-Elmo? Party members who express desires inherent to real people, and who leave if they see no reason to stay. The game would have been so much fun juggling influence with alignment if party members actually left the group if you didn't stay on their good side. If Mandalore felt you weren't worth the time, if Mical or Brianna thought you were too Dark Sidey, if Visas thought you were too... something (I don't remember what she wanted--nothing, I think). That would be great at demonstrating the effects of your choices and conversations--make you appreciate the consequences while also giving the characters... actual character!
No, its because the Exile forms Force Bonds with everyone. Gaining more influence with people by saying things that get them to like you is simply a representation of the Force Bond getting stronger.Hell you can get early influence with Atton just by getting into pointless fights that he feels compelled to join in with despite not actually wanting to.
Originally posted by ares834I could (and have before) go on and on how KotOR II sucks. The boring story, the boring characters, overpowered attacks, the bazillion useless items, the choppy graphics and framerate (Xbox anyway), the quasi-cutscenes that drench the player with expository dialogue but which your player character isn't present for, giving away who the ultimate mystery bad guy is right from the beginning...
Agreed. The point of an rpg is to play the game how you want. By requiring you to say specific things to certain members to learn their back story and to uncover their side quests. Even worse is the fact that many of these characters back stories are highly relevant to the game and that it's impossible to max all characters influence throughout the game.It would be fine if getting max influence wasn't required to learn their back story and get the side quests and rather allowed you to train them as Jedi. But as it is now.... It's an absolutely shit system.
The first KotOR may be comparatively simple, with its straightforward story, relatively linear gampelay etc. But it worked. Obsidian tried to go for this mysterious, dark, "dramatic" cerebral route and IMO, it failed spectacularly.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What a lazy plot device to explain why characters who give no real motivation still accompany you on your dangerous, personal quest. You know what would have been better than character growth via tickle-me-Elmo? Party members who express desires inherent to real people, and who leave if they see no reason to stay.
I don't see how you can call it a lazy plot device when it's one of the most documented and discussed parts of the plot in the game.
I also disagree with there being no reason for them to stay or join you other than the Force Bond. Lets go down the list:
Kriea: Durrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Atton: You rescue him and help each other get off Peragus. From there you still need to work together to get off of Telos and by the time he could leave he is fully invested. Also he has reasons from his past for why he's interesting in what you do.
T3: You own the Ebon Hawk and they're a package deal. Also he's on a mission for Revan to get you.
HK-47: He decides you're his new master, is connected to the Sith through Revan and wants to follow you because you attract those shitty rip-offs who aren't nearly as handsome as he is.
Bao-Dur: Still thinks of you as his General and wants to get over the guilt of Malachor.
Brianna: She wants to bone you. Also she wants to learn to use the Force and generally to just keep an eye on you.
Visas: She's oddly subservient to you cuz you saved her life. She also explains that she finds you fascinating and doesn't want you to die.
Mical: You were going to be his Master back before the war, he's a spy for the Republic and he has an interest in the Jedi.
Mandalore: Kreia blackmails him with info about Revan.
Hanharr: Kreia blackmails him with a life debt.
Mira: She was hired by Zez-Kai Ell to secretly watch over Surik and keep Goto off her back until he could speak with her. Then she helps rescue you and joins you. Probably the one with the least reason but she is a Bounty Hunter so its not like she has a busy life to get back to or anything better to do.
GO-TO: He's hired you to help restore the galaxy and to stop the Sith. He has a vested interest in your goal.
I'd say those were desires expressed by real people. In many of the cases the reason they have for following you is directly tied into their backstory.
