Ultimate Jedi team runs a gauntlet
FotJ Luke, RotS Yoda and RotS Mace run a gauntlet:
TWO SCENARIOS:
1. They have 3 hours rest between the battles.
2. They have full rest before each battle.
SETTING:
Geonosis Arena
How far do they ago in each scenario?
1. Dooku, Malgus and Savage Oppress
2. Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn and Corran Horn
3. Galen Marek, Satele Shan and Nomi Sunrider
4. Exar Kun (with Amulets), Revan and OT Vader
5. DE Sidious, Bane (with Orbalisks) and Caedus
Under scenario one: 3 tests, 4 only troubles them by way of Kun, 5 they fall as their strength fails. Even with their ability to replenish themselves in the Force I don't think they could make it.
Scenario two: Both sides take losses. I'm not sure who goes up against Bane while he's juiced by his Orbs, but whoever does is dead. Caedus falls to any of the three Jedi he faces as all are his superiors in sabers and the force. That leaves any two of the Jedi facing Bane and Sidious. In sabers I'd say likely stalemate normally, but Bane can go completely offensive with almost no fear of being wounded, possibly even allowing him to attack both remaining Jedi at close range while Sidious tools with them in the Force.
This is actually a pretty good setup. The relative closeness will keep any over-the-top Force attacks from being unleashed but there would certainly be some fireworks. Looking forward to see what others say as I really think this could go multiple ways.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Under scenario one: 3 tests, 4 only troubles them by way of Kun, 5 they fall as their strength fails. Even with their ability to replenish themselves in the Force I don't think they could make it.Scenario two: Both sides take losses. I'm not sure who goes up against Bane while he's juiced by his Orbs, but whoever does is dead. Caedus falls to any of the three Jedi he faces as all are his superiors in sabers and the force. That leaves any two of the Jedi facing Bane and Sidious. In sabers I'd say likely stalemate normally, but Bane can go completely offensive with almost no fear of being wounded, possibly even allowing him to attack both remaining Jedi at close range while Sidious tools with them in the Force.
This is actually a pretty good setup. The relative closeness will keep any over-the-top Force attacks from being unleashed but there would certainly be some fireworks. Looking forward to see what others say as I really think this could go multiple ways. [/B]
I consider Luke and Yoda to be Bane's superiors, (especially Luke). Mace is not that far behind him too IMO, and certainly rivals Bane in sabers.
Actually, come to think about it, Mace vs. Bane may be the best option for the Jedi. I feel Vaapad’s superconducting loop and Shatterpoint will be Mace’s triumph cards.
Meanwhile Caedus will die to Yoda, quicker than the struggle between Mace and Bane will be decided.
Luke and Sidious will drag out too, but I feel Skywalker’s skill with the lightsaber will give him the win. Plus, if Luke can take Abeloth in the force, he can take DE Sidious no doubt.
I think both Yoda and Luke are superior to Bane overall in sabers by just a small amount, but again Bane has to worry almost nothing about defense and that's what aids him here. As to shatterpoint that is something I was considering as well. I assume it would work, but it's also a matter of if it only allows him to kill the targeted Orbalisk or if the strike is enough to penetrate and leave a major wound. Regardless, if any damage is done they'll be pumping toxins into Bane which certainly wouldn't aid in the fighting.
Maybe the Jedi take this, but I think it really depends on whether it's three one-on-one duels or if perhaps Bane and Sidious engage the three Jedi with Sabers while Caedus conjures up something. Sidious is certainly a better Darkside practitioner than Caedus but I think Palps would better serve the cause helping Bane to occupy all three Jedi. I have to say though for all the talk about arcane techniques that Jacen learned during his travels he really was pretty whack as a Lord of the Sith; he's certainly the weakest link here, but I think that helps to make this a more balanced fight.
@Ascedancy
Originally posted by Ascendancy
I think both Yoda and Luke are superior to Bane overall in sabers by just a small amount, but again Bane has to worry almost nothing about defense and that's what aids him here.
As to shatterpoint that is something I was considering as well. I assume it would work, but it's also a matter of if it only allows him to kill the targeted Orbalisk or if the strike is enough to penetrate and leave a major wound. Regardless, if any damage is done they'll be pumping toxins into Bane which certainly wouldn't aid in the fighting.
