Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, these guys beat me to it:He could have just been trying to get them out of the way and had no plans on killing them. When Vader does it and succeeds, they are shown choking to death.
Either way: Used force for attack.
Could have just disarmed them by force flinging their axes away or mind tricked them...but proceeded to use the Vader technique, regardless of how much or how little.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Against anything more living sentient than a Battle Droid?
(And lets not count Yoda throwing a sabre through a clone..they were all firing at him)Luke used his lightsabre in self defense/deflecting balster fire and taking out those who shot at him in ROTJ on Tatooine and Endor. They were gonna kill him and his friends and they had blasters aplenty. He even tried verbally reasoning with Jabba and co and gave them fair warning too. Its very different to Anakin slaughtering a village of Sandpeople the way he did.
Those Gammorean pig guards are no Einsteins...he most likely could have just mindtricked them or force ripped their axe's/pikes from their piggy hands and away.
Over simplification or not, crushing someone's larynx is using the force for attack. Seems pretty dark. Way more harmful than using the force say to push them back a bit. And crushed larynx is a crushed larynx. Nasty stuff that could arguably have been avoided..
There's nothing 'dark' about crushing someone's throat as opposed to eviscerating them with a lightsabre or throwing them into a wall with incredible force (and yes, against more than battle droids (not that that should make any difference)- re: Yoda entering Palpatine's office).
Torturing someone with grip gives you a point. Using it to subdue, just as Luke did, is nothing. Using the Force to attack in that sense is a Jedi mainstay. Yoda was talking philosophy about the broad responsibilities of the Force. It is simply nonsense to say that Jedi cannot use it offensively, and Yoda himself happily attacks with it.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Either way: Used force for attack.
Could have just disarmed them by force flinging their axes away or mind tricked them...but proceeded to use the Vader technique, regardless of how much or how little.
But would not Yoda have had to teach him that? Seems the quote is just not true and was said more for effect rather than accuracy. I think George was letting too much Buddhism sneak through in that quote. Well, it may have held true in earlier Jedi who may have been more pacifistic?
Originally posted by dadudemon
But would not Yoda have had to teach him that? Seems the quote is just not true and was said more for effect rather than accuracy. I think George was letting too much Buddhism sneak through in that quote. Well, it may have held true in earlier Jedi who may have been more pacifistic?
Teach him what? Force TK? Seemed like that was taught already.
"Too much Buddism"? As if there is such a thing.. 😛
"Earlier Jedi who may have been more pacifistic"? AKA The Jedi who were active guardians for the galaxy for a 1000 generations, none of which turned to the darkside overthrowing the order and plunging the galaxy into darkness, you mean..?
Originally posted by focus4chumps
the palace guards were not attacking luke. so he wasnt exactly subduing aggressors.
Indeed.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
the palace guards were not attacking luke. so he wasnt exactly subduing aggressors.
But they would have barred him entry, attackng him if he had tried to go further and they were the evil guards in service of the evil crime lord who had taken Luke's friend. He was there to go get him- he bypassed the guards non-lethally.
If you are looking for Luke skirting the morality line in the ROTJ opening, it is lines like "Profit by this or be destroyed" and "Free us or die."These show intentions and are far more telling than the particular way he chooses to subdue guards.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Teach him what? Force TK? Seemed like that was taught already.
So something like forcechoke does not have to be learned? At least in Anakin's case, he got to observe it happen before using it. In Luke's case, it makes no sense to conclude his thoughts were as follows: "I should apply this telekinetic force, expertly, as a choking mechanism while entering the palace". His use was far superior than Anakin's first use of forcechoke. It was practiced, no doubt. He spent quite a bit of time with Yoda. Only explanation is Yoda taught it to him or Yoda gave him some study materials that taught him...then he practiced...but how? lol
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"Too much Buddism"? As if there is such a thing.. 😛
lol
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"Earlier Jedi who may have been more pacifistic"? AKA The Jedi who were active guardians for the galaxy for a 1000 generations, none of which turned to the darkside overthrowing the order and plunging the galaxy into darkness, you mean..?Indeed.
I was delving into the EU with that. Seems that the Jedi have been fighting in wars for thousands of years prior to the events of the movies...which is not very pacifistic.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
the palace guards were not attacking luke. so he wasnt exactly subduing aggressors.
Actually, they stepped forward and barred his way. They would be aggressors, in that case.
Luke was a lot more hardcore than most Jedi. I mean, he tried to shoot Jabba.
