Movie Avengers vs. Movie and Book Twilight Characters.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Well, considering Twilight character's aren't that fast in a fight, he doesn't need to be.

Wrong:

"Jasper backed up a few more paces, his body tensing.
'Okay, Emmett - try to catch me.'
And I couldn't see Jasper anymore -..."

Later on:

"It looked like Jasper had no more substance than a ghost - any time it seemed Emmett's big hands had him for sure, Emmett's fingers clenched around nothing but air."

And when Jasper went to fight Alice:

"Jasper sprang, disappearing. Suddenly, he was on the other side of Alice. She didn't appear to have moved."

Keep in mind that Bella is watching this fight from a distance. The vamps are so fast that, to human eyes, they appear to be teleporting while sparring.

...
But wait, there's more:

"She was moving - I'd just been missing it, distracted by Jasper's attacks. She took a small step forward at the exact second Jasper's body flew through the spot where she'd jsut been standing."

And on to Jasper's and Edward's sparring match:

"Edward had closed in on Jasper now, and this fight was more even than either of the others....
They came at each other, again and again, neither one able to gain the advantage...
They moved too fast for me to really understand what they were doing."

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Twilight vampires aren't that strong that, considering that's hyperbole from a fallible character.

Granted that Edward is not God in that he can make mistakes and is not omniscient. However, to say his statement about vampires being thousands of times stronger than humans is hardly something you can call fallible. Edward is one of the most educated people on the planet and only Carlisle surpasses him in knowledge. Hardly something you can say is "fallible" when it comes from such a knowledgeable character. Hardly hyperbole.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I don't care what they're called by whom, feats are what matters, and if you want to go by statements, Emmett's (Who is explicitly stronger then Edward) strength in one arm is described as that of a cement truck going downhill at 60 mph. I'm not one of those guys who can pull calcs out of their ass, but I sincerely doubt that's 100+ tons.

There are so many things wrong with your logic is it painful.

1. That was Bella who was a newborn vampire and did not have almost a century of education under her belt: she is not qualified to make such statements. She was using a simile.

2. One arm, in a rotating motion does not even come close to constituting peak lifting power. Not sure why you'd equate that to 100+ tons.

3. The tree pushover feat is well above 200 tonne-force according to a white paper I found on the topic: there's your feat and that should end the discussion with no further derailment.

4. If you want the math:

p = momentum
p = m*v

m= mass
v = velocity

60 mph = 96.56 kmh = 965.6 mh

A concrete truck weighs 65,000-70,000 pounds. http://www.tx-taca.org/members/files/2011/07/Concrete-and-cement-faq.pdf

To be nice, 65,000 lbs = 29,484 kg

p = 28,469,750.4 kg/mh

Convert p to k (kinetic energy)=

k = (p^2)/2m

Again, m = 29,484 kg and p = 28,469,750.4 kg/mh

k = 13,745,195,106 joules (or is that kilojoules? I don't remember..I think it is just joules because kg were used for both the numerator and denominator).

Anyway, now convert to force:

Take your joules to convert to kilogram-force:

13,745,195,106 * 0.1019716213 = 1401619830 kgf

But we want that in tonnes.

1401619830 kgf/1000 = 1,401,620 kilonewtons or "tonne-force".

1,401,620 kilonewtons.

1,401,620 kilonewtons

1,401,620 kilonewtons

1,401,620 kilonewtons

You should not wonder why Bella shatters the boulder on which they were wrestling: that much force would certainly shatter a medium-size boulder.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
They're not that durable though,

That's hilariously trying to hard to gimp the vampires. They are more durable than surgical steel. Only vampire teeth and wolf teeth can harm them, if we go by the books. I'd say that high-velocity and high caliber rounds can harm them, as well. Good luck getting a vampire to hold still to get that shot.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Aro specifically said that humans have the capabilities to kill vampires, just that they're rarely utilized due to a vampire's strength and speed.

I agree, with this point. I think a high-velocity high caliber round would punch through them.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Bulletproof can mean anything, should we believe a vampire could shrug off a shotgun blast to the face, sure. Should we believe that a vampire would shrug off fire from a GAU-8 Avenger firing armor piercing rounds? I have seen nothing to suggest they could.

