Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Since pre-suit vader is an emotional wreck and Anakin can relax during fights, I would say that pre-suit vader accidently leaps out of the window (assuming the hole is still in the window)
That emotional wreck curbstomped Cin Drallig with one hand tied behind his back.
Pre-Suit Vader takes this imo. His speed and arguably his power exceed/ match his later form.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
I think this ultimately comes (again) to the question: what do we mean by stating "RotS Anakin", because the only time we see Jedi Anakin fight in RotS is when he is in teh Zon3...
If RotS ANakin = Zone Anakin, then RotS Anakin wins this duel handily.Nice thread BTW!
RotS Anakin does mean Zone Anakin. If, however Zone No-Suit Vader even exists, that is who he is fight.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That emotional wreck curbstomped Cin Drallig with one hand tied behind his back.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha. 😛
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Pre-Suit Vader takes this imo. His speed and arguably his power exceed/ match his later form.
His lack of control and focus though, is a fatal liability, and although his Zone version could take out Kenobi, his Pre-suit Persona, could not.
RotS Anakin wins this.
- Hell, I'm not even sure Pre-suit Vader could defeat Count Dooku.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
I think this ultimately comes (again) to the question: what do we mean by stating "RotS Anakin", because the only time we see Jedi Anakin fight in RotS is when he is in teh Zon3...
If RotS ANakin = Zone Anakin, then RotS Anakin wins this duel handily.Nice thread BTW!
Agreed.
Originally posted by jmoul
RotS Anakin does mean Zone Anakin. If, however Zone No-Suit Vader even exists, that is who he is fight.
Unfortunately, there is no such thing as Zone Pre-suit Vader - if there was, Obi-wan would have doing the backstroke in hot lava and singing soprano.
RotS Anakin stomps here.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That emotional wreck curbstomped Cin Drallig with one hand tied behind his back.Pre-Suit Vader takes this imo. His speed and arguably his power exceed/ match his later form.
His later form? This is between RotS Anakin and pre-suit Vader, not Pre-suit Vader and suited Vader.
His lack of control and focus though, is a fatal liability, and although his Zone version could take out Kenobi, his Pre-suit Persona, could not.RotS Anakin wins this.
- Hell, I'm not even sure Pre-suit Vader could defeat Count Dooku.
Anakin got enraged and was recklessly attaking Dooku, his entire focus was on him. Same way he recklessly attacked Kenobi, his entire focus was on him to the point that he didn't care about anything else.
You judged Yoda vs Dooku by what you see in film and I agreed with you on that. So lets judge it by what we see in film and this time. Lets compare fights of Anakin with Dooku and Kenobi.
He kicked Dooku ones. He, also, kicked Kenobi and strength of it was enough for Kenobi to generate a backflip. Moreover, he kicked Kenobi second time and Kenobi was completly knocked off feet and dropped lightsaber.
Anakin couldn't overwhelm Dooku in pure sabers but defeated him with a grappling technique. Anakin tried grappling Kenobi as well but unlike Dooku Kenobi is good in unarmed combat and managed to escape it.
Overally, Anakin tried on Kenobi everything he tried on Dooku but Kenobi proved to be harder to defeat.
Also, Dooku stalemated Anakin in saber lock. Kenobi in CW demonstrated that his strength is firmly above Dooku. Yet, Anakin was overpowering Kenobi and nearly pushed his one lightsaber into his face.
Finally, Anakin vs Kenobi fight had much higher speed and technical level comparing to Anakin vs Dooku and Windu vs Sidious and pretty much all other movie fights. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Anakin's performance was decreased. On the other hand it looks like he performed better than ever and lost only because of his recklessness.
Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi in CW demonstrated that his strength is firmly above Dooku.
Are you talking about force enhanced strength? If you are then don't forget Dooku's Uber kick which sent ROTS Anakin flying across the room landing on his rear.
I don't remember Obi-Wan landing a kick on Anakin (or anyone) which was that powerful.
Are you talking about force enhanced strength? If you are then don't forget Dooku's Uber kick which sent ROTS Anakin flying across the room landing on his rear.I don't remember Obi-Wan landing a kick on Anakin (or anyone) which was that powerful.
My opinion was based on feats with Opress. Dooku on first encounter with Opress got nocked off feet and dropped lightsaber. Kenobi before getting disarmed blocked three attacks without doing a single step backward. And later even combined strength of Opress and Maul wasn't enough to overpower Kenobi in saber lock.