That said, I always took it that, while most Jedi preferred peace, they were just as capable of making war when needed.
I suppose they had to be given the nature of the work they did. And no doubt, their reputation as fierce warriors allowed them to end many a situation peacefully.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Luke was a lot more hardcore than most Jedi. I mean, he tried to shoot Jabba.That said, I always took it that, while most Jedi preferred peace, they were just as capable of making war when needed.
I suppose they had to be given the nature of the work they did. And no doubt, their reputation as fierce warriors allowed them to end many a situation peacefully.
True enough.
I bet Yoda hides in porta-potties to catch a glimpse of Chewie's nuts.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
But they would have barred him entry, attackng him if he had tried to go further and they were the evil guards in service of the evil crime lord who had taken Luke's friend. He was there to go get him- he bypassed the guards non-lethally.
fair point. they really were kinda the lookout men for a giant slug that was planning to rape his sister.
however with moral implications aside, you have to respect symbolism as significant and intentional in cinema. up until that point in the OT, a total of 3 people were force choked, all by vader. within the first 10 minutes of ep4 he's lifting a man in the air and choking him.
up till that point we only saw one jedi in action, playing mind tricks and manipulating sound to ward off violent enemies, essentially avoiding violence with stealth and only committing to violence when he had no choice.
luke was intended to appear dark and conflicted. when we last saw him, he was kinda longing to speak with his father and pissed off at kenobi.
also consider the deleted scene which was intended to be our first look at luke (skip to 1:00):
I do appreciate the symbolism, but as I say his darker attitude is better demonstrated by his words, and to take that symbolic reference to Vader and translate it to "Grip is a Dark Side power" is an over-simplification. As noted before, claiming that Jedi don't use the Force offensively just is not true. Intent is the real issue behind being Dark and Light. Vader used Grip to interrogate, punish, torture and murder.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
up till that point we only saw one jedi in action, playing mind tricks and manipulating sound to ward off violent enemies, essentially avoiding violence with stealth and only committing to violence when he had no choice.
Well, that same Jedi cut off the arm of a thug at a bar to intimidate those around him so they would leave them both alone. That is a "when in Rome" action rather than a "pacifistic" action.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
luke was intended to appear dark and conflicted. when we last saw him, he was kinda longing to speak with his father and pissed off at kenobi.
I don't think so. I think Luke was intended to appear mature, wise, and resolute: almost a complete Jedi Knight. That stuff you mention is petty, seems out of character for RotJ Luke, and he was more than mature/intelligent enough to see Obi Wan's reasons behind hiding the truth. His youth ended with ESB and RotJ was his debut as a man.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
also consider the deleted scene which was intended to be our first look at luke (skip to 1:00):
I see a Jedi who has completed a major step in his training: finishing the construction of his own lightsaber. Vader even looks at Luke's completed Lightsaber and concludes that Luke's "training is complete."
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Vader used Grip to interrogate, punish, torture and murder.
👆
And Luke used that power to save his friend from a Crimelord.
^ I think you meant PT Jedi 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemon
I see a Jedi who has completed a major step in his training: finishing the construction of his own lightsaber. Vader even looks at Luke's completed Lightsaber and concludes that Luke's "training is complete."
Yes and I used to think that it actually meant that his full training was complete. And he could now kick Vader's ass.
Unfortunately the PT and Clone Wars have taught us it was only his youngling training that was complete. He was now ready to be a real Jedi padawan 😠
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes and I used to think that it actually meant that his full training was complete. And he could now kick Vader's ass.Unfortunately the PT and Clone Wars have taught us it was only his youngling training that was complete. He was now ready to be a real Jedi padawan 😠
😆 😆 😆
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I do appreciate the symbolism, but as I say his darker attitude is better demonstrated by his words, and to take that symbolic reference to Vader and translate it to "Grip is a Dark Side power" is an over-simplification. As noted before, claiming that Jedi don't use the Force offensively just is not true. Intent is the real issue behind being Dark and Light. Vader used Grip to interrogate, punish, torture and murder.
well i agree mostly but i'm not trying to weigh this dark symbolism against that. rather i saw the whole package for what it was...dark. from what we mentioned and right on down to the foreboding music upon his entrance, we are meant to wonder whats going on in his head. and yes, closing someone's larynx is not evil by default, but its obviously dark imagery.
and ddm, you are just attempting to negate all the obviously conflicted backstory (luke longing for his father and anger at ben) from esb and foreshadowing to the inevitable conflict in luke which just about everyone else saw coming.