Maybe the Jedi take this, but I think it really depends on whether it's three one-on-one duels or if perhaps Bane and Sidious engage the three Jedi with Sabers while Caedus conjures up something.
Sidious is certainly a better Darkside practitioner than Caedus but I think Palps would better serve the cause helping Bane to occupy all three Jedi.
I have to say though for all the talk about arcane techniques that Jacen learned during his travels he really was pretty whack as a Lord of the Sith; he's certainly the weakest link here, but I think that helps to make this a more balanced fight.
@ Based
Originally posted by Based
Stop at 3 for scenario one.
Barely clear for scenario two.
Malgus should be in number 4 instead of featless Revan, that would make up a team with immense amound of TK power, so they possibly would be able to handle Yoda and Windu with Force.
Otherwise, 5 is the only one they could lose.
Can't agree that Yoda would be able to defeat any of those fast. With all his uber power his strike's kinetic energy is way too small. Not only because of his much smaller weight and strength but because he does most of his strikes in the air. He out speeds rather than overpowers. And we saw that even Dooku could keep up with his speed.
In this case Caedus is as fast as Luke, Sidious is faster than Dooku and Bane apart from speed has Obralisks.
I would put Caedus against Windu because of the way he uses kicks and punches. In fight with Jaina he was kicking her nearly after every lightsaber strike. And he crippled even Luke with kicks. Woudn't put him against Yoda as his kicks would be useless against such a small oponent.
Bane I would put against Luke as wearing Obralisk is the best way to confront a Gary Stu.
In general Jedi fight much better as a team. Moreover, Luke can merge all three into battle-meld, so they fight as a single creature.
However, number 5 has Jacen, who is one of the best battle-meld practitioners, so they will get the same advantage of cordinated fight.
Originally posted by Arhael
Malgus should be in number 4 instead of featless Revan, that would make up a team with immense amound of TK power, so they possibly would be able to handle Yoda and Windu with Force.
Can't agree that Yoda would be able to defeat any of those fast.
With all his uber power his strike's kinetic energy is way too small. Not only because of his much smaller weight and strength but because he does most of his strikes in the air. He out speeds rather than overpowers. And we saw that even Dooku could keep up with his speed.
In this case Caedus is as fast as Luke, Sidious is faster than Dooku and Bane apart from speed has Obralisks. [/b]
Yoda > Malgus / Revan in the Force
Malgus with clap of hands sent wave that spread around and turned cars upside down.
Vader could keep up with his TK even against Marek who could move star destroyer. Marek managed to overpower him only after use of Dun Moch and getting enraged.
And Kun has talisman with which he can conjure immence blasts.
And I didn't say that Yoda and Windu will get handled, only that there is possibility. They are still skilled Jedi that can find ways to dodge or defend against immense TK attacks. And of course they have Luke who can provide good defence for them.
Mace is also not that far behind those two, and, importantly,against darksiders Vaapad will level him up.
With Dooku being an exceptional saber duelist himself, and arguably more skilled with a saber than Yoda’s opponents here.
The Count is also strong enough to parry strikes from Grievous (who can dent starship metal) or Anakin (who tears droids with his bear hands) but struggles against Yoda, even when amped by darskide nexus on Vjun.
Be mindful that in the saber duel between Yoda and Sidious, Yoda showed himself to be at least Sidious’s equal (and even disarms him in RotS script).
And notice that I didn't say that they will lose, I said: "could lose", which is only possibility. And explained how weaknesses and advantages of the characters could be exploited for team 5 to win.
Alternatively, Luke could engage Jacen, Yoda - Bane and Windu - Sidious, this way ultimate team is much more likely to win.
Originally posted by Arhael
I will leave that "arguably" for other topic.
It doesn't matter at all that Dooku could block immencely strong attacks of Grievous and Anakin. Yoda's attacks carry little strength but he overwhelmes with speed, agility and quantity of those attacks.
I wouldn't make the assumption that he's weak just because he's small. He overpowers Sidious is a direct saberlock at one point in their duel. This is the same Sidious who held off Savage Opress with one hand!
Originally posted by Arhael
Lets be realistic.
Yoda had hell lot of struggle to prevent a pillar from falling on Kenobi and Anakin.
