Which Movie Jedi/Sith can Peak Suit Vader defeat?

0:40-0:46 and 1:25-1:27 seems like Vader overpowers Kenobi in saber lock. Interesting observation is that Kenobi is actually on offensive most of the fight, while Vader mostly parries and dodges attacks and only by the end starts driving Kenobi back but sill nowhere near as aggressively as in RotS. Seems like Vader is showing off how he improved without trying hard. But to be honest at that point SW lacked styles and combat evolved since. We can't really speculate on that.

Mind you, it was still a choreographed fight with intent on who's doing what involved. It doesn't have the modern SW styles, but it very much has fighting styles.

Originally posted by Arhael
Book doesn't really say about what he mastered or didn't. However, each of his performances shows that he analyses a lot during combat, recognizes styles of others and ALWAYS finds a way to outskill each of his opponents.
For example, here he demonstrates his mastery of Makashi:
"his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision".

He's definitely well versed in multiple forms. He's proven that. My point is that unlike Kenobi, Dooku, Skywalker or Windu, he's not been noted to be particularly exceptional in any of the forms as far as I recall.

Originally posted by Arhael
Here it shows that he fights flawlessly: "Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."

The way his combat is portrayed, I don't see any room for improvement at all.

Imho considering how powerful he is, Vader really shouldn't be that difficult a Saber fight for him. He should easily be Mace Windu level in Sabers IF he had Mastered Juyo, considering the amount of Force Power at his disposal.

In TFUII he couldn't actually overpower Vader in Sabers. The reason given in the novel was that Vader was ready for him this time.

Then there's the dark side ending of TFUI where Sidious beats him in Sabers with ridiculous ease. I know it's not canon, but the dark side ending was coming to him in the novel as possible futures according to the choices he made.

Mastery of fencing in SW may be to do with how well an individual is applying the Force to use those fencing techniques.

Originally posted by Arhael
"The Master" indeed doesn't mean much. Cin Dralic mastered all the Forms, yet, he didn't have the skill to apply them effectively during real combat.

Getting tooled by Anakin isn't exactly a bad thing. Considering Anakin was as skilled as Kenobi but a lot stronger.

Originally posted by Arhael
In nearly every case outcome depends on something other than saber skill, if both opponents are properly trained and experienced. So I hope you now see why I give so little weight to pure fencing skill as it is easy to master and is rarely a deciding factor.

Kicks and close combat skills are definitely a big factor in Saber fights. As is their power in the Force (obviously).

I just think for someone as powerful as Marek to constantly struggle against noteworthy opponents in Sabers, something's obviously still lacking.

Let's not forget Shaak Ti actually beat (or at least stalemated) Glen in Sabers. He had to use his exceptional Force TK powers to stop her killing him.

I know he became more powerful since, but why does he need to be so Uber Powerful to beat Shaak Ti in a Saber match?? So like I said, to me it seems as though something is lacking there in his skills.

Originally posted by Arhael
0:40-0:46 and 1:25-1:27 seems like Vader overpowers Kenobi in saber lock. Interesting observation is that Kenobi is actually on offensive most of the fight, while Vader mostly parries and dodges attacks and only by the end starts driving Kenobi back but sill nowhere near as aggressively as in RotS. Seems like Vader is showing off how he improved without trying hard. But to be honest at that point SW lacked styles and combat evolved since. We can't really speculate on that.

I know if it was choreographed today it would be dome better, but Lucas in the audio commentary seems to basically say "It's canon. Except it.." LOL.

Vader wasn't Forcing him backwards anywhere near as much as ROTS Anakin was. And tbh Vader didn't seem superior. He still couldn't get past Obi-Wan's defenses until Obi-Wan let him. He wasn't getting in kicks or choking him like ROTS Anakin was. Heck who knows, if the fight had continued Obi-Wan might have still won!

Originally posted by Arhael
Elaborate, please.

Anakin didn't rely on mobility at all, his style lacked it. In CW and RotS Anakin didn't dodge a single attack and blocked everything instead. All he did is slowly walked towards Dooku, while all Dooku could do is move backwards and put entire effort into defence and dodging. Just wondering, if Dooku's better mobility didn't give him advantage against Anakin, how will it give against Vader?