As for Kenobi's kicks I believe that it requires hell lot of strength to break leg of someone like Opress. And in RotS Kenobi kicked Anakin right into face knocking him down, I don't think anyone else apart from Anakin would still be combat effective after such concussion.
But yes, it seems that Dooku can muster a lot of strength as well as he demonstrated on Anakin. Perhaps because Kenobi trained with Anakin, he had much more experience than Dooku in countering very strong attacks.
Originally posted by ArhaelMy opinion was based on feats with Opress. Dooku on first encounter with Opress got nocked off feet and dropped lightsaber. Kenobi before getting disarmed blocked three attacks without doing a single step backward. And later even combined strength of Opress and Maul wasn't enough to overpower Kenobi in saber lock.
I'm not sure that's quite fair. Dooku's first fight with Opress was in their sparring match where he totally embarrassed him. Yes that was before his training from Dooku, but he still had all that physical strength and likely some force enhanced strength.
Whilst the time he got knocked down he was spending a lot of energy dodging both him and Ventress.
Also don't forget how he deflected all of Skywalker's Power Strikes in "Crisis on Naboo."
Originally posted by Arhael
As for Kenobi's kicks I believe that it requires hell lot of strength to break leg of someone like Opress.
True his kicks against Opress were impressive. But I was more impressed with the way he used them. Kicking the knee is a martial artist's way of weakening your opponent.
So it's hard to quantify how impressive it is to hurt Opress's knee. Clearly it takes strength because Adi Gallia couldn't do it. But it's not like Obi-Wan did it with one kick either.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh wow, my bad, reading comprehension ftw.
Yeah ROTS Jedi Anakin dominates this then, especially in teh zone.
I'm not sure that's quite fair. Dooku's first fight with Opress was in their sparring match where he totally embarrassed him.
Yes that was before his training from Dooku, but he still had all that physical strength and likely some force enhanced strength.
Whilst the time he got knocked down he was spending a lot of energy dodging both him and Ventress.Also don't forget how he deflected all of Skywalker's Power Strikes in "Crisis on Naboo."
Also don't forget how he deflected all of Skywalker's Power Strikes in "Crisis on Naboo."
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Gee, I dunno... crying and force choking the shit out of his wife maybe?I'd say that indicates some mental instability, of which focus and clarity are not usually associated with.
That was such a badly-written movie. Leave it up to George Lucas to create a totally unrealistic character.
Originally posted by Arhael
If you re-watch that sparring, you will see that Dooku deflects his attacks sideways relying on his grace instead of strength.
Point is Dooku was most probably taken by surprise when he got knocked down by Opress's strength. End of the day Ventress has parried a full on blow from Opress and Dooku has shown he's easily at least as strong as her. Obi-Wan was also disarmed by Opress in a few blows in the episode "Revenge" but then in "Revival" he parried many many blows of Opress, sometimes one handed.
So clearly you have to be ready to take on Opress's full blows.
Edit- And let's not forget that Dooku has parried the combined power of Obi-Wan and Anakin one handed!
Originally posted by Arhael
When they both attacked, Dooku exchanged a few parries with Ventress, dodged Opress twice and kicked her twice. It all happened in 16 seconds. Then, while she was recovering from second kick, he fully focused on Opress. He dodged 6-7 attacks and and on first block was knocked off feet. If you think that Dooku got tired in 16 seconds prior to that, then you seriously underestimate his Force reserves. 🙂
Well according to the script Dooku was getting tired in ROTS when he was fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin. And he hardly fights them both for 20 seconds.
So clearly fighting off 2 powerful opponents like that can be draining.
Originally posted by Arhael
And he continued fighting Ventress after and spamming lightning on Opress, it doesn't look that he was tired at all. Moreover, after Opress choked them both Dooku and Ventress continued fighting, Dooku was driving her back then utterly Force stomped her by Force pinning her to a wall, pulling lightsabers out of her hands like Yoda and electrocuting her. So Opress legitimately overwhelmed him with strength.
But as we know from the ROTS novel, Dooku does get tired but can then revitalize himself with the Force.
So we can assume he probably revitalized himself a few times during the Opress/Ventress fight as well.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, Anakin was nowhere as strong as Opress, he acquired similar strength only after getting suit. That was the idea that noone was as strong as Opress, not Anakin, not Kenobi, not Sidious.
Your just talking about Physical Strength. I'm talking about Physical plus Force Enhanced Strength. I'm not sure Opress or Vader were stronger than an Enraged Anakin. And don't forget about Anakin's Cyborg arm that can crush droids like paper.