Ultimate Jedi team runs a gauntlet

true, but it doesn't change the fact that all that media fall into EU , which tends to "exaggerate" Focre, especially video games.

Let me give other reasons why Marek is more powerful. First reason is because he is darksider and they are generally are more powerful. Dooku was Jedi most of his life and, yet, he became more powerful as Sith. Anakin on two occasions overpowered Dooku by tapping into his anger. Windu's Vaapad allowed him to utilize darkside, thus making him powerful enough to defeat Sidious. Sith unlike Jedi benifit from emotions, while Jedi restrain themselves.
Marek in particular constantly strained his capabilities much more than even most other Sith and his psycho rage was boosting his power a lot.

In comparison Yoda rarely used Force and mostly passively meditated. Luke post DE, also, like Yoda used as least Force as possible and as the result he was getting fatiqued very fast.

But several factors put Luke above Yoda.
First, Luke uses positive emotions unlike Old Order which promoted no emotions. So, Luke can be Jedi without restraint drawing on Force with strong emotions like Sith.

Second, unlike Yoda, Luke was often driven into situations, where he had to exert himself like Marek. During Vong War he got back into prime because of that. First, he moved black hole and lost consciousness. Later he projected illusion of Mara's ship and concealed real one both visually and on scanners. Exertion was so strong that his face wrinkled like Palpatine's. In Swarm War he replicated this feat but it didn't age him as much because of previous exertions he got more powerful. In FotJ he strained himself on many occasions and got Force exhausted at least three times.

And third, Luke with Jacen developed techniques that allowed them to draw heavily on the Force even after getting exhausted:
"During the past year, he and Jacen had been working on overload techniques, so he could endure the pain and fatigue almost indefinitely. His body would pay a steep price, aging a year in a matter of minutes, but he knew he would not collapse."

Another Yoda's disadvantage is that because of his physical limitations he needs to draw more on the Force then others, so he gets tired faster. Also, because of his old age his body cannot indure as much strain as when he was younger. We see how Sidious abuses Force by throwing multiple platforms. And Yoda conserves his reserves by dodging all of them but last one. As Jedi he uses less Force more wisely.

I am not saying that Yoda is weak. His raw power is likely above even Sidious'. Most likely he will be able to defend against TK of Malgus, Vader and Kun. However, if constantly bombarded by TK and other powers, for all the reasons above Yoda will be the first one to get exhausted out of three Jedi.

As you see, there is a lot of reasons why it is possible for Yoda and Windu to get Force handled.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

And maybe Dooku had an off-day. Give the old man a break 🙂

Only problem is in the commentary to that episode Dave Filoni specifically says Dooku could Not have taken all those pirates, because there was too many of them surrounding him, and sheer numbers kill the Jedi as shown in AOTC.

He starts off the commentary by saying "Yes Dooku is Extremely Powerful BUT...."

So what he most likely could have done in the CW Mini he certainly can't do in the CW Series.

That's why when going by feats it's best to compare feats from the same medium, and be careful when comparing feats between mediums especially when we are specifically told one medium Is exaggerated.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Only problem is in the commentary to that episode Dave Filoni specifically says Dooku could Not have taken all those pirates, because there was too many of them surrounding him, and sheer numbers kill the Jedi as shown in AOTC.
He starts off the commentary by saying "Yes Dooku is Extremely Powerful BUT...."
So what he most likely could have done in the CW Mini he certainly can't do in the CW Series.
That's why when going by feats it's best to compare feats from the same medium, and be careful when comparing feats between mediums especially when we are specifically told one medium Is exaggerated.

Consider this: General Krell decimates the 501st in Clone Wars Series. (starts 0:40)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SZ-cNYp1IM&feature=related

However, in the movies council members go down to few troopers.
Should we conclude that CW Series are also exaggerated, and somehow that puts in doubt feats of Savage, Maul, Kenobi, Anakin and any other character? I don’t think so.

Since Mace > Krell I see no reason why Mace could not decimate droids (which are often shown as being less skilled than the troopers).

It DID happen. It IS canon.

It can be treated as a high showing for Mace, similarly like Dooku being captured by pirates is a low showing for the Count.

The thing is that there's no way to know how exaggerated it is or what that means. Did Mace Windu not fight a droid army barehanded? If so then what really happened? Maybe he just fought a few? There aren't any answers to these questions so the only thing we have is what's actually on screen.

^ Good point.