I take bullet-proof to mean, in the context of the characters and Meyer's knowledge, to mean any round that the average american can fire from a legally owned gun: non-military. I think the gun you used is a perfect example of a gun that should be able to punch through them. Somewhere between an armor-piercing round fired from an assault rifle and that gun would be their limit but that's obviously a huge gap to cover as far as pascals are concerned. This is based off the the various commentary from Bella about her dad possibly shooting Edward but to no avail.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Iron Man would be outside the effective range of any of the vampire's psychic abilities, since he would be, y'know, flying around bombarding them.

Edward's mind-reading abilities work within a couple of miles.

You also assume he will be magically starting in the air: they won't.

That would be like me giving Alice a 30 minute procog head start so the twivamps can come up with a plan to win. Not going to happen.

You also assume what those psychic project limits are when they are not clearly defined: bad form. You should not do that assuming, at all. Additionally, this is not an open field: this is Downtown Manhattan.

You also assume that any of Ironman's attacks will land against foes that can move so fast it seems like they can teleport. They can also hear much more acutely than the most accurate of human parabolic mics. It is extremely unlikely that Ironman will get the drop on any vampire while in the sky.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Iron Man soloes.

Ironman dies before he leaves the ground...as does every other avenger minus Thor and Hulk.

You have not shown the Ironman has the reaction speed to even talk to a vampire much less avoid a killing blow. I admit that his laser things should cut them in half, no problem, but any of his other rounds minus the anti-tank missile will do nothing to the vampires. You're also forgetting the effective range of those lasers: it will not be nearly as powerful at 2 miles out (I'd assume you'd want him to stay out of range of Edward's mind reading powers, right).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w9ulxvQS60

0:44, lol at them hurting him.

Iron Man soloes.

DDM, before I reply whenever I feel like replying, am I correct to believe that they have comic SHIELD's knowledge, as well as comic Tony's technical knowledge?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Anyway, now convert to force:

Take your joules to convert to kilogram-force:

13,745,195,106 * 0.1019716213 = 1401619830 kgf

But we want that in tonnes.

1401619830 kgf/1000 = 1,401,620 kilonewtons or "tonne-force".

Eh?

What are you doing here? There is no nice way to convert energy to force like this. It seems you are converting J/M to kgf, the problem is the units on 13,745,195,106 is the energy unit J not the force unit J/M.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
DDM, before I reply whenever I feel like replying, am I correct to believe that they have comic SHIELD's knowledge, as well as comic Tony's technical knowledge?

If it turns out to be too one-sided, I gave provisions for either side. I'll let the general consensus of the thread determine if it is too one-sided against the Avengers or the Twivamps.

But, it is Shield's 616 knowledge, no Tony Stark's. Tony is the only one, however, that knows that the vampires can only be killed by burning.

Originally posted by ares834
Eh?

What are you doing here? There is no nice way to convert energy to force like this. It seems you are converting J/M to kgf, the problem is the units on 13,745,195,106 is the energy unit J not the force unit J/M.

I double checked my work using an online conversation tool. I just got the conversation factor. It works just fine.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I double checked my work using an online conversation tool. I just got the conversation factor. It works just fine.

Then the conversion tool is wrong. You can't just convert between energy and force by multiplying it by a constant. Once again you are converting between J/M (aka N) and kgf.

Just think about it for a bit. A moving van isn't exerting a force on anything (other than the ground) it has to crash into something to exert its force. And depending on what it crashes into the force changes.

Edit: And can you show me this conversion tool?

I like how you, dadudemon specifically state in the opening post that Jasper's powers will work on the Hulk even though I doubt it would.

Also none of the Twivamps are even close to 616 quicksilver in speed. The guy has feats that are simply above any feats that the twivamps were shown to do. He can casually dodge lightning even as a child. He once patted down an entire crowd of people looking for a tiny badge a certain group was wearing. And none of them even knew he did it.

I like how you state nothing but vampire and werewolf teeth were shown to hurt vamps, when we already saw that fire can burn them and none of the head vampire specifically says Humans can hurt vampires which is one of the reasons why they aren't allowed to show themselves.

Also the twivamps are not super sonic. The werewolves, who were often depicted as fast in one case faster than a vampire, were often described as only being as fast as high speed motorcycles.