Yes I think a prime example of Dooku's great mobility is how he kicked Anakin from behind while concentrating on Obi-Wan. And it was one Uber kick as well.

And I personally think ROTS Anakin is a more dangerous combatant than Vader (in Sabers at least).

IIRC GL stated thatt Vader wasn't his old self in saber combat. Don't have the exact quote though.

Originally posted by Arhael
Book doesn't really say about what he mastered or didn't. However, each of his performances shows that he analyses a lot during combat, recognizes styles of others and ALWAYS finds a way to outskill each of his opponents.
For example, here he demonstrates his mastery of Makashi:
"his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision".

Here it shows that he fights flawlessly: "Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."

The way his combat is portrayed, I don't see any room for improvement at all.

"The Master" indeed doesn't mean much. Cin Dralic mastered all the Forms, yet, he didn't have the skill to apply them effectively during real combat. In book alone Marek trained combat a lot, fought other Force users and it says that he dueled Vader many times before. In fight with Vader he didn't display any signs of weakness, lack of skill or any mistakes that would allow Vader to take advantage. On opposite Marek constantly analized situation and surroundings, which shows that he is well trained and experienced combatant, as I said his performance is flawless.

True. I think we are on different wave. 🙂 For me skill is mastery of techniques and how to utilize them effectively. The rest is determined as you said by natural talents.
Because of greater power Marek's saber prowess is above either Maul and Dooku. However, it still doesn't mean that he would outskill either of them. Anakin learned everything Kenobi knew, sparred with him 1000s hours and mastered his own style. Yet, both Kenobi and Dooku could keep up with him by fighting defensively.
Fights involve far more things than just saber skill. Surroundings, positional advantage, style specifics, offensive Force use, unarmed combat skills, stamina, various circumstances and state of mind.
Qui-Gon lost to Maul because he got tired and confined space prevented him from using main advantage of his style.
Dooku outskilled Kenobi because his superior power allowed him to win saber lock contest.
Kenobi could fight both Maul and Opress because Jarkai is the best option against multiple opponents and he is good at kicking.
Dooku defeated so many characters just by Force handling them.
Anakin defeated Dooku with grappling technique.
According to RotS novel Sidious had fear of falling out of window and redirected part of his power to root himself in place, which allowed Windu to win, in film Windu won by kick.
Kenobi defeated Anakin because of positional advantage.
Marek and Vader fought evenly, however, Marek won psychological battle, he affected Vader's performance with Dun Moch and on top of that got enraged, which allowed him to overpower Vader.

In nearly every case outcome depends on something other than saber skill, if both opponents are properly trained and experienced. So I hope you now see why I give so little weight to pure fencing skill as it is easy to master and is rarely a deciding factor.

YouTube video
0:40-0:46 and 1:25-1:27 seems like Vader overpowers Kenobi in saber lock. Interesting observation is that Kenobi is actually on offensive most of the fight, while Vader mostly parries and dodges attacks and only by the end starts driving Kenobi back but sill nowhere near as aggressively as in RotS. Seems like Vader is showing off how he improved without trying hard. But to be honest at that point SW lacked styles and combat evolved since. We can't really speculate on that.

Elaborate, please.

Anakin didn't rely on mobility at all, his style lacked it. In CW and RotS Anakin didn't dodge a single attack and blocked everything instead. All he did is slowly walked towards Dooku, while all Dooku could do is move backwards and put entire effort into defence and dodging. Just wondering, if Dooku's better mobility didn't give him advantage against Anakin, how will it give against Vader?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
IIRC GL stated thatt Vader wasn't his old self in saber combat. Don't have the exact quote though.

He definitely said he wasn't as agile, but that's just part of sabers.

He's definitely well versed in multiple forms. He's proven that. My point is that unlike Kenobi, Dooku, Skywalker or Windu, he's not been noted to be particularly exceptional in any of the forms as far as I recall.

Imho considering how powerful he is, Vader really shouldn't be that difficult a Saber fight for him. He should easily be Mace Windu level in Sabers IF he had Mastered Juyo, considering the amount of Force Power at his disposal.

In TFUII he couldn't actually overpower Vader in Sabers. The reason given in the novel was that Vader was ready for him this time.

