Janemba vs. Super Buu (only)

Originally posted by Galan007

Never heard that argument, but frankly, it makes no sense at all. I agree that SSJ3 Gotenks was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Base form Gotenks, though? No way in hell.

Thus Pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks is already stronger than Goku. After the first successful SSJ fusion Piccolo is impressed with their power but has speed concerns with Gotenks which is quickly quelled. And when he goes on to fight Boo his only concern was the fusion time and not his power. Remember Piccolo has Kami's keen sense of ki detection and after seeing SSJ3 Goku in action Piccolo would know if Gotenks couldn't handle Boo.
http://unixmanga.net/onlinereading/?image=Dragon%20Ball%20complete/DragonBall%20Vol%20040/Db40ch10/401009.jpg&server=nas.html

Plus the kids after training think they can handle Fat Boo who's roughly around SSJ3 Goku's power.

Picollo also has this belief that base Gotenks can handle Fat Boo shown here.

He hasn't seen Super Boo's power and is basing his optimism on power from Fat Boo. Goku admitted he may or mat not have beaten fat Boo while in SSJ3 so their powers are roughly equal. Since Picollo thinks base Gotenks has a chance against Boo that means base Gotenks is as strong, if not stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

He just vastly underrated the strength of Super Boo.

TLDR; Picollo calculates base Gotenks after training > Fat Boo who is =~ SSJ3 Goku.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Didn't he go all out on Kidbuu? Was a while ago, don't remember if he held back there or not.

Originally posted by Based
Goku told Piccolo that someone stronger than him would fight Boo.
http://unixmanga.net/onlinereading/?image=Dragon%20Ball%20complete/DragonBall%20Vol%20040/Db40ch04/400409.gif&server=nas.html

Thus Pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks is already stronger than Goku.

Originally posted by Based
After the first successful SSJ fusion Piccolo is impressed with their power but has speed concerns with Gotenks which is quickly quelled. And when he goes on to fight Boo his only concern was the fusion time and not his power. Remember Piccolo has Kami's keen sense of ki detection and after seeing SSJ3 Goku in action Piccolo would know if Gotenks couldn't handle Boo.
http://unixmanga.net/onlinereading/?image=Dragon%20Ball%20complete/DragonBall%20Vol%20040/Db40ch10/401009.jpg&server=nas.html

Originally posted by Based
Plus the kids after training think they can handle Fat Boo who's roughly around SSJ3 Goku's power.

Originally posted by Based
Picollo also has this belief that base Gotenks can handle Fat Boo shown here.

He hasn't seen Super Boo's power and is basing his optimism on power from Fat Boo. Goku admitted he may or mat not have beaten fat Boo while in SSJ3 so their powers are roughly equal. Since Picollo thinks base Gotenks has a chance against Boo that means base Gotenks is as strong, if not stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

He just vastly underrated the strength of Super Boo.

Originally posted by Based
TLDR; Picollo calculates base Gotenks after training > Fat Boo who is =~ SSJ3 Goku.

Because per both Goku AND Vegeta, he (Goku) could have defeated Kid Buu "in an instant" if he could've accessed the full extent of his SSJ3 power:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14203391/420813.gif.html

And Per Supreme Kai, Kid Buu>>Fat Buu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14203389/420604.gif.html

ie. full power SSJ3 Goku>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.

In a nutshell, you are basing your stance that base Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku, on the opinion that Fat Buu=SSJ3 Goku. However, we know that if Goku would've powered up to max as a SSJ3, he could have annihilated Kid Buu without much effort-- therefore, he could have annihilated Fat Buu with even less effort.

That doesn't change the fact that SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku, though. He definitely is. However, base form Gotenks wouldn't even be comparable to SSJ3 Goku from what I've seen.

FYI...it was difficult for the Z fighters to read Buu power level so debating him is pointless.

Originally posted by carver9
FYI...it was difficult for the Z fighters to read Buu power level so debating him is pointless.