Hell when Jacob went on his run from everyone for months as nothing but a werewolf he didn't exactly make it to the other side of the world. I think he made it a couple thousand miles away in what took him months.

Also as to the Bella comments you seem to be forgetting she mentions being able to see them move they were just so quick that Bella had trouble following and processing what was going on.

She mentions after not being distracted by Jasper's attacks that she can tell that Alice is in fact moving. Not only was she able to see them move she was able to make out Alice taking a small step forward to avoid Jasper.

As for the match Thor going all out is going to mess some people up when he takes to the skies and starts unleashing a barrage of lightning and tornadoes on them all, never mind if he decides to unleash the Jottenhiem buster on them.

Originally posted by Newjak
I like how you, dadudemon specifically state in the opening post that Jasper's powers will work on the Hulk even though I doubt it would.

Also none of the Twivamps are even close to 616 quicksilver in speed. The guy has feats that are simply above any feats that the twivamps were shown to do. He can casually dodge lightning even as a child. He once patted down an entire crowd of people looking for a tiny badge a certain group was wearing. And none of them even knew he did it.

I like how you state nothing but vampire and werewolf teeth were shown to hurt vamps, when we already saw that fire can burn them and none of the head vampire specifically says Humans can hurt vampires which is one of the reasons why they aren't allowed to show themselves.

Also the twivamps are not super sonic. The werewolves, who were often depicted as fast in one case faster than a vampire, were often described as only being as fast as high speed motorcycles.

Hell when Jacob went on his run from everyone for months as nothing but a werewolf he didn't exactly make it to the other side of the world. I think he made it a couple thousand miles away in what took him months.

Also as to the Bella comments you seem to be forgetting she mentions being able to see them move they were just so quick that Bella had trouble following and processing what was going on.

She mentions after not being distracted by Jasper's attacks that she can tell that Alice is in fact moving. Not only was she able to see them move she was able to make out Alice taking a small step forward to avoid Jasper.

As for the match Thor going all out is going to mess some people up when he takes to the skies and starts unleashing a barrage of lightning and tornadoes on them all, never mind if he decides to unleash the Jottenhiem buster on them.

That's called gimping to direct the outcome.

LoL, nice. Someone not biased that has read or knows of the Twilight books.

Originally posted by Robtard
That's called gimping to direct the outcome.

LoL, nice. Someone not biased that has read or knows of the Twilight books.

A girl I was digging was reading them and wanted me to read them with her. I'm a pretty go with the flow type guy so it was cool they had some decent things in them but mostly were very disappointing. 😛

My impression of them was that they were obviously pretty powerful but not that powerful.

Originally posted by ares834
Then the conversion tool is wrong. You can't just convert between energy and force by multiplying it by a constant. Once again you are converting between J/M (aka N) and kgf.

It is right.

Joules can be converted to kilogram force meters. It is simply a way to get the "force" of that moving system in terms of a gravitational constant. That's what it would "feel" like if the truck collided: the kilogram-force exerted at that instant would "feel" like 13,745,197 kilonewtons. That's apt when applying it to the arm wrestling match.

I'm surprised you didn't correct my math. I forgot to multiply that by 9.80665 to get newtons.

"13,745,197 kilonewtons 1,401,620 tonne-force" was what I meant to put.

Originally posted by ares834
Just think about it for a bit. A moving van isn't exerting a force on anything (other than the ground) it has to crash into something to exert its force. And depending on what it crashes into the force changes.

Edit: And can you show me this conversion tool?

I don't need to think about it, at all: the conversion works just fine and it is commonly used to calculate the newtons exerted in crashes with collisions. However, they would use just newtons instead of kgf: I used KGF to make the unit have a more realistic "feel" because people can relate better to gravity than more abstract ideas of horizontal forces.

http://online.unitconverterpro.com/unit-conversion/convert-alpha/energy.html

Oh god math sperge.

Originally posted by Newjak
I like how you, dadudemon specifically state in the opening post that Jasper's powers will work on the Hulk even though I doubt it would.