Then there's the dark side ending of TFUI where Sidious beats him in Sabers with ridiculous ease. I know it's not canon, but the dark side ending was coming to him in the novel as possible futures according to the choices he made.

Vader shouldn't be difficult?
I will point out that Vader is still chosen one and still has the same midichlorian count despite his injuries and bad health in general, also, his suit was enhanced with Sith alchemy.

Yoda was very old and his body was very weak, he couldn't even walk properly. He couldn't give strong attacks because of his very small weight as well as lack of physical strength. Because of small height he had to jump every time he attacked. His hands were much shorter and even his lightsaber was short reach. Speed is the only Yoda's advantage.
Yet, you praise Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda, while lowball Marek for going toe to toe with Vader saying that strength is the only Vader's advantage". That's exact double standard that Forced me to argue here.

There was no duel in darkside ending. Palpatine blocked a single attack and struck him down with lightning. I have three possible explanations to that. First is that he was tired, in lightside version only desire to save Kota and rebels gave him strength to resist lightning.
Another is that Marek was empowered by hatered towards Vader. With Vader's death emotion that empowered him was gone.
Also, Palpatine mind dominated him, only in lightside version Marek resisted his influence with help of Bail Organa, same way Palpatine tooled darkside Luke.

Getting tooled by Anakin isn't exactly a bad thing. Considering Anakin was as skilled as Kenobizż but a lot stronger.

I just think for someone as powerful as Marek to constantly struggle against noteworthy opponents in Sabers, something's obviously still lacking.

Let's not forget Shaak Ti actually beat (or at least stalemated) Glen in Sabers. He had to use his exceptional Force TK powers to stop her killing him.

I know he became more powerful since, but why does he need to be so Uber Powerful to beat Shaak Ti in a Saber match?? So like I said, to me it seems as though something is lacking there in his skills.

Shaak Ti weak?
How many Jedi gave explosion on death? None. It implies that she did have some insane power in her, likely above even Marek because of attunment with surrounding nature. And who said that she is weak with lightsaber? Also, imho her agility and Ataru allowed her to fight better on sarlacc with uneven and "treacherous" surface. In any case even Vader said that Marek would need full power of the darkside to defeat her.

If characters are mostly unknown, why there is need to assume they are weak? Windu struggled against unknown characters in other books. Even FotJ Luke struggled with a lot of random Force users.

Vader wasn't Forcing him backwards anywhere near as much as ROTS Anakin was. And tbh Vader didn't seem superior. He still couldn't get past Obi-Wan's defenses until Obi-Wan let him. He wasn't getting in kicks or choking him like ROTS Anakin was. Heck who knows, if the fight had continued Obi-Wan might have still won!

Yes I think a prime example of Dooku's great mobility is how he kicked Anakin from behind while concentrating on Obi-Wan. And it was one Uber kick as well.

Mind you, it was still a choreographed fight with intent on who's doing what involved. It doesn't have the modern SW styles, but it very much has fighting styles.

Anakin used the Djem So form which would be difficult to use in a suit due to the requirement of strength and free mobility. As Marek demonstrated, there is more to fighting than using lightsaber combat. Like Vader, he used TK often

Originally posted by Arhael
But who would point it out? Jedi inspire each other, Windu and Yoda praised Kenobi, while Vader ordered Marek around and threatened.

Vader shouldn't be difficult?
I will point out that Vader is still chosen one and still has the same midichlorian count despite his injuries and bad health in general, also, his suit was enhanced with Sith alchemy.

Yoda was very old and his body was very weak, he couldn't even walk properly. He couldn't give strong attacks because of his very small weight as well as lack of physical strength. Because of small height he had to jump every time he attacked. His hands were much shorter and even his lightsaber was short reach. Speed is the only Yoda's advantage.
Yet, you praise Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda, while lowball Marek for going toe to toe with Vader saying that strength is the only Vader's advantage". That's exact double standard that Forced me to argue here.