Alternatively we could just ignore them since its impossible to judge what actually happened and use the series in threads for feats, i.e. The 'Arheal Defence.'

However, in the movies council members go down to few troopers.
Should we conclude that CW Series are also exaggerated, and somehow that puts in doubt feats of Savage, Maul, Kenobi, Anakin and any other character? I don’t think so.

Since Mace > Krell I see no reason why Mace could not decimate droids (which are often shown as being less skilled than the troopers).

As for Krell, he unlike those council members had two saber staffs, which makes deflecting blaster bolts much easier, while Windu fought army without lightsaber. And Krell fought a few dozens of troopers, while again Windu - countless army. Also, Krell's Force wave didn't even kill or knock unconscious anybody, while Windu's handled countless droids, so Force attack wasn't exaggerated either.

It DID happen. It IS canon.

Alternatively we could just ignore them since its impossible to judge what actually happened and use the series in threads for feats, i.e. The 'Arheal Defence.'

The same council members get blitzed by Palpatine like they hold lightsaber first time in their hands. Anakin simultaneously fights against Cin Dralig and his students with one hand behind his back.
It's a common misconception to assume that, if council member, then strong. Jedi become masters and council members not because of power.

Yea, being a good duelist is one of the reasons someone can get on the council, but not the only one. Plo Koon, Fisto, Anakin, Obi-wan.

However, it can also be because you're a good pilot (Tiin), a good diplomat (several of the pre-CW ones), or what have you. Cin Drallig may have been the best lightsaber *teacher* even if he wasn't the strongest with it, for example, and that could be why he's battlemaster.

That said, council members do tend to be fairly strong, and Ki Adi Mundi, someone with a fair number of showings under his belt and primarily known for his combat abilities, was one of the ones taking down by troopers on screen.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, being a good duelist is one of the reasons someone can get on the council, but not the only one. Plo Koon, Fisto, Anakin, Obi-wan.

However, it can also be because you're a good pilot (Tiin), a good diplomat (several of the pre-CW ones), or what have you. Cin Drallig may have been the best lightsaber *teacher* even if he wasn't the strongest with it, for example, and that could be why he's battlemaster.

That said, council members do tend to be fairly strong, and Ki Adi Mundi, someone with a fair number of showings under his belt and primarily known for his combat abilities, was one of the ones taking down by troopers on screen.

In any case there was at least dozen of troopers shooting at Mundi from close range simultaneously. I don't see how any Jedi would survive it, especially, when in confusion of why they turned against him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Just curious, where did you get info that they get into council because of skills? I always thought that they were getting there by proving their wisdom and dedication to Order.

I don't think there's anything directly stated on how they select; I'm just going on what each member is most famous for.

I.e. Ki Adi Mundi is a well-known warrior, so that's probably a large part of why he's in. Tiin is the order's best pilot. And so on.

Well as far as I know Count Dooku was not on the Jedi Council, and he was probably the second most powerful Jedi Pre-TPM.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
The thing is that what Filoni says or you suggest about “exaggeration” in Force portrayal fits very well all of SW media.

Yes but which other media has been specifically stated to be "exaggerated" by numerous sources. Once something is exaggerated there's no way to know what the extent of the feat actually was.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Consider this: General Krell decimates the 501st in Clone Wars Series. (starts 0:40)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SZ-cNYp1IM&feature=related

Well yeah Powerful Jedi do that kind of thing all the time with their Lightsaber. There's a big difference taking on those kind of odds with and without a Lightsaber. Let alone someone effectively wielding 4 Sabers.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
However, in the movies council members go down to few troopers.
Should we conclude that CW Series are also exaggerated, and somehow that puts in doubt feats of Savage, Maul, Kenobi, Anakin and any other character? I don’t think so.

Well no. The Jedi who went down to Troopers were all ambushed and taken completely by surprise.

And who says any of them were in the league of Savage, Obi-Wan or Anakin??

Originally posted by axel_jovan
It DID happen. It IS canon.

And what is AOTC not canon?? Where Mace with the aid of his Lightsaber and numerous other Jedi could not repeat any such feat.

Such a huge focal point of the SW story can not simply be put down to an inconsistency or plot hole. Whilst Mace's feat on Dantooine can easily be chalked down to an "Exaggeration" like it has been stated to have been, without it making any big change to canon.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
It can be treated as a high showing for Mace, similarly like Dooku being captured by pirates is a low showing for the Count.

I'd say it was more of a one-off than high showing. Never to be seen again.