It most likely would. There is no reason to assume Magical Vampire powers wouldn't work on Movie Hulk. Saying it wouldn't work is just as arbitrary as saying it would work. For this thread, I said it would work but gave it a very long "effective" time and a massive weakness. That was arbitrary, as well. I can just as well assume that the calming effect would immediately stop Hulk, calm him, and within seconds turn him into Banner. But I didn't.

My point was to make everyone's powers work in this thread not take powers away form anyone. This is why I gave Ironman 4 reloads of that laser thingy: it seems to be the best bet against the vampires.

Originally posted by Newjak
Also none of the Twivamps are even close to 616 quicksilver in speed. The guy has feats that are simply above any feats that the twivamps were shown to do. He can casually dodge lightning even as a child. He once patted down an entire crowd of people looking for a tiny badge a certain group was wearing. And none of them even knew he did it.

Incorrect: almost all of them are that fast. Edward commits a similar feat against Bella, in the book, when she has a note. He vanishes, ends up behind her, and has already read the note by the time Bella notices.

Granted, Edward is faster, but this is the general idea that all the vampires give off besides large heavy vamps like Emmett.

Originally posted by Newjak
I like how you state nothing but vampire and werewolf teeth were shown to hurt vamps, when we already saw that fire can burn them

You're forgetting something extremely important: the venom that basically makes up Vampire's blood is flammable. First, you have to tear them up before you can light them on fire. So, no, this point of yours is irrelevant. You can't burn them unless they are torn to pieces.

Originally posted by Newjak
and none of the head vampire specifically says Humans can hurt vampires which is one of the reasons why they aren't allowed to show themselves.

No, the reasons that they are not allowed to show themselves has nothing to do with them being afraid of humans: not even a little. Not even at tiny bit. If you were correct then why would they keep themselves a secret from the human world and enforce those laws for well over 2000 years? What you say makes no sense. It was just a form of control: an avenue by which they can exert power over the other vampires, kill them, and remain in power. Stephanie Meyers, herself, said that even if humans waged an all out war, a bomb might work but the vampire would have to hold still. That should be more than enough confirmation that vampires are more than fast enough to avoid nukes.

Originally posted by Newjak
Also the twivamps are not super sonic.

I can't speak to all of them because Edward is a very fast vampire. However, Edward is hypersonic. 😐 I would assume that most other vampires are at least supersonic because there is no way to assume that Edward is multiple times faster than other vampires.

To put things into perspective, Edward and outrun and catch a baseball, hit so hard that it sounds like thunder, that is described as moving like a meteor: another case for hypersonic on than the speed calculation I did for him.

Originally posted by Newjak
The werewolves, who were often depicted as fast in one case faster than a vampire, were often described as only being as fast as high speed motorcycles.

Laurant may have been a slower vampire because Bella said this:

"I couldn't imagine the wolves running faster than a vampire. When the Cullens ran, they all but turned invisible with speed."

Victoria, though she had a special ability, consistently evaded all of the werewolves on land. Also, Jacob said "faster than a motorcycle", not as fast. I think Jacob said, literally, hundreds of times better than a motorcycle. 😐

Edit - The wiki says that, too. So I am not going crazy.

Originally posted by Newjak
Hell when Jacob went on his run from everyone for months as nothing but a werewolf he didn't exactly make it to the other side of the world. I think he made it a couple thousand miles away in what took him months.

He didn't go on a "run", he went solo and roamed the northern portions of North America. You make it sound as thought he ran in a straight line the whole time and that's a massive miss-characterization of what actually took place.

Originally posted by Newjak
HellAlso as to the Bella comments you seem to be forgetting she mentions being able to see them move they were just so quick that Bella had trouble following and processing what was going on.

I'll let the words speak for themselves. Bella, multiple times, says they turn invisible and/or teleport. If Bella describes them disappearing, even from a distance while viewing them, that should be more than clear enough to show that they move too fast even when fighting for a human to be able to have any hope of going H2H with them.

Originally posted by Newjak
She mentions after not being distracted by Jasper's attacks that she can tell that Alice is in fact moving. Not only was she able to see them move she was able to make out Alice taking a small step forward to avoid Jasper.