There was no duel in darkside ending. Palpatine blocked a single attack and struck him down with lightning. I have three possible explanations to that. First is that he was tired, in lightside version only desire to save Kota and rebels gave him strength to resist lightning.
Another is that Marek was empowered by hatered towards Vader. With Vader's death emotion that empowered him was gone.
Also, Palpatine mind dominated him, only in lightside version Marek resisted his influence with help of Bail Organa, same way Palpatine tooled darkside Luke.

Indeed, canonically Anakin was twice more powerful than even Sidious.
However, we are not discussing TOR, where Exile+Scourge<<<<Nyriss<<<<<<<<<<Revan<<<<Vitiate.
As I said superior power doesn't make them much faster. Even powerful Jedi can be outskilled by a Manalorian, assassin or Yuzhan Vong. Cin Dralic had complete fencing mastery, yet, he didn't have real combat experience of fighting real Sith like Kenobi.

Kota was looking for a fight with Vader himself and was dissapointed, when Marek came instead. If he was such a weak opponent, where would that confidence come from? Moreover, apart from resisting Marek's TK(his strongest advantage) he deflected his lightning with bare hand. Do you recall anyone else apart from Yoda and Dooku doing it?

Shaak Ti weak?
How many Jedi gave explosion on death? None. It implies that she did have some insane power in her, likely above even Marek because of attunment with surrounding nature. And who said that she is weak with lightsaber? Also, imho her agility and Ataru allowed her to fight better on sarlacc with uneven and "treacherous" surface. In any case even Vader said that Marek would need full power of the darkside to defeat her.

If characters are mostly unknown, why there is need to assume they are weak? Windu struggled against unknown characters in other books. Even FotJ Luke struggled with a lot of random Force users.

True. But does it really look like Vader tried to overwhelm Kenobi like in RotS? Vader didn't need to rush to kill Kenobi, he demonstrated that he is master of his emotions, not other way around like before.
As I said Kenobi was attacking most of the time, while Vader kept talking instead to show off.

And Anakin at that point was restraining himself in presence of Kenobi. In 1x1 Dooku didn't land a single kick on Anakin even in CW. Still I accept that Dooku might kick Vader but would it affect him much? Vader tanked even Marek's Force blast compared to "force of small explosion".

I know. 🙂 I meant SW styles. Specifically that Kenobi fought offensively but in newer films he adopted defensive style.

👆 👆 👆 👆 👆 👆

Shaak Ti weak?
How many Jedi gave explosion on death? None. It implies that she did have some insane power in her, likely above even Marek because of attunment with surrounding nature. And who said that she is weak with lightsaber? Also, imho her agility and Ataru allowed her to fight better on sarlacc with uneven and "treacherous" surface. In any case even Vader said that Marek would need full power of the darkside to defeat her.

Added to this: Shaak Ti fought Anakin/Vader in the Jedi temple, and managed to escape and fight clear.

That's heck of impressive. Cin Drallig was defeated one-armed, but she managed to fight her way past him.

Originally posted by Q99
Added to this: Shaak Ti fought Anakin/Vader in the Jedi temple, and managed to escape and fight clear.

That's heck of impressive. Cin Drallig was defeated one-armed, but she managed to fight her way past him.

How do you know this?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
How do you know this?

The scene has never been directly shown, but the event was mentioned in the Force Unleashed's databank entries.

To quote Wookiepedia (yea, I know, not always a good source, but convenient):

"As the 501st Legion of the Grand Army of the Republic, led by Darth Vader, descended on the Temple, Ti rallied her fellow Jedi in an attempt to repulse the Sith and his minions. At one point Ti engaged Vader in a fierce duel. Despite her great skill as a warrior she was unable to defeat him. However, Ti did escape after managing to disorientate Vader. While fighting valiantly alongside her peers, Ti quickly realized that she could not prevent the fall of the Temple."

Originally posted by Arhael
But who would point it out? Jedi inspire each other, Windu and Yoda praised Kenobi, while Vader ordered Marek around and threatened.

Well it could easily be mentioned in a sourcebook. I'm not sure if it has been, but I've not heard anything. Vader could also point it out, He does praise his abilities sometimes.

But I'm not sure why we should just assume he's completely mastered Juyo unless that's confirmed for us somewhere.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vader shouldn't be difficult?
I will point out that Vader is still chosen one and still has the same midichlorian count despite his injuries and bad health in general, also, his suit was enhanced with Sith alchemy.