The argument is that base form Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku... Which is based on the opinion that Fat Buu=/>SSJ3 Goku. However, as the latter portion of my former post describes, that is not the case-- as both Goku and Vegeta agreed that as a powered up SSJ3, Goku would annihilate Kid Buu in an instant(which describes an effortless trouncing.) And as Supreme Kai had stated when Kid Buu first appeared, Fat Buu<<Kid Buu. Therefore, SSJ3 Goku(powered up)>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu. That right there pretty much debunks the aforementioned opinion regarding base form Gotenks, as it entirely alters the most integral portion of that 'equation'.

Furthermore, if the power level guide I posted is to be believed(and I've still yet to seen a legitimate reason why it wouldn't be canon), then SSJ3 Goku's PL=24 billion. SSJ Gotenks PL=4.6 billion. Base form Gotenks would be even weaker still. Here is my opinion based on what we know to be fact: Super Buu=/>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu. Base form & SSJ Gotenks would fall somewhere between SSJ3 Goku and Fat Buu. Maybe lower.

Originally posted by carver9
FYI...it was difficult for the Z fighters to read Buu power level so debating him is pointless.

Not really. Numers stopped being given after Frieza yet we can determine who's stronger than whom more often than not.

SSJ3 Goku was able to fight with Janemba for a bit before he realised J was too strong.

SSJ3 Gotenks was able to fight pretty evenly with Super Buu until Buu admitted he was just toying with Gotenks

Now we know that SSJ3 Gotenks is vastly superior to SSJ3 Goku yes? So it stands to reason that Super Buu (being much stronger than Gotenks and Goku) would be much stronger than a being that Goku was able to hold his own against for a while

Originally posted by Galan007

Well at that point, Goku didn't really know what their fused power would be, he was just guessing. After all, he hadn't even taught the kids how to fuse yet. 😉

...Yet we know that Gotenks could not have beaten Super Buu without accessing his full SSJ3 power-- and even with that degree of power, he was merely "close to" Super Buu's level:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14202695/411007.gif.html
Therefore, any statements regarding Gotenks' ability to defeat Super Buu as anything less than a SSJ3 can be written off as hyperbole, because we know he required power of that magnitude to truly contend with Super Buu.

Yes Gotenks would not come close to Super Boo without SSJ3. All the quotes talking about Boo's abilities is not Super Boo but Fat Boo. They had no measure of Super Boo's power so they compared him to Fat Boo. Obviously they were wrong but they believed that base Gotenks has a chance.

See above. The kids (especially when fused) tended to vastly overrate their abilities.

They admitted that Gohan is stronger than Gotenks, something that Gotenks himself would probably have an issue with.

I cannot follow this logic, as you are adding quite a bit of conjecture to the statements. Did Gotenks have a chance against Super Buu? Yes. However, he ONLY had a chance as a SSJ3 *see above*.

Super Boo has little to do with the main argument. Piccolo sensed the power of base Gotenks and concluded he had a chance. He's basing his chances on SSJ3 Goku or Fat Boo. He vastly underestimated SUper Boo. Yes he needs SSJ3 to compete with Super Boo but Piccolo concluded that base Gotenks is nearly if not stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

If SSJ3 Goku fought Super Boo he's lose in 2 seconds.

Per Goku's own statements, he never accessed the full extent of his SSJ3 power against Fat Buu. Despite Goku leaving it up to Piccolo's imagination if he could have beaten Fat Buu when going all out, it was made blatantly evident later in the story that he could have. Why?

Because per both Goku AND Vegeta, he (Goku) could have defeated Kid Buu "in an instant" if he could've accessed the full extent of his SSJ3 power:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14203391/420813.gif.html

And Per Supreme Kai, Kid Buu>>Fat Buu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14203389/420604.gif.html

ie. full power SSJ3 Goku>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.

Not necessarily. Throughout the entire series, the Z fighters have the ability to charge their attacks to be much stronger than their actual power levels. When Raditz fought Goku and Piccolo he was surprised that their ki attacks neared a power level of 1000 despite their actual power levels being in the 300s. If Goku uses his full power and uses a ki attack which you have to do in order to completely kill Boo then a full powered kamehameha was deemed enough to wipe out Boo. It doesn't necessarily make Goku on the same level as Kid Boo.