And he obviously doesn't have that kind of power in the new series. In "Children of the Force" him and Obi-Wan get trapped by a few automatic lasers surrounding him.

He had some nice Force feats in the Ryloth series (which are good enough to use in a feat war). But he clearly couldn't have taken the entire droid army head on by himself.

Again with the pirate thing, Dave Filoni makes it clear in the episode commentary that it Wasn't a low showing. There's nothing he could have done.

He says maybe he could have taken out 15 of them, before 1 of them would have shot him. (He didn't have his Lightsaber on him remember).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well as far as I know Count Dooku was not on the Jedi Council, and he was probably the second most powerful Jedi Pre-TPM.

He was likely out of favor due to holding different views, similar to Qui-gon.

He turned down the opportunity for personal reasons. Apparently he wished to remain "more independent as a proactive peacekeeper."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what is AOTC not canon?? Where Mace with the aid of his Lightsaber and numerous other Jedi could not repeat any such feat.

Such a huge focal point of the SW story can not simply be put down to an inconsistency or plot hole. Whilst Mace's feat on Dantooine can easily be chalked down to an "Exaggeration" like it has been stated to have been, without it making any big change to canon.

Dantooine was after the initial conflicts on Geonosis. The Jedi did improve over time in their Force and combative abilities.

Two months after Dantooine, Mace developed invisible speed with Vapaad, that he used to beat the ever-loving crap out of the monster Kar Vastor, and after an extremely brutal fight, had nearly defeated the Lor Pelek.

Mace's speed was sufficiently developed after Dantooine; that when he broke into a bunker fill of dozens and dozens of machine gun-wielding Balawai Militiamen, who themselves admitted that they knew Mace would be fast enough to mow down most them before dying. (These men had gun-turrets and mutliple firing apparatuses directly fixed on an exhausted Windu from the front, when he entered the bunker.)

On Haruun Kal, Mace had been exhausted, injured, had low mental-morale and was utterly broken-hearted due to his Padawan's descent into madness.

After developing his speed on Dantooine and Haruun Kal, it is partially this which is what gave him what he needed to topple Sidious in a duel, whereas other less-developed Jedi Masters were destroyed before the Dark Lord.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Dantooine was [B]after the initial conflicts on Geonosis. The Jedi did improve over time in their Force and combative abilities.

Two months after Dantooine, Mace developed invisible speed with Vapaad, that he used to beat the ever-loving crap out of the monster Kar Vastor, and after an extremely brutal fight, had nearly defeated the Lor Pelek.

Mace's speed was sufficiently developed after Dantooine; that when he broke into a bunker fill of dozens and dozens of machine gun-wielding Balawai Militiamen, who themselves admitted that they knew Mace would be fast enough to mow down most them before dying. (These men had gun-turrets and mutliple firing apparatuses directly fixed on an exhausted Windu from the front, when he entered the bunker.)

On Haruun Kal, Mace had been exhausted, injured, had low mental-morale and was utterly broken-hearted due to his Padawan's descent into madness.

After developing his speed on Dantooine and Haruun Kal, it is partially this which is what gave him what he needed to topple Sidious in a duel, whereas other less-developed Jedi Masters were destroyed before the Dark Lord. [/B]

Originally posted by Rookwood
Dantooine was [B]after the initial conflicts on Geonosis. The Jedi did improve over time in their Force and combative abilities.

Two months after Dantooine, Mace developed invisible speed with Vapaad, that he used to beat the ever-loving crap out of the monster Kar Vastor, and after an extremely brutal fight, had nearly defeated the Lor Pelek.

Mace's speed was sufficiently developed after Dantooine; that when he broke into a bunker fill of dozens and dozens of machine gun-wielding Balawai Militiamen, who themselves admitted that they knew Mace would be fast enough to mow down most them before dying. (These men had gun-turrets and mutliple firing apparatuses directly fixed on an exhausted Windu from the front, when he entered the bunker.)

On Haruun Kal, Mace had been exhausted, injured, had low mental-morale and was utterly broken-hearted due to his Padawan's descent into madness.

After developing his speed on Dantooine and Haruun Kal, it is partially this which is what gave him what he needed to topple Sidious in a duel, whereas other less-developed Jedi Masters were destroyed before the Dark Lord. [/B]

Yeah I've decided not to take Dave Filoni's comments as absolute canon.