Yoda was very old and his body was very weak, he couldn't even walk properly. He couldn't give strong attacks because of his very small weight as well as lack of physical strength. Because of small height he had to jump every time he attacked. His hands were much shorter and even his lightsaber was short reach. Speed is the only Yoda's advantage.
Yet, you praise Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda, while lowball Marek for going toe to toe with Vader saying that strength is the only Vader's advantage". That's exact double standard that Forced me to argue here..

I praise Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda because we know how formidable Yoda is. According to the script he battered Sidious in the Saber match. And at least matched him in their Force contest.

Vader on the other hand has been canonically confirmed by Lucas to be 80% as powerful as Sidious. Lucas also states in the ESB Audio commentary that Vader has "lost a lot of power in the force," comparing ESB Vader to pre-injury Anakin.

According to Tempest a recent issue of Insider also claimed Yoda may be most skilled Saber duelist in the history of the Jedi.

So of course I will give more credit to Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda, than Galen for stalemating Vader in Sabers (TFUII) or defeating him with great difficulty (TFUI).

Originally posted by Arhael

Kota was looking for a fight with Vader himself and was dissapointed, when Marek came instead. If he was such a weak opponent, where would that confidence come from? Moreover, apart from resisting Marek's TK(his strongest advantage) he deflected his lightning with bare hand. Do you recall anyone else apart from Yoda and Dooku doing it?

That's true. According to the novel Kota did deflect Galen's force attacks.

I never said he was weak.

Originally posted by Arhael
Shaak Ti weak?
How many Jedi gave explosion on death? None. It implies that she did have some insane power in her, likely above even Marek because of attunment with surrounding nature. And who said that she is weak with lightsaber? Also, imho her agility and Ataru allowed her to fight better on sarlacc with uneven and "treacherous" surface. In any case even Vader said that Marek would need full power of the darkside to defeat her.

If characters are mostly unknown, why there is need to assume they are weak? Windu struggled against unknown characters in other books. Even FotJ Luke struggled with a lot of random Force users.

I never said Shaak Ti was weak either.

I think you've misunderstood my point, which is that Galen has struggled with every noteworthy opponent he's faced in Sabers.

If he was really Zonakin, Windu, Sidious level in Sabers, we really should have seen a few Saber Stomps Imho.

Originally posted by Arhael
True. But does it really look like Vader tried to overwhelm Kenobi like in RotS? Vader didn't need to rush to kill Kenobi, he demonstrated that he is master of his emotions, not other way around like before.
As I said Kenobi was attacking most of the time, while Vader kept talking instead to show off.

Actually yes it did look like he was trying to overwhelm Kenobi. The proof is the second Obi-Wan put his guard down he cut him down.

I think he was just a more measured fighter than Sith Anakin, and focused his anger much better by this point.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Anakin at that point was restraining himself in presence of Kenobi. In 1x1 Dooku didn't land a single kick on Anakin even in CW. Still I accept that Dooku might kick Vader but would it affect him much? Vader tanked even Marek's Force blast compared to "force of small explosion".

I know Anakin was more restrained, but we're talking about mobility here, and I gave an example of Dooku's mobility. Parrying back Kenobi and Anakin's blades at the same time, then force choking Obi-Wan with one hand, whilst kicking Anakin from behind was a great example of mobility.

As for a kick that sent ROTS Anakin flying across the room, yes I do think it would affect Vader. Padawan Luke kicked Vader onto his rear in ROTJ. Vader braced for Marek's force attack. Kick's mid-saber fight tend to catch opponents off-guard.

Well it could easily be mentioned in a sourcebook. I'm not sure if it has been, but I've not heard anything. Vader could also point it out, He does praise his abilities sometimes.

But I'm not sure why we should just assume he's completely mastered Juyo unless that's confirmed for us somewhere.

Also, info in books is subject to author's interpretation and opinion. For example, complete encyclopaedia states that Marek "ultimately was no match for Palpatine's power", however, that's not what happened in the book.

According to the script he battered Sidious in the Saber match. And at least matched him in their Force contest.