And I didn't say that Yoda and Windu will get handled, only that there is [b]possibility. They are still skilled Jedi that can find ways to dodge or defend against immense TK attacks. And of course they have Luke who can provide good defence for them. [/B]
For god sake.
Vaapad is state of mind and lightsaber form.
State of mind allows him to fight on his full potential. And lightsaber Form is the style he mastered to exeptional level.
It DOES NOT level him up with darksiders and it DOES NOT matter that they are darksiders AT ALL.
On a side note: Isn’t it possible that Vaapad is a state of mind THAT allows Mace to get rid of his fear of the darkside AND channel the darside power from within himself as well from the outside?
I will leave that "arguably" for other topic.
It doesn't matter at all that Dooku could block immencely strong attacks of Grievous and Anakin. Yoda's attacks carry little strength but he overwhelmes with speed, agility and quantity of those attacks.
And? Did I say Yoda would lose?
My point is that Yoda's physical limitations and lack of kinetic energy in his strikes make it very difficult for him to win anyone in lightsaber combat, [b]if he doesn't have significant speed advantage. At the same time no matter how strong and fast opponent is whether it is Sidious or even Luke, they will not be able to penetrate Yoda's defences becase he is too small and agile. [/B]
And notice that I didn't say that they will lose, I said: "could lose", which is only possibility. And explained how weaknesses and advantages of the characters could be exploited for team 5 to win.
Alternatively, Luke could engage Jacen, Yoda - Bane and Windu - Sidious, this way ultimate team is much more likely to win.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I wouldn't make the assumption that he's weak just because he's small. He overpowers Sidious is a direct saberlock at one point in their duel. This is the same Sidious who held off Savage Opress with one hand!
I wouldn't make the assumption that he's weak just because he's small. He overpowers Sidious is a direct saberlock at one point in their duel. This is the same Sidious who held off Savage Opress with one hand!
Yoda with Force can still himself in air to prevent him flying away like a baseball from a bat but it is a lot of extra effort. He can muster a lot of strength and overpower, when defencively grounded on the floor. But when he attacks and jumps, he needs to redirect a lot of his effort to overcome his limitations such as lack of height, weight and strength.
“Hell lot of struggle” is a hell of exaggeration IMO.
He seemed very concentrated, but nowhere it is implied he almost couldn’t go through it.
His power is seen when he and Sidious threw pods in the Senate with ease or when Yoda telekinetically hurls an army of droids and then manhandles 4 giant landing ships each full od droids and tanks (during the battle of Coruscant).
Great Scott!
I’m not an expert on metaphysical aspects of Vaapad, so I will not dig into the details.
However, all I hear is the “superconducting loop” that Mace used to match Sidious.
This implies he redirected some of Sidious’s power. So he is as strong as his opponent “helps” him to be.On side ncote: Isn’t it possible that Vaapad is a state of mind THAT allows Mace to get rid of his fear of the darkside AND channel the darside power from within himself as well from the outside?
When Windu was deflecting lightning, it said:
"Power passed into him and out again without touching him.
And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source"
- But power DID NOT pass into him, it was deflected by his lightsaber - which is a common Jedi technique. But, when he was without lightsaber and power truly passed into him, you know what happened. Vaapad is state of mind that requires practitioner to enjoy fight and that's what Windu did.
It would seem to indicate that aside from his speed, agility and quantity, Yoda’s attacks do not lack strength.
Yeah, perhaps this paring would be the best for the Jedi team, given that “non-restricted” Luke could overwhelm Caedus quicker than the other two battles will play out
And there is strong reason why I put Luke against Jacen. Luke knows how Jacen fights unlike other two and he, also, utilizes strikes and kicks during combat. And still Luke sustained a lot of serious injuries.
When Windu kicked, Palpatine fell down and and lost his lightsaber.
In contrary Luke elbowed Jacen into temple, kneed him in the chin, snap-kicked into stomach, blind-sided with poke into an eye and shattered a face bone with another elbow strike. And despite all these concussions and injuies Jacen was still capable to fight. Moreover, after each concussion he dodged every killing blow that imidietly followed and countered with his own cripling attacks and even broke Luke's knee.
Windu managed to defeat Sidious who fought as pure fencer. But do you really think he would fair against Caedus' strikes and kicks any better than Luke? Imho Windu will go down hard.
Originally posted by Arhael
...do you really think he would fair against Caedus' strikes and kicks any better than Luke?