Wrong: she was taking 2 steps. That does not mean that she actually saw Alice take those steps: only that she discerned that those steps were taken to avoid Jasper. If you need an example of what I mean:

http://youtu.be/nRIUAVurbN8?t=3m18s

We don't actually see Goku moving but we can tell he moved one or two steps to avoid the energy attacks. Remember, Jasper vanished into thin air when Emmett looked like he finally had a grasp of Jasper. That should more than prove my point that what you want Bella's words to mean and what actually happened in the book are different: what I said was correct.

Originally posted by Newjak
As for the match Thor going all out is going to mess some people up when he takes to the skies and starts unleashing a barrage of lightning and tornadoes on them all, never mind if he decides to unleash the Jottenhiem buster on them.

You mean those very slow moving tornadoes that took him a while to produce that even humans were able to resist on the ground?

Nah, that's not going to work. I think I agree that one of his lightning bolts should work on a twivamp but it will not come close to killing them: more like stun them like Kate's shock power.

Originally posted by Robtard
That's called gimping to direct the outcome.

LoL, nice. Someone not biased that has read or knows of the Twilight books.

Do you need some pom-poms, broski?

At least show some leg.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is right.

Joules can be converted to kilogram force meters.

Yes, but that's not what you are doing. You said earlier kgf (kilogram force) not kgf*m (kilogram force meters), kgf can be converted to newtons. However, with the conversion you did (and what the tool indicates) you get kgf*m which can not be converted into a unit of force through the use of a constant.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Do you need some pom-poms, broski?

At least show some leg.

Don't take your rage out on me cos someone else pwned your ass with book facts and I stated your obvious intentions in trying to force the outcome of the match, brah.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But, it is Shield's 616 knowledge, no Tony Stark's.

Well, FYI, SHIELD apparently knows how to make Tony's mind resistant to powerful telepaths, according to the wiki. I know jack all about comics, but if that can be replicated on the movie Avengers then lol.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It most likely would. There is no reason to assume Magical Vampire powers wouldn't work on Movie Hulk. Saying it wouldn't work is just as arbitrary as saying it would work. For this thread, I said it would work but gave it a very long "effective" time and a massive weakness. That was arbitrary, as well. I can just as well assume that the calming effect would immediately stop Hulk, calm him, and within seconds turn him into Banner. But I didn't.

My point was to make everyone's powers work in this thread not take powers away form anyone. This is why I gave Ironman 4 reloads of that laser thingy: it seems to be the best bet against the vampires.

Incorrect: almost all of them are that fast. Edward commits a similar feat against Bella, in the book, when she has a note. He vanishes, ends up behind her, and has already read the note by the time Bella notices.

Granted, Edward is faster, but this is the general idea that all the vampires give off besides large heavy vamps like Emmett.

You're forgetting something extremely important: the venom that basically makes up Vampire's blood is flammable. First, you have to tear them up before you can light them on fire. So, no, this point of yours is irrelevant. You can't burn them unless they are torn to pieces.

No, the reasons that they are not allowed to show themselves has nothing to do with them being afraid of humans: not even a little. Not even at tiny bit. If you were correct then why would they keep themselves a secret from the human world and enforce those laws for well over 2000 years? What you say makes no sense. It was just a form of control: an avenue by which they can exert power over the other vampires, kill them, and remain in power. Stephanie Meyers, herself, said that even if humans waged an all out war, a bomb might work but the vampire would have to hold still. That should be more than enough confirmation that vampires are more than fast enough to avoid nukes.

I can't speak to all of them because Edward is a very fast vampire. However, Edward is hypersonic. 😐 I would assume that most other vampires are at least supersonic because there is no way to assume that Edward is multiple times faster than other vampires.

To put things into perspective, Edward and outrun and catch a baseball, hit so hard that it sounds like thunder, that is described as moving like a meteor: another case for hypersonic on than the speed calculation I did for him.

Laurant may have been a slower vampire because Bella said this:

"I couldn't imagine the wolves running faster than a vampire. When the Cullens ran, they all but turned invisible with speed."

Victoria, though she had a special ability, consistently evaded all of the werewolves on land. Also, Jacob said "faster than a motorcycle", not as fast. I think Jacob said, literally, hundreds of times better than a motorcycle. 😐

Edit - The wiki says that, too. So I am not going crazy.

He didn't go on a "run", he went solo and roamed the northern portions of North America. You make it sound as thought he ran in a straight line the whole time and that's a massive miss-characterization of what actually took place.