As for power Yoda failed to absorb his lightning at beginning. On platforms Sidious was throwing multiple platforms, while Yoda mostly dodged. Imho Yoda used Force more wisely conserving energy, which allowed him to stalemate Sidious at the end.

Vader on the other hand has been canonically confirmed by Lucas to be 80% as powerful as Sidious. Lucas also states in the ESB Audio commentary that Vader has "lost a lot of power in the force," comparing ESB Vader to pre-injury Anakin.

"The Force is the energy of the living. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. It's all right to have a mechanical part or two-an implant, a replacement foot. But for true Mastery in the Force, light side or dark side, you have to be mostly organic. I'm not, and so the greatest, the most significant powers, I can never learn."

Limiya stated that greatest powers cannot be learned, however, she never said that her regular powers got weaker.

"Nelani tried again, this time with the bust of the Bothan. It reached a halfway point between her and Lumiya, but the older woman reached out with her own free hand and the bust stopped in midair. Now it strained forward toward her; a moment later, it crept back through the air toward Nelani. It was a piece in a game of push-of-war between the women, and neither was winning.
The strain showed in Lumiya's voice, causing it to hoarsen.
...
Lumiya cast a sideways glance at the bust hovering between her and Nelani. It was beginning to creep back toward her, and the strain of keeping it at bay was showing on her face.
...
Lumiya closed her eyes and strained, but the bust still moved toward her.
...
Her last words were little more than a gasp, and her control slipped at that point."

Her Force struggle demonstrates that she is not weak in the Force, however, she gets exhausted faster than normal Force users. She was still capable to fight Mara and Luke on even terms. Even angered Luke only drove her back instead of outright stomping.

I think the way Lucas portrayed the Force is that greater power gives greater Force reserves, not stronger Force attacks. And I can support this idea with loads and loads of evidence.
Most notable one is Kenobi stalemating Anakin's Force push.
Yoda was more powerful than Dooku, however, he couldn't simply disarm him like in case with Ventress.
Yoda stalemated Sidious but them having perfect equal Force potential would be way too big coincedence. They had equal Force mastery but Sidious as more powerful had larger Force reserves.

I, also, can give many examples of prime Luke struggling against inferior Force users as well as stalemating far more powerful ones to support this idea.

Characters like Yoda, Windu, Dooku and especially Kenobi demonstrated that it is possible to stalemate far more powerful users both in combat and Force.

Back to Vader. Even in TFU II the clone was nearly getting overwhelmed by Vader's TK but after some struggle was overpowering him. It supports the idea that Vader's TK is as strong as prior to losing body parts as he still has got the same medichlorian count. However, on entering a Force contest he gets exhausted very fast and loses control.

According to Tempest a recent issue of Insider also claimed Yoda may be most skilled Saber duelist in the history of the Jedi.

If he was really Zonakin, Windu, Sidious level in Sabers, we really should have seen a few Saber Stomps Imho.

Also, I will refer to interpretation above that even with suprerior power he still needs to outskill other inferior characters that also achieved mastery in Force and combat or at least fight them until they get exhausted.

Actually yes it did look like he was trying to overwhelm Kenobi. The proof is the second Obi-Wan put his guard down he cut him down.

Are you serious ? really ? which movie ?
Real simple Real short, NONE .

I was just reading this thread.
And I still say NONE.....Somebody need to bring this hype down.

To over look Mace and say he's just all sabers is BS.
Vader's TK is hyped just as saying the Cowboys are gonna win every game
including the Super Bowl.

Make sure you add the 501st w/Vader
BC if it was Vader alone against the Jedi Order,Order 66 wouldn't have came to pass.
He was OK when he was all human.

I still say the box on his chest (target )
The oxygen tank on his back (target )
A well timed or broken rhythym decapation.

or tire him out
make him use all his Force reserves w/everything I just said.
end of duel.
plus here's a bonus don't have to be Mace, I say any Jedi
(Hell) Boba Fett almost beat Vader.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sourcebooks are based on info provided by actual books, games and other material. The TFU book lacks such info, thus sourcebooks will not have it either.

Also, info in books is subject to author's interpretation and opinion. For example, complete encyclopaedia states that Marek "ultimately was no match for Palpatine's power", however, that's not what happened in the book.

