Maul and Oppress vs. Darth Tyranus

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Do you rank CW Ventress and Savage to be a superior duo to ROTS Skywalker and Kenobi who have some of the best synergy in the PT?

No. Skywalker on his own has consistently satlemated Count Dooku during the CW.

But you don't seem to get that A>B>C doesn't work like that.

Just because ROTS Obi-Wan is in the same league as CW Maul, and possibly above Savage, doesn't mean they will be just as useless against a Force TK attack from Count Dooku as ROTS Obi-Wan was.

Put it this away who do you think is a superior duo, Ventress and Savage, or CW Maul & a better trained Savage??

Then think of how the fight with the less trained Savage and Ventress went.

Like I said Dooku can win this but it will depend on him Saber raping Savage first (taking advantage of his lack of training) and then left with a one on one against CW Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. Skywalker on his own has consistently satlemated Count Dooku during the CW.

But you don't seem to get that A>B>C doesn't work like that.

Considering Dooku defeats Skywalker and Kenobi consistently with the force it seems to suggest that Tyranus' force Mastery, not bladework is what puts him solidly above CW Skywalker and Kenobi. There hasn't been a single time Skywalker hasn't been helpless against Dooku's Lightning TK combo.

Just because ROTS Obi-Wan is in the same league as CW Maul, and possibly above Savage, doesn't mean they will be just as useless against a Force TK attack from Count Dooku as ROTS Obi-Wan was.

And what exactly has CW Maul and Savage shown to put their force shielding techniques above ROTS Skywalker and Kenobi?

Put it this away who do you think is a superior duo, Ventress and Savage, or CW Maul & a better trained Savage??

Clearly the latter.

Then think of how the fight with the less trained Savage and Ventress went.

In a small enclosed space with no objects for Dooku to TK without them all getting spaced. If the duel happened on the Invisible Hand, I have no doubt that Ventress or Savage would have gotten the exact same treatment as Kenobi. The difference here is that Dooku is can retreat to the Grand Convocation chamber and use his force Mastery to outmanuver the duo.

Like I said Dooku can win this but it will depend on him Saber raping Savage first (taking advantage of his lack of training) and then left with a one on one against CW Maul. [/B]

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

And what exactly has CW Maul and Savage shown to put their force shielding techniques above ROTS Skywalker and Kenobi?

The fact that Savage lasted much longer against Dooku is evidence. The best Dooku seemed to do was hold Savage at bay with his FL. So he used his Force powers on him but didn't permanently dispose of him.

Maul walking right through a Nightsisters FL. Also the fact that Dave Filoni has flat out said that Maul is very well trained in all the ways of the Sith .

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In a small enclosed space with no objects for Dooku to TK without them all getting spaced. If the duel happened on the Invisible Hand, I have no doubt that Ventress or Savage would have gotten the exact same treatment as Kenobi. The difference here is that Dooku is can retreat to the Grand Convocation chamber and use his force Mastery to outmanuver the duo.

Small enclosed space shouldn't stop Dooku Force choking anyone. The fact that a Rage enhanced Savage choked Dooku and Ventress doesn't help your case.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So you believe the difference between Dooku's bladework and Savage's bladework is wider than the gap between Dooku's Force Mastery and Savage's Force Mastery.'?
I really don't think so. Dooku has studied the force for around seven decades compared to Savage's couple of years. He's a master swordsman yes, but I think his mastery of the force is just as, if not more deadly.

Thing is Savage is such a huge physical beast, it would be difficult taking him out without using a direct Saber slash.

Look at all the FL blasts he took from Dooku.

Plus there's Kenobi chopping Savage's arm off, just makes it more likely Savage would go down that way.

Btw does anyone have the passage of Obi-Wan chopping Savage's arm??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The fact that Savage lasted much longer against Dooku is evidence. The best Dooku seemed to do was hold Savage at bay with his FL. So he used his Force powers on him but didn't permanently dispose of him.

He didn't really have that opportunity given the enclosed space. If he took the time he took to dispense of Savage with the force like he did Kenobi in ROTS he would have been bifurcated by Ventress.