I'll let the words speak for themselves. Bella, multiple times, says they turn invisible and/or teleport. If Bella describes them disappearing, even from a distance while viewing them, that should be more than clear enough to show that they move too fast even when fighting for a human to be able to have any hope of going H2H with them.

Wrong: she was taking 2 steps. That does not mean that she actually saw Alice take those steps: only that she discerned that those steps were taken to avoid Jasper. If you need an example of what I mean:

http://youtu.be/nRIUAVurbN8?t=3m18s

We don't actually see Goku moving but we can tell he moved one or two steps to avoid the energy attacks. Remember, Jasper vanished into thin air when Emmett looked like he finally had a grasp of Jasper. That should more than prove my point that what you want Bella's words to mean and what actually happened in the book are different: what I said was correct.

You mean those very slow moving tornadoes that took him a while to produce that even humans were able to resist on the ground?

Nah, that's not going to work. I think I agree that one of his lightning bolts should work on a twivamp but it will not come close to killing them: more like stun them like Kate's shock power.

Do you need some pom-poms, broski?

At least show some leg.

Technically in Avengers Ironman was shown to be able to contiguously use his lasers without them seemingly depleted when he tried to cut through a levitation.

You really wanna settle the speed debate.

I can name Bella's first hunt after she turned into a vampire. A MOUNTAIN LION was able to tag her and rip her cloths off.

Now mind you as described in the books, minus vampire powers, a newborn vampire is about as powerful as a vampire can get. We know this because it was stated that newborns still have most of their human blood in their body which makes them stronger than more mature vampires who only get blood by drinking it. She was literally able to beat Emmet in arm wrestling because of that single fact. She was said that she is faster than most vampires, Edward not included because the book made him a sue type character that defied most rules set forth with vampires, as well because she was a new born. So while she was at her strongest and fastest she will ever be as a vampire, I repeat, a Mountain Lion was able to attack and rip her cloths off. With the kind of speed you attribute to them dodging or reacting to a mountain lion attack should have been nothing for a newborn.

I like how you take the metoer and thunder comments made by bella as fact in trying to prove the vamps are hypersonic. She actually doesn't know how hard or how far the vamps were actually hitting the balls therefore any numbers you could come up with are based on similes made by a human trying to comprehend what is going on.

Also I said it was one of the reasons why the older vamp said they wanted to remain hidden, but he did make the fact that humans could harm vampires very clear and in the same sentence he used it as an excuse to the reason they needed to kill Renesme.

They didn't resist the tornado Thor has fine control over it so that only things inside the vortex would be effected afterall it was tossing cars around and cars are much heavier than a human.

Hulk smash puny sparky vamps!!
durhulk

Lol at comparing vamp speed to Quicksilver.

Quicksilver has crossed continents in less than a second. He was in the middle of a conversation, left before the next syllable came out of the girls mouth, then came back with flowers in his hair that only grew on a specific continent.

He's also run halfway across the world in roughly half a minute.

And just recently he punched Magneto going at Mach 4 or Mach 5.

No vamp is that fast.

Originally posted by KingD19
Lol at comparing vamp speed to Quicksilver.

Quicksilver has crossed continents in less than a second. He was in the middle of a conversation, left before the next syllable came out of the girls mouth, then came back with flowers in his hair that only grew on a specific continent.

He's also run halfway across the world in roughly half a minute.

And just recently he punched Magneto going at Mach 4 or Mach 5.

No vamp is that fast.

shhh!!! don't tell the twilight fanboys that 😛 😂

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, but that's not what you are doing. You said earlier kgf (kilogram force) not kgf*m (kilogram force meters), kgf can be converted to newtons. However, with the conversion you did (and what the tool indicates) you get kgf*m which can not be converted into a unit of force through the use of a constant.

I converted momentum into kinectic energy/joules. That's where you got lost. From there, just pretend it moves by 1 meter and it makes sense.

In other words, it is enough to apply those newtons over the distance of one meter. That's how much energy is used.

What you're trying to do is confuse people into thinking the math is "hokey": that's not going to work. You don't have to move any distance to expend that amount of energy. Generally, you assume 1 meter just to get the energy into kgf.