RotS Anakin vs. Pre-Suit Vader

So clearly you have to be ready to take on Opress's full blows.

Well according to the script Dooku was getting tired in ROTS when he was fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin. And he hardly fights them both for 20 seconds.

But as we know from the ROTS novel, Dooku does get tired but can then revitalize himself with the Force.

So we can assume he probably revitalized himself a few times during the Opress/Ventress fight as well.

Your just talking about Physical Strength. I'm talking about Physical plus Force Enhanced Strength. I'm not sure Opress or Vader were stronger than an Enraged Anakin. And don't forget about Anakin's Cyborg arm that can crush droids like paper.

No one could equal Opress' strength. Just in case I will remind you that you don't need to be as strong to block attacks of stronger opponents. Consider example of Kenobi stalemating Opress and Maul. His hands were straight, so most pressure was coming onto his wrists. They had enough strength to overower his muscles but not enough to break his wrists.

Originally posted by Arhael

Lol. You reminded me of half-life, where you pick up medpacks to revitalize yourself a few times. 😄

It's the advert for Lucozade as well 😉

Originally posted by Arhael
Opress' Force enhanced strength is above everyone. Anakin was driven back by his strength as well.

But remember that was a rage enhanced Opress and Anakin was likely holding back on his rage since he was fighting alongside Obi-Wan. Anakin is supposed to have the most raw power in the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael

Script doesn't prove anything as it contradicts films. Better lets agree that Dooku was taken by surprice like everyone else. No one fought such a strong opponent before.

The script/novel do not contradict the film when taking editing/cutaways into account.

Remember it has to be a direct contradiction in order to be rendered non-canon, and only the part that directly contradicts the film is affected by this.

But remember that was a rage enhanced Opress and Anakin was likely holding back on his rage since he was fighting alongside Obi-Wan. Anakin is supposed to have the most raw power in the Force.

Superior raw power doesn't give superior strength and Force attacks. Dooku and especially Kenobi proved it. Greater power gives superior reserves. Even Marek couldn't overpower anyone in normal circumstances and was outskilling instead.
Look at Dorsk 82. Because he could access Force reserves of other Jedi he was drawing on the Force heavier and heavier without getting exhausted to the point that he pushed 14 Star Destroyers out of Yavin system.

Kenobi and Anakin stalemated each other because their Force mastery was equal, however, if not Force explosion, Kenobi's reserves would finish up much faster. Similarly Luke was getting exhausted after every contest with Abeloth, yet, she could never overpower him. In final contest Luke tanked her lightning and outwrestled her but without Krayt who pierced a hole in her stomach through which her power leached out Luke would just get exhausted and lose.

Originally posted by Arhael

Dooku knew that Opress is strong and still got knocked off feat. Kenobi dealed with him twice before and still on blocking first attack he screamed out, stagered back and got disarmed as well.

Hey I thought we agreed they wern't properly ready/braced for his strength!

Originally posted by Arhael
Superior raw power doesn't give superior strength

That's the reason Anakin was much stronger than Obi-Wan and Dooku wasn't it?? At least when enraged anyway. Even calm I'd say he's a bit stronger than those 2 which is mainly due to his raw power, but probably also aided by his physique and cyborg arm.

Opress' strength is obviously Physical and Force Enhanced. Perhaps in terms of just "strength" he might be equal to or superior to Anakin.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The script/novel do not contradict the film when taking editing/cutaways into account.

Remember it has to be a direct contradiction in order to be rendered non-canon, and only the part that directly contradicts the film is affected by this.

Yes the ROTS scripted version of the Dooku vs Anakin/Obi-Wan fight is pretty much exactly the same as the on screen version. So if the script says Dooku was getting tired, then that's that.

Hey I thought we agreed they wern't properly ready/braced for his strength!

Obvious change in tactic to counter Opress is to grip lightsaber much tighter than normally, deflect attacks sideways instead of blocking and rely more on dodging.

Also, with swords, if you can put your opponent on defensive, you will receive less strong attacks to deal with. That's what Kenobi did, when he used Jarkai, he put both Opress and Maul on defensive.

That's the reason Anakin was much stronger than Obi-Wan and Dooku wasn't it??

And Anakin was overpowering Kenobi's hand very slowly, that's exact strength difference you would expect between two athletic people of different weight category.

Actually I now think that Anakin is not even stronger than Dooku. His attacks are strong because his style requires him to put full strength into attacks and extra weight in his arm gives his attacks more kinetic energy. And because of his superior power he can apply full strength without getting tired, while Dooku gets exhausted pretty quickly, that's what happened to Dooku each time.

Originally posted by Arhael

But he wasn't. Dooku with good posture could still stalemate him in saber lock. While Anakin struggled and was making straining sounds, Dooku was calm and talked with even voice.

And Anakin was overpowering Kenobi's hand very slowly, that's exact strength difference you would expect between two athletic people of different weight category.

Actually I now think that Anakin is not even stronger than Dooku. His attacks are strong because his style requires him to put full strength into attacks and extra weight in his arm gives his attacks more kinetic energy. And because of his superior power he can apply full strength without getting tired, while Dooku gets exhausted pretty quickly, that's what happened to Dooku each time.

Your forgetting one thing. Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on. This is confirmed by the novel and the script. Just because Dooku and Obi-Wan have matched him in a Saber lock doesn't mean they are consistently as strong as him.