First, you have no humble opinion. You've made it clear that humble is NOT a word or trait that fits your character. Secondly, YES, Mace should fair well against Caedus. Mace has SICK H2H combat skills... surpassing Luke... IMHO.
Originally posted by Arhael
And he did that, when standing on the floor - something solid to push against, when using strength. But, when he attacks, he is in air.
If you punch someone, when your feet are solid on the floor with perfect balance, he will get knocked down. But if you punch, when in jump or simply unbalanced, impact will be a lot smaller.Yoda with Force can still himself in air to prevent him flying away like a baseball from a bat but it is a lot of extra effort. He can muster a lot of strength and overpower, when defencively grounded on the floor. But when he attacks and jumps, he needs to redirect a lot of his effort to overcome his limitations such as lack of height, weight and strength.
What the **** are you talking about?
Thanks for the reply.
Good points!
Let me make few comments, thought.
Originally posted by Arhael
And he did that, when standing on the floor - something solid to push against, when using strength. But, when he attacks, he is in air.
If you punch someone, when your feet are solid on the floor with perfect balance, he will get knocked down. But if you punch, when in jump or simply unbalanced, impact will be a lot smaller.
Yoda with Force can still himself in air to prevent him flying away like a baseball from a bat but it is a lot of extra effort.
He can muster a lot of strength and overpower, when defencively grounded on the floor. But when he attacks and jumps, he needs to redirect a lot of his effort to overcome his limitations such as lack of height, weight and strength.
That platform in RotS required less effort, than pillar simply because it was floating on repulsors.
Spoiler:
you can’t…. the argument on this forum was made many times, none conclusively proved that repulsors helped either Yoda or Sidious to manipulate the pods
And that cartoon you mentioned obviously exagerated what Jedi can do with the Force. We have Yoda and Windu and other Jedi participating in Geonosis, that's what Jedi of Old Republic were really capable against armies of droids. We have Luke and Mara struggling a lot against single droideka and trying to out wit it, they couldn't simply disable it with Force. Similarly Qui-Gon and Kenobi were on the retreat from two droidekas. Sorry, but that cartoon is bullshit.
It IS canon. 😎
BTW. What is up with you complaining about “exaggerated” Force feats in the cartoon… yet few post earlier using the example of Marek’s feats from friggin The Force Unleashed, the epitome of the over-hyped portrayal of the Force.
Ain’t it funny, don’t ya think? 😄
Here is the truth.
Force users draw on the Force. Windu couldn't draw on Sidious' power because Sidious wasn't giving any. Sidious was drawing on the Force as well and empowering his muscles to give [b]physical attacks. You can't draw power from physical attacks, you can only block or deflect them with your own strength and skill and Vaapad ia a combat skill.
Vaapad description says that he channels his inner darkness, it doesn't say anything about outer darkness. Channeling outer darkness would be a Force power but Vaapad is NOT a Force power.
There is, however, concept of drawing on emotions of others but it is, also, Force power, not to mention Sith power. [/B]
The author says:
"Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source"
And you say…
But power DID NOT pass into him, it was deflected by his lightsaber - which is a common Jedi technique.
Well, to be frank, I do not feel compelled to take your words for it, seeing how the author puts it.
This is just your interpretation, and it is rendered obsolete by the RotS quote you yourself provided.
WHY?
Let us see:
"Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source"
Gee, I wonder what power can pass INTO Mace and OUT of him. Is it his own power? NO cos it was “reflected back to the source”. The source, which was Palpatine.
So obviously Palpatine was giving in power, Mace redirected it back at him. How? Vaapad allowed him to do so. Yes, it is a state of mind…yes, it is a saber style…and it apparently makes possible for Mace to use “a superconducting loop”.
BTW. We don’t really have to understand how exactly the power comes and backfires back at Palpatine, it is enough that the text identifies this process is happening.
But, when he was without lightsaber and power truly passed into him, you know what happened. Vaapad is state of mind that requires practitioner to enjoy fight and that's what Windu did.
Really? Re-watch AotC and you will see that Dooku blocks his strikes even with one hand and doesn't even get overwhelmed and attacks back. Fight looks pretty equal. There was no strong impact between their attacks, Dooku's style lacks kinetic energy and it was still enough to block Yoda's strikes even with one hand.