In a nutshell, you are basing your stance that base Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku, on the opinion that Fat Buu=SSJ3 Goku. However, we know that if Goku would've powered up to max as a SSJ3, he could have annihilated Kid Buu without much effort-- therefore, he could have annihilated Fat Buu with even less effort.

That's implying there's a good power differential between Kid Boo and Fat Boo. There isn't. The battle with Good Boo vs Kid Boo at series end is irrelevant if you want to bring it up.

That doesn't change the fact that SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku, though. He definitely is. However, base form Gotenks wouldn't even be comparable to SSJ3 Goku from what I've seen. [/B]

SSJ Gotenks before training was already superior to SSJ3 Goku. It's not absurd to think that with training that Gotenks surpassed him in his base form.

Originally posted by carver9
FYI...it was difficult for the Z fighters to read Buu power level so debating him is pointless.

Originally posted by Based
No he didn't teach them the technique however he spent some time learning about it and he decided it was sufficient to beat Boo.

ie. Goku was wrong. :/

Originally posted by Based
They had no measure of Super Boo's power so they compared him to Fat Boo.

However, even if you want to assume that Piccolo WAS using Fat Buu as a gauge, it still doesn't make base form Gotenks equal to SSJ3 Goku. Why? Because like I said earlier: SSJ3 Goku(full power)>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu. Canon.

Originally posted by Based
Super Boo has little to do with the main argument. Piccolo sensed the power of base Gotenks and concluded he had a chance. He's basing his chances on SSJ3 Goku or Fat Boo. He vastly underestimated SUper Boo. Yes he needs SSJ3 to compete with Super Boo but Piccolo concluded that base Gotenks is nearly if not stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Again: SSJ3 Goku(full power)>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.

Originally posted by Based
Not necessarily. Throughout the entire series, the Z fighters have the ability to charge their attacks to be much stronger than their actual power levels. When Raditz fought Goku and Piccolo he was surprised that their ki attacks neared a power level of 1000 despite their actual power levels being in the 300s. If Goku uses his full power and uses a ki attack which you have to do in order to completely kill Boo then a full powered kamehameha was deemed enough to wipe out Boo. It doesn't necessarily make Goku on the same level as Kid Boo.

Originally posted by Based
That's implying there's a good power differential between Kid Boo and Fat Boo. There isn't. The battle with Good Boo vs Kid Boo at series end is irrelevant if you want to bring it up.

SSJ Gotenks before training was already superior to SSJ3 Goku. It's not absurd to think that with training that Gotenks surpassed him in his base form.

Look, I get what you're saying; I do. However, your argument hinges on the notion that base Gotenks=Fat Buu=SSJ3 Goku-- yet we know with 100% certainty that SSJ3 Goku>>>Fat Buu, so your opinion is completely debunked in that regard.

Even disregarding goku's comment about Kid Buu. Didn't he say he held back against Fat Buu to give the others a shot to beat him?

Goku says that he never fully powered up as a SSJ3 while battling Fat Buu. He then says that he didn't think he could have beaten Fat Buu at full power-- however, that statement seemed very strange and open to interpretation, imo.

...Either way, we later learned that defeating Fat Buu would have been easily accomplished as a full power SSJ3, based on his statement regarding Kid Buu.

So Goku just says all kinds of shit then?

Also been meaning to ask, what made you venture to this section?

Boredom. 😛

Then go make some threads in the All vs, so we can get other comic guys to come on board.

The most likely conclusion to this battle is Buu absorbing Janemba. I'm guessing they didn't have prep time to know eachother before the fight started which will spell disaster for Janemba when he uses his sword to cut Buu up without knowing that while he's distracted, a limb will creep up and take him unless he can teleport in time before the process begins and I'm not sure if he can turn into tetris blocks once Buu's gum-like flesh sticks to him.

Not trying to necro-bump this thread, but I just recalled this scene and thought it helped solidify my former point that SSJ3 Goku>>Fat Buu...

-Goku-
"When I fought Fat Buu, I could have beaten him... But I wanted to give the kids something to do.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14410253/420711.gif.html