You could just as easily ask why Carth, Canderous, Mission or Juhani come with you. Carth has nothing to do with your mission, and he's abandoning his job as a soldier for the Republic. Canderous also has zero reasons to keep following you around except that you get into cool fights. You're not even paying him. I have no idea why Mission wasn't thrown off the ship as soon as they get to Dantooine she's 14 ****ing years old for christs sake. And Juhani just kinda comes with you because.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The game would have been so much fun juggling influence with alignment if party members actually left the group if you didn't stay on their good side. If Mandalore felt you weren't worth the time, if Mical or Brianna thought you were too Dark Sidey, if Visas thought you were too... something (I don't remember what she wanted--nothing, I think). That would be great at demonstrating the effects of your choices and conversations--make you appreciate the consequences while also giving the characters... actual character!
Yes that would have been cool.
..... 😐
Ok, I'm not that much of a douche. Unfortunately that just wasn't the story they wanted to tell. It wouldn't have made any sense with the concept of Force Bonds. And unfortunately Developers do not make games tailor made for each person. What you wanted just isn't what they made. That doesn't make it a bad game.
No, that's not what it makes it a bad game. This is:
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The boring story, the boring characters, overpowered attacks, the bazillion useless items, the choppy graphics and framerate (Xbox anyway), the quasi-cutscenes that drench the player with expository dialogue but which your player character isn't present for, giving away who the ultimate mystery bad guy is right from the beginning...
A bad game is a boring game. And KotOR II was boring. Really boring. Three characters (Visas, Mical, Brianna) have almost no personality, and barely any inflection in their voices (Visas especially). Atton is Carth x10 in his whining and mistrust. Kreia's a cryptic pseudo-sage whose shtick gets old. Mandalore is just Canderous 2.0 with the added deflation of blackmail and a hard-on for Revan (he's still badass, but by no means is he interesting). I never brought in Hanharr cuz I just can't stand Wookiees. Mira was the only semi-interesting one. G0-T0 and HK were the only ones I liked talking to. Everyone else was just a stick in the mud who demanded you be nice to them before they tell you anything pertinent--though again, why they felt so inclined to risk their lives when they can't even tell you why is beyond me. There's no mystery, there's no thrill, there's no plot I want to work toward resolving. And there's no climax. Not in the typical sense anyway. There's an ending to be sure, but no climax. The fight with Nihilus was a major letdown (Nihilus as a character was a letdown, actually). And the confrontation with Sion and Traya was just so... so... blech. I just wanted the damn game to be over by then.
The first game is simple in comparison, but the second game is just a mess. Unlikeable characters, an unbelievably boring story, and (solely gameplay here) the million different items and item crafting options really slowed the game down.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, that's not what it makes it a bad game. This is:
You not arguing with my points = I win.
Woohoo!
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
A bad game is a boring game. And KotOR II was boring. Really boring.
Subjectiiiiiiiive! (I'm singing that line)
I was enthralled by the game when I played it.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Three characters (Visas, Mical, Brianna) have almost no personality, and barely any inflection in their voices (Visas especially).
Just because they're stoic doesn't make them bad characters (although Mical is a bad character). I personally found Visas and Brianna to be really damn interesting characters.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Atton is Carth x10 in his whining and mistrust.
WTF? No, just no. Atton is only mistrustful of Kriea cuz she frickin' mindrapes him like a few hours into the game and frequently talks down to him. The dude is literally designed to be a mirror image to Carth as a soldier who stayed with Revan and the Sith.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kreia's a cryptic pseudo-sage whose shtick gets old.
Fffffffffffffffffffffff**** you.
No, but my hard-on for Kreia is well documented. I do in fact own a Kreia body pillow. That I ****. With my dick.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Mandalore is just Canderous 2.0 with the added deflation of blackmail and a hard-on for Revan (he's still badass, but by no means is he interesting).
Psst:
Spoiler:
He is Canderous.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I never brought in Hanharr cuz I just can't stand Wookiees.
Considering he's pretty much a deconstruction of a Wookiee, not a good call.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Mira was the only semi-interesting one. G0-T0 and HK were the only ones I liked talking to. Everyone else was just a stick in the mud who demanded you be nice to them before they tell you anything pertinent--though again, why they felt so inclined to risk their lives when they can't even tell you why is beyond me.