My reasoning is different.
Bane because of Obralisk will most likely win, if he fights Luke or Windu.
But Yoda is too small and agile thus can counter Bane's attacks much easier. Also, Luke's and Windu's immence stength would be useless against Bane because Obralisk is indestructible.
And Yoda's superior speed and agiliy is far more benefitial to reach Bane's vulnerable parts such as wrists and neck.
And there is strong reason why I put Luke against Jacen. Luke knows how Jacen fights unlike other two and he, also, utilizes strikes and kicks during combat. And still Luke sustained a lot of serious injuries.
When Windu kicked, Palpatine fell down and and lost his lightsaber.
In contrary Luke elbowed Jacen into temple, kneed him in the chin, snap-kicked into stomach, blind-sided with poke into an eye and shattered a face bone with another elbow strike. And despite all these concussions and injuies Jacen was still capable to fight. Moreover, after each concussion he dodged every killing blow that imidietly followed and countered with his own cripling attacks and even broke Luke's knee.
Windu managed to defeat Sidious who fought as pure fencer. But do you really think he would fair against Caedus' strikes and kicks any better than Luke? Imho Windu will go down hard.
Windu is no slouch in h2h combat. In fact, he managed to strike Kar Vastor 4 times before Vastor was able to blink. That is a freakish speed feat.
Moreover, at one point Mace destroyed countless droids with his bare hands and the Force strength combo (yes, I am going to use the cartoon feats). So he will not be easy pickings for Caedus in h2h combat.
This argument can work if we discard the fact that Yoda is using the Force to hype his speed, stamina AND strength.
Guess what, WITHOUT his Force-imbued strength he is just an old, weak being at the end of his life span.
WITH the Force he is capable of jumping around at ridiculous speed and carrying a house-sized gun on his back.
I don’t see how you come up with “an extra effort” when, obviously, Yoda is not relying on his physical power.
Prove that while they were tackling them, the pods were floating on repulses.
The fact that you don’t like the Force portrayal in the cartoon does nothing to its credibility.
Another one is that we see Sidious holding in air at least 4-5 platforms in air simultaniously. In total throwing around 10 platforms or more and all the while laughing with no visible effort. Is he so much cooler than Yoda, who struggled a lot to lift single pillar?
Two platforms he lifts around 10-20 meters up before throwing. Why using so much effort to lift it so high, when acceleration downward could be achieved very easily? Also, the speed with which he lifted them and then threw is proportionally the same.
In general platforms with repulsors off would fall down much faster and because of gravity they woudn't fly in streight lines.
BTW. What is up with you complaining about “exaggerated” Force feats in the cartoon… yet few post earlier using the example of Marek’s feats from friggin The Force Unleashed, the epitome of the over-hyped portrayal of the Force.True. But there is still enormous difference between chaneling effort of pushing Star Destroyer to redirect it's fall and grasping two equally huge star ships and pulling them on each other with such strength that they literally merge together into single explosion.
Ain’t it funny, don’t ya think? 😄
Let me get this straight,So obviously Palpatine was giving in power, Mace redirected it back at him. How? Vaapad allowed him to do so. Yes, it is a state of mind…yes, it is a saber style…and it apparently makes possible for Mace to use “a superconducting loop”.
Deflecting lightning with lightsaber is NOT Vaapad technique.
Moreover, this power redirecting is compared "as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt". - Blaster bolt like any attack has strength and impact, Force user needs to use his own strength to deflect it. Same way to deflect lightsaber attack Force user needs to use his own strength.
Even moreover, read Vaapad description itself.
"Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The" - It doesn't say anything about using opponents power of opponent.
Anakin:
" The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent.
And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose" - As you see Anakin feels Windu losing Jedi restraint. He doesn't feel him redicting power but he feels his fury and "poisonous abscess" in his heart.
But Windu in his mind percepts it as accepting fury and speed and making superconduit loop. In other words
his state of mind allowes him to use darkside witbout succumbing to it.
In comparison Dooku's state of mind:
"The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center.
...
He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall." - If we gonna take Windu's loop as a real thingy, then Dooku is for real can become center of universe.
At this point he was betrayed by Anakin, and had his hand chopped off. Of course his level of concentration and immersion in Vaapad will drop.