Ok but there's still no quote anywhere that says Starkiller completely mastered Juyo. Although his combination of Soresu for defense and then using Juyo when an opportunity for attack comes is quite deadly Imo.

But it takes a long time to Master Juyo. You have to become a master of multiple other forms first. And then go on to learn and master Juyo.

And even if he was "A Master" of Juyo, I don't see how that would put him on the level of Mace or Dooku who are the Ultimate Masters of the forms they use.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, it is possible that he disarmed Sidious. They fought on platform, which gave Yoda advantage. Sidious couldn't move around and was statically staying in one place, while Yoda still could jump all over the place..

Tbh I'm not seeing where Sidious was disadvantaged. He wasn't jumping around when he was fighting Mace and had a good footing. Whilst little Yoda who has to jump around, was having to jump on the edges of the pod. Not ideal either.

Also it was Sidious who retreated to that position. So it was his own choice.

Originally posted by Arhael
True. However, it's rather vague statement.

I don't see how. He's given an exact figure. 80%. How can that be vague?

And he's said Vader has "Lost a lot of power in the force AND a lot of feasibility to become more powerful than the Emporer" ESB Audio commentary. So he's clearly put ROTS Anakin above Vader in 2 categories there. Power and Potential.

Originally posted by Arhael
Let me throw a few other canon examples.

Ok. But Lucas's words always hold higher in terms of canonicity.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lumiya - she was more machine than Vader.

"The Force is the energy of the living. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. It's all right to have a mechanical part or two-an implant, a replacement foot. But for true Mastery in the Force, light side or dark side, you have to be mostly organic. [b]I'm not, and so the greatest, the most significant powers, I can never learn."

Limiya stated that greatest powers cannot be learned, however, she never said that her regular powers got weaker.[/B]

Anakin says it himself in ROTS that he's like a composer gone deaf, or an artist gone blind. That's suggesting not just a small difference but a pretty large one.

And in your own quote it says "The Force is the energy of the living. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. "

So that's pretty clear it will effect your connection to the force as confirmed by Vader himself in the ROTS Novel.

Originally posted by Arhael
Is it canon source? In any case whatever skill he had, he still has got a lot of physical limitations to deal with. Vader is, also, one of the most skilled saber combatants, so Yoda is not above him in that regard.

It's in the Clone Wars Encyclopedia that Yoda has fully mastered every single form. And tbh it would be stupid any other way considering his age.

So yes Yoda is definitely more skilled than Vader. He's more skilled than anyone else in the mythos.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. He and Kenobi were chatting, until Luke showed up, which provoked Vader to cut conversation short. )
He was gonna kill Kenobi but he wasn't in a hurry.
"Last time we met I was nothing but the learner and now I am the Master". - According to Vader's opinion he improved since, not other way around. But you still can dismiss his opinion as a rant of an insane elder. 😄

What makes you think Vader could get past Obi Wan's Saber defenses when the younger and more powerful Anakin could not?!

I see no evidence that Vader was holding back.

Anakin never reached his potential before he had to have the Cybernetics, and Vader became a TK master after he calmed down a bit and gained more mastery of the Dark Side. Vader is ofeten considered weak and pathetic. If that isso, how had he survived all the way until episode VI? I still think that Vader is more powerful than people give him credit for. That is why I made this thread. If the thread was "Who could Mace Windu defeat?" the answer would be EVERYONE from a lot of people. Everyone thinks Mace is a god and would never lose. Vader prettymuch fights like Mace does in terms of aggressiveness, yet he is considered a joke.

He survived by the 501st
And no Mace is no god,just better than peak suit, pre suit , whatever suit. (my opinion )
Everything Darth Power has said about his Force potential.

We all said and agreed.
So how can this cyborg defeat any body stronger than he is without the 501st?
Saving his ass?
It's gonna take more than TK Mastery to stop any Master of the Force.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
He survived by the 501st
And no Mace is no god,just better than peak suit, pre suit , whatever suit. (my opinion )
Everything Darth Power has said about his Force potential.

We all said and agreed.
So how can this cyborg defeat any body stronger than he is without the 501st?
Saving his ass?
It's gonna take more than TK Mastery to stop any Master of the Force.