I just don't like the comparison from what Mace did on Dantooine and Dooku getting captured by pirates in the new series,(which people have done in Mace vs Dooku threads in the past) because Mace won't be doing what he did on Dantooine in the new CW series. That's been made clear. And obviously Dooku wouldn't have been captured by a few pirates in the CWMini series.

Also Jedi's have moments of oneness with the Force where they achieve feats they wouldn't/couldn't normally do. So that could explain the Inconsistency between Mace on Geonosis and Mace on Dantooine.

But I'm not sure Mace's speed radically increased during the CW. Mace beat Sidious due to Vapaad and Shatterpoint, not because he himself got a boost in speed during the CW.

Super speed was always an inherent part of Vapaad and not something Extra he just developed after AOTC.

Actually, you have the right idea partially - but you've cut the logic up and diced it around a bit.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah I've decided not to take Dave Filoni's comments as absolute canon.
I just don't like the comparison from what Mace did on Dantooine and Dooku getting captured by pirates in the new series,(which people have done in Mace vs Dooku threads in the past) because Mace won't be doing what he did on Dantooine in the new CW series. That's been made clear. And obviously Dooku wouldn't have been captured by a few pirates in the CWMini series

The CGI Miniseries is Retarded.

It's obvious it's designed mostly for kids and tuned-down intellectually so that they can keep up with it.

I agree about that part - I watched it with a friend when that episode came out, and he about had a fit when Dooku was captured, and afterwards he abruptly stopped watching that series.

(I did too.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Jedi's have moments of oneness with the Force where they achieve feats they wouldn't/couldn't normally do. So that could explain the Inconsistency between Mace on Geonosis and Mace on Dantooine.

No, remember and keep in mind that Dantooine came after Geonosis. Just because he can't do something before, doesn't mean he can't do it later when his skill has grown.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But I'm not sure Mace's speed radically increased during the CW.

Probably not radically - and I'm sure it was very likely due to Vapaad, which was stated to have increased speed in a somewhat unique way; this was during the years when Mace was developing it for his eventual confrontation with the hidden Sith lord.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace beat Sidious due to Vapaad and Shatterpoint, not because he himself got a boost in speed during the CW.

The speed was likely an effect of Vapaad, and so yes, he beat Sidious due to Vapaad and the Shatterpoint technique - but also because of the Vapaad-induced speed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Super speed was always an inherent part of Vapaad and not something Extra he just developed after AOTC.

If you're referring to him not having this speed on Geonosis, it was very likely because he had not developed the speed-aspect of Vapaad to fruition at this point - and after Geonosis many of the Vapaad techniques began to manifest and develop assertively over time.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Actually, you have the right idea partially - but you've cut the logic up and diced it around a bit.

The CGI Miniseries is Retarded.

It's obvious it's designed mostly for kids and tuned-down intellectually so that they can keep up with it.

I agree about that part - I watched it with a friend when that episode came out, and he about had a fit when Dooku was captured, and afterwards he abruptly stopped watching that series.

(I did too.)

No, remember and keep in mind that Dantooine came after Geonosis. Just because he can't do something before, doesn't mean he can't do it later when his skill has grown.

Probably not radically - and I'm sure it was very likely due to Vapaad, which was stated to have increased speed in a somewhat unique way; this was during the years when Mace was developing it for his eventual confrontation with the hidden Sith lord.

The speed was likely an effect of Vapaad, and so yes, he beat Sidious due to Vapaad and the Shatterpoint technique - but also because of the Vapaad-induced speed.

If you're referring to him not having this speed on Geonosis, it was very likely because he had not developed the speed-aspect of Vapaad to fruition at this point - and after Geonosis many of the Vapaad techniques began to manifest and develop assertively over time.

I see A LOT of assumptions and speculation here.

By all accounts Vapaad was fully developed long before AOTC. The only major change to Mace's abilities after AOTC was during Shatterpoint when he learned to stop fearing the darkness.

And you seem to be making a lot of excuses for Mace's performance on Geonosis.

It's an Inconsistency due to one reason only. That force powers are portrayed differently in different mediums. That's it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
By all accounts Vapaad was fully[/i developed long before AOTC.

“Long befroe AotC”....so as of TMP?

I'm genuinely curious about that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's an Inconsistency due to one reason only. That force powers are portrayed differently in different mediums. That's it.

Regardless, if what you’re saying is true, then surely you’d agree it is retarded to ***** about “exaggeration” of some of these mediums, since numerous characters originate in Video Games, Comics etc.