Great Scott….I just pointed out to you that Dooku is himself exceptionally strong…
Windu is no slouch in h2h combat. In fact, he managed to strike Kar Vastor 4 times before Vastor was able to blink. That is a freakish speed feat.
But in any case you don't have to agree with my opinion that Windu would go down hard. I merely gave reasons why it is better for him to take on Palpatine instead.
Originally posted by axel_jovanThe fact that you don’t like the Force portrayal in the cartoon does nothing to its credibility.
It IS canon. 😎
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Moreover, at one point Mace destroyed countless droids with his bare hands and the Force strength combo (yes, I am going to use the cartoon feats).
I'd be weary of this. As canon as it may be we have been told by numerous sources that IT IS Exaggerated.
So as reasonable debators we need to consider that when comparing feats between different mediums. Otherwise the feat comparisons would be grossly unfair.
For example if we compare how a weaponless Mace dealt with hundreds of droids in the CWMini, to how a weaponless Dooku got captured by 30 Pirates in the New CW Series, then we would have no choice but to assume that Mace is >>> than Dooku in the Force (which I'm hoping no one here actually believes).
Originally posted by Arhael
Let me explain it differently. For example, Luke with his much bigger weight can stand in solid position on the floor and put his whole Force effort on empowering muscles, when striking. But Yoda cannot still himself in one place without Force because of much smaller weight and the fact that he is in air. If he put his whole strength into empowering muscles on striking opponent, he would fly away like a baseball. Unlike Luke he needs to use Force to root himself in one place on every strike, plus his original strength is much smaller and he needs to constantly jump. This is my point of Yoda using a lot of extra effort to overcome his limitations.
Thus, his attacks don't carry a lot of strength but as compensation they are more numerous and he is more agile.
The most obvious proof is comparison between Yoda's stronger effort to stop slowly falling pillar in AotC and lesser effort to abruptly stop platform falling on high speed.
Another one is that we see Sidious holding in air at least 4-5 platforms in air simultaniously. In total throwing around 10 platforms or more and all the while laughing with no visible effort. Is he so much cooler than Yoda, who struggled a lot to lift single pillar?
Two platforms he lifts around 10-20 meters up before throwing. Why using so much effort to lift it so high, when acceleration downward could be achieved very easily? Also, the speed with which he lifted them and then threw is proportionally the same.
In general platforms with repulsors off would fall down much faster and because of gravity they woudn't fly in streight lines.
True. But there is still enormous difference between chaneling effort of pushing Star Destroyer to redirect it's fall and grasping two equally huge star ships and pulling them on each other with such strength that they literally merge together into single explosion.
Let me get it even more straight.
Deflecting lightning with lightsaber is NOT Vaapad technique.
Moreover, this power redirecting is compared "as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt". - Blaster bolt like any attack has strength and impact, Force user needs to use his own strength to deflect it. Same way to deflect lightsaber attack Force user needs to use his own strength.
Even moreover, read Vaapad description itself.
"Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The" - It doesn't say anything about using opponents power of opponent.
Anakin:
" The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent.
And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though [b]some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose" - As you see Anakin feels Windu losing Jedi restraint. He doesn't feel him redicting power but he feels his fury and "poisonous abscess" in his heart. [/B]
But Windu in his mind percepts it as accepting fury and speed and making superconduit loop.
In other words his state of mind allowes him to use darkside witbout succumbing to it.
In comparison Dooku's state of mind:
"The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center.
...
He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall." - If we gonna take Windu's loop as a real thingy, then Dooku is for real can become center of universe.
"lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and [b]without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on[/i]" - It doesn't say anything about concentration levels, it says about him not having lightsaber.
Maybe that's why, in cramped space, when he couldn't outmanoeuver Opress and had to block his strike full on, he unlike Sidious got disarmed and knocked backward.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd be weary of this. As canon as it may be we have been told by numerous sources that IT IS Exaggerated.So as reasonable debators we need to consider that when comparing feats between different mediums. Otherwise the feat comparisons would be grossly unfair.
For example if we compare how a weaponless Mace dealt with hundreds of droids in the CWMini, to how a weaponless Dooku got captured by 30 Pirates in the New CW Series, then we would have no choice but to assume that Mace is >>> than Dooku in the Force (which I'm hoping no one here actually believes).
And maybe Dooku had an off-day. Give the old man a break 🙂