End of the day Obi-Wan has matched Maul and Opress in a Saber lock. Doesn't mean he's as strong as both of them combined!

Your forgetting one thing. Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on. This is confirmed by the novel and the script. Just because Dooku and Obi-Wan have matched him in a Saber lock doesn't mean they are consistently as strong as him.

End of the day Obi-Wan has matched Maul and Opress in a Saber lock. Doesn't mean he's as strong as both of them combined!

Let me explain the reason behind my opinion.

For example, Luke stalemated plenty of far more powerful characters as well as got stalemated by plenty of characters with inferior power. There are plenty of characters with comparable or far more impressive than Luke's feats. My opinion is that he wins because of his skill and Force Mastery, not because he's got unfair Force potential advantage.
Same with Anakin. His was twice more powerful than Sidious but it never made him unfairly twice more capable in combat. Same for Marek, he legitimately outskilled every single opponent, not overpowered.

Now let me give you bulletproof evidence that Anakin doesn't compare to Opress in strength. Remember how both Anakin and Kenobi tried to restrain Opress by jumping on him from behind? Yes, he casually shrugged them off and he wasn't even boosted by rage. Now remember how Anakin tried to kill Kenobi's merderer who in fact was Kenobi himself? If yes, then you must remember how Kenobi restrained him from behind and choked him till unconsciousness despite Anakin clearly struggling to escape, being clearly enraged and as you said having proestetic hand that could crush droids. 🙂

Originally posted by Arhael

Now let me give you bulletproof evidence that Anakin doesn't compare to Opress in strength. Remember how both Anakin and Kenobi tried to restrain Opress by jumping on him from behind? Yes, he casually shrugged them off and he wasn't even boosted by rage.

True, but I would argue that Anakin's Jedi training restrains him more than Opress would restrain himself after being turned into a beast of rage by the nightsisters and then trained by Dooku to unleash that rage in combat.

Plus he was probably angered when he ended up killing the Toydarian King which he wasn't supposed to.

Originally posted by Arhael
Now remember how Anakin tried to kill Kenobi's merderer who in fact was Kenobi himself? If yes, then you must remember how Kenobi restrained him from behind and choked him till unconsciousness despite Anakin clearly struggling to escape, being clearly enraged and as you said having proestetic hand that could crush droids. 🙂

Of course Anakin was disadvantaged in thinking this was just some ordinary bounty hunter, whilst Obi-Wan knew who he was fighting and how to take him out.

Anyway I agree Opress will be stronger. His Physical strength alone is monstrous, let alone adding force enahnced strength to that.

But I honestly don't think a fully enraged Anakin would be far behind in strength. You've given valid examples of people dealing with Anakin, but let's not forget Obi-Wan parrying the combined power Maul and Opress.

Plus he was probably angered when he ended up killing the Toydarian King which he wasn't supposed to.

But I honestly don't think a fully enraged Anakin would be far behind in strength.

but let's not forget Obi-Wan parrying the combined power Maul and Opress.

Same situation here. Kenobi could push against a wall to utilize his whole strength effectively, while Opress and Maul couldn't. Although, Force users can use the Force to root themselves in one place, still I don't think that Opress was skilled enough to do that and still unlike them Kenobi could focus whole power into his muscles.

When I talk about Yoda's limitations, I point out at the same problem. He is not only much weaker physically but because of lack of weight and attacking in air he can't effectively utilize his Force enhanced strength either. For the same reason I laugh, when people claim that Yoda overpowered Sidious in saber lock.

Originally posted by Arhael
Thanks for reminding. Opress
choked the King, while Kenobi and Anakin tried to restrain him, that's how futile their attempt was. 😄

Lol point I was making was he was clearly wasn't restraining himself or his rage like Anakin was.

Originally posted by Arhael
But nah, I prefer to see Anakin as someone who dominates others because of exceptional skill, not because of unfair advantage like Opress.

But that's the whole point of the Chosen One isn't it? That he has an unfair advantage due to his exceptional raw power which is beyond even Yoda or Sidious??

This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation

And even Mace Windu later states "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive.."

That's the reason he was forcing Obi-Wan back the whole fight, because of how strong he was due to his raw power. His skill set was said to be Equal to Kenobi's.

But that's the whole point of the Chosen One isn't it? That he has an unfair advantage due to his exceptional raw power which is beyond even Yoda or Sidious??

That's the reason he was forcing Obi-Wan back the whole fight, because of how strong he was due to his raw power. His skill set was said to be Equal to Kenobi's.

Still in RotS and especially CW it didn't look like Dooku got tired to the point that his performance decreased. Imho Anakin outskilled him plain and square.

By the way in fight with Kenobi it looked like Anakin got exhausted after all because towards the end Kenobi could defend against him without being driven back. Kenobi completely mitigated Anakin's unfair advantage.

Just thought about mechanics of fight and actually Kenobi had reasonable chance to outlast Anakin. Anakin used full strength just to swing lightsaber, you can get tired even by swinging at empty air but Kenobi spent energy only for blocking. Another important factor is that Soresu practitioners keep lightsaber close around their body, it is done to intercept attacks closer to hilt to spend less strength on blocking. So while Anakin was twice more powerful, Kenobi spent twice less energy.