Maul walking right through a Nightsisters FL. Also the fact that Dave Filoni has flat out said that Maul is very well trained in [b] all the ways of the Sith .

That is a no limits fallacy to say that because a production person said that Maul is trained in 'all ways of the Sith' he is immune to anything Dooku throws at him. And a Sith Lord's Force Lightning is>>>any other form as indicated by Darth Plaeguis.

Small enclosed space shouldn't stop Dooku Force choking anyone. The fact that a Rage enhanced Savage choked Dooku and Ventress doesn't help your case.

Thing is Savage is such a huge physical beast, it would be difficult taking him out without using a direct Saber slash.

I think sending him to the pit of the Grand Convocation Chamber and crushing him with a pod will more than suffice.

Look at all the FL blasts he took from Dooku.

Plus there's Kenobi chopping Savage's arm off, just makes it more likely Savage would go down that way.

You should spoiler tag that and I thought

Spoiler:
Sidious was the one that did that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He didn't really have that opportunity given the enclosed space. If he took the time he took to dispense of Savage with the force like he did Kenobi in ROTS he would have been bifurcated by Ventress....

Yes it should. In ROTS Dooku has to kick Skywalker out of the way to focus on Kenobi. If Dooku can split up the Zabrak bros for a second he'll be able to take out Savage with ease.

Ah I see your point now. Yes that's possible.

But I do think Maul is probably better trained and therefore more able to handle a TK attack like that than Obi-Wan.

And I also think with Savage's durability it would prove more difficult(though not impossible) doing it to him than it was doing it to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You should spoiler tag that and I thought

Spoiler:
Sidious was the one that did that.

Well I figured no one here's saying "Don't tell me what happens"..

Anyway..

Spoiler:
Yes Obi-Wan cuts off Savage's arm. He apparently does this while briefly fending off both Maul and Savage. Then apparently Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan away and they escape. But no one's posted the passage so I don't know how exactly the arm cutting takes place.

Though I'm guessing it's the same fight where Maul's fighting Obi-Wan while Savage is fighting Adi Gallia and Savage kills Adi. So it could well be an enraged Obi-Wan lashing out. That's just my guess.

Originally posted by ares834
Well Dooku held his own against both Anakin (prior z0ne) and Obi-Wan quite well and I'd certainly put that duo above Savage and Maul.

Originally posted by ares834
ABC logic much?

Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And would 2 Obi-Wans beat Maul and Oppress?

Currently Obi-Wan hasn't beaten both of them yet. When he does we can say that they suck dick, but not before.

Though seriously if he does beat them both they suck dick.

Well he does

Spoiler:
beat them both in the next episode (after seeing Adi's death)

But does that mean we just completely forget his past record against these 2? Especially against Savage, who in one fight was overpowering Obi-Wan and Anakin and in the next fight beat Obi-Wan down in seconds.

As for the thread The ROTS Anakin/Obi-Wan analogy just doesn't work.

Dooku isn't just going to just Force choke Opress as easily as he did Obi-Wan. And he certainly won't be kicking Opress half way across the room like he did to Anakin.

And considering Maul's combat prowess and force training under Darth Sidious I doubt he'll be easy fodder for Dooku either.

So it's all going to come down to Sabers Imo. In which case I give Dooku a chance but give majority to the team.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Not really, no. I'm not saying Dooku is necessarily superior to the duo. But, considering Dooku's past track record against duos I'm inclined to give him the win.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

More specifically, this case is even more not an example of ABC logic in that Dooku's performance against paired opponents has to be judged somehow. By using an even more rigorous test than Maul/Oppress, Ares makes the distance between Dooku's ability and his opponents' even more clear. It's just good rhetoric.

(Whether that is a valid avenue of investigation is open to interpretation; you might object that Dooku spent more time separating the pair (AotC and, to a lesser extent, on the Invisible Hand) than he did fighting them. Merely discounting the syllogism on grounds of format alone, however, will get you laughed out of court.)

Originally posted by Zampanó

(Whether that is a valid avenue of investigation is open to interpretation; you might object that Dooku spent more time separating the pair (AotC and, to a lesser extent, on the Invisible Hand) than he did fighting them. Merely discounting the syllogism on grounds of format alone, however, will get you laughed out of court.)