Personal shit be Personal bro.
Gotta 'spect dat.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
There's no mystery, there's no thrill, there's no plot I want to work toward resolving. And there's no climax. Not in the typical sense anyway. There's an ending to be sure, but no climax. The fight with Nihilus was a [b]major letdown (Nihilus as a character was a letdown, actually). And the confrontation with Sion and Traya was just so... so... blech. I just wanted the damn game to be over by then.[/b]
Again this is all subjective, although I do agree that Nihilus was too easy and needed to be made into a moar epic boss fight.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, that's not what it makes it a bad game. This is:A bad game is a boring game. And KotOR II was boring. Really boring. Three characters (Visas, Mical, Brianna) have almost no personality, and barely any inflection in their voices (Visas especially). Atton is Carth x10 in his whining and mistrust. Kreia's a cryptic pseudo-sage whose shtick gets old. Mandalore is just Canderous 2.0 with the added deflation of blackmail and a hard-on for Revan (he's still badass, but by no means is he interesting). I never brought in Hanharr cuz I just can't stand Wookiees. Mira was the only semi-interesting one. G0-T0 and HK were the only ones I liked talking to. Everyone else was just a stick in the mud who demanded you be nice to them before they tell you anything pertinent--though again, why they felt so inclined to risk their lives when they can't even tell you why is beyond me. There's no mystery, there's no thrill, there's no plot I want to work toward resolving. And there's no climax. Not in the typical sense anyway. There's an ending to be sure, but no climax. The fight with Nihilus was a [b]major
letdown (Nihilus as a character was a letdown, actually). And the confrontation with Sion and Traya was just so... so... blech. I just wanted the damn game to be over by then.The first game is simple in comparison, but the second game is just a mess. Unlikeable characters, an unbelievably boring story, and (solely gameplay here) the million different items and item crafting options really slowed the game down. [/B]
👆
I'm too lazy to point-by-point quote today.
Stoic=/=bad. Stoic=boring. Especially when that stoicism doesn't go away or evolve in to something else.
Atton is a whiner. A griper. A complainer. He likes to b*tch. Actually this problem is probably due more to the voice actor--he just sounds like such an annoying prick, and the character suffered for it.
The stoicism gets old in the others, and the cryptic "I'm a bad guy OR AM I REALLY? but no I guess I am" Kreia is equally annoying.
I know it's Canderous. But it's just Canderous. He was never interesting, only badass. It's the same thing all over again, but they added in blackmail and Revan worship. It deflates his badassness, and adds nothing interesting.
I wasn't talking about Wookiee personalities. I just mean Wookiees per se. They bug me. Especially in the games where their voices are just re-used Chewbacca noises.
I'll 'spect dat shit when I have a reason to care about them. Risk your life, obey every command, follow me wherever I go on my personal quest, and don't even tell me about yourself because I haven't fit your paradigm. That doesn't make any sense, and I really think it was only done that way so the developers would have an excuse to use their new-fangled Influence System. "We added more choices to the game for the sake of it--call us better than BioWare!" Actually... come to think of it, I think they did the exact same thing with Fallout: New Vegas. Bethesda established a morality system in Fallout 3, and when Obsidian took over for the next game, they added an Influence/Faction system on top of the morality scale--except they rendered the morality in New Vegas completely obsolete. It only affected the end cut scene in small ways.
Huh... f*ckin Obsidian and their miserable one-up attempts (though New Vegas is still great).
Nihilus was also very boring. He had a good premise to him. As much as I hate Magic Superpowers in Star Wars, his was subtle enough to work in the game. They just never expound on it or give us any background. Same with Sion. They're just there to be cool looking villains, nothing more. Throw in some philosophical crap by Kreia and Visas to distract us and hope we don't notice that they're never explained.