Originally posted by Me

As for the thread The ROTS Anakin/Obi-Wan analogy just doesn't work.

Dooku isn't just going to just Force choke Opress as easily as he did Obi-Wan. And he certainly won't be kicking Opress half way across the room like he did to Anakin.

I think the better A>B>C analogy here would be the Ventress & Savage vs Dooku.

And then decide how much harder the fight will be for Count Dooku by replacing Ventress with Maul and having a better trained Savage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think the better A>B>C analogy here would be the Ventress & Savage vs Dooku.

And then decide how much harder the fight will be for Count Dooku by replacing Ventress with Maul and having a better trained Savage.

You seem to have this covered. I'll go back to not-reading things and sniping from the sidelines.

Or you could go over to the All-Versus Forum and start having fun again.

Maaaaaaaaybe?

NO
(I still owe you an argument here, I think? I promise it's still on the agenda. You can expect it by February.)

But does that mean we just completely forget his past record against these 2? Especially against Savage, who in one fight was overpowering Obi-Wan and Anakin and in the next fight beat Obi-Wan down in seconds.

In the initial fight, I'll note they were playing it very defensively and not taking many risks.

Originally posted by Q99
In the initial fight, I'll note they were playing it very defensively and not taking many risks.

Possibly. But they are the ones who went to confront him. And doesn't change the fact that he was seemingly stalemating them both and ended the fight by flattening them to the floor with the force. Of course Savage was in a rage so fighting at his Apex. Fair enough...

Now in the next episode Obi-Wan will

Spoiler:
fight both Savage and Maul using 2 Lightsabers and defeat them

Of course I haven't seen that fight yet, so can't analyze the circumstances yet, but when I do I may be able to argue that the Maul brothers were not fighting at their peak this time. While Obi-Wan is more determined than ever:

Spoiler:
He does witness Savage kill Adi. Although I do also like the idea of Obi-Wan Excelling at using Jar Kai

But my point is we should consider all their fights and not just the one where the Brothers lose saying they suck now.
The same brothers do after all later in the season give

Spoiler:
Sidious a fight, who incidentally also uses 2 Sabers to fight and defeat them both.

But with obviously with much more ease than Obi-Wan does. But still it's frigging

Spoiler:
Sidious going Jar Kai on them

I consider the idea that Sidious was taking them seriously when in a similar situation Dooku was dancing around Savage, practically toying with his opponents to be quite ludicrous myself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I consider the idea that Sidious was taking them seriously when in a similar situation Dooku was dancing around Savage, practically toying with his opponents to be quite ludicrous myself.

And the idea that Obi-Wan can suddenly

Spoiler:
defeat Maul and Opress together

But hey that's SW for you Ludicrously Inconsistent.

But I would note Dooku has never fought Maul, and clearly does see Savage as a threat to him.

Because he was taken off-guard and they kicked the shit out of him. Both times they rumbled Obi-Wan wasn't in good shape.

Dooku fought someone arguably on par with Maul and he said that Savage might become a threat to him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he was taken off-guard and they kicked the shit out of him. Both times they rumbled Obi-Wan wasn't in good shape.

That's just an excuse. Obi-Wan was in perfect shape the first time. He was told by Mace he'd be walking into a trap. He was ready for a fight having ignited his Lightsaber first.

He turned around and acknowledged Savage was there before Savage attacked him. Maul hadn't even engaged him by the time Savage had him on the floor.

Maul also fights him

Spoiler:
one on one in the next episode before the 2 on 1 fight

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku fought someone arguably on par with Maul and he said that Savage [b]might become a threat to him. [/B]

Nope he never said "might become". Being a threat doesn't make him Dooku's equal. But it makes him at least a challenge.

Oh and as for Dooku dancing around him, that ended with Dooku on the floor. Then Dooku keeps him at bay with his FL, and that ended with Savage force choking Dooku.

Dooku even says to Ventress "Your no match for me without your monster." Implying the 2 of them may be a match for him.