Originally posted by Horrificuswell the power of prayer from trillions of humans across the galaxy gives him his powers, that and the daily sacrifice of thousands of humans keeps him alive. Sick place to live.
Odin has more raw power, but the Emperor has some of the highest-level psych-hoodoo on any written page!The Emperor was able to dwell in the ultimate chaos dimension (The Warp) and send the major chaos gods of the Warhammer Universe fleeing into the corners. With nothing but his mind.
He is immortal, God-like intelligence and has been around since man first created Odin.
Originally posted by DiesldudeYup. That and the fact that he seems to be doing all kinds of other things all over the galaxy, simultaneously. Influencing, intervening, empowering, protecting and all the time, keeping a presence in the warp (chaos dimension), and probably a ton of other things I am forgetting.
well the power of prayer from trillions of humans across the galaxy gives him his powers, that and the daily sacrifice of thousands of humans keeps him alive. Sick place to live.
He doesn't have a lot of showings where all his power is centralized by himself, in battle. Except, single-handedly defeating Horus, who, at the time, was being empowered by all 4 of the major Chaos Gods (think Marvel Elder Gods on Steroids), and was channeling all of the potential energy of the warp as well. The Emperor did that under his own power.
And, he also defeated the Dragon by himself. The Dragon being one of the C'tan Gods that basically traveled space, devouring suns.
I'm sure this is probably too much 40K fluff for in here.
The point is, the Emperor is more of the kind of God that is working in the life of humanity, (in this case, trillions of humans scattered through the galaxy and the warp.) Not so much the kind of god that exists as an individual with human-like agendas, emotions and actions.
So, it is tough to match him up properly.
Originally posted by Endless MikeThe greater demons alone are the size of entire solar systems in the warp. They have been shown to casually bump planets away by mistake. At any one time, they are showing up in real space at many different times and places. It takes entire armies, or Primarchs, or herald-level beings to defeat them.
More like the Chaos Gods would be equal to low to mid-tier Skyfathers except restricted mostly to their own dimension with only a limited amount of influence on normal space/time, except in certain places (like the Eye of Terror).
And, they are simply pawns of the chaos gods.
The chaos gods are impossibly large. Sizes of a "universal" measure, since the warp could swallow entire universes itself. They power many races, armies, champions, demons, etc, all throughout real space. All, without ever having to show up in person. The only thing they cannot do, is personally enter real space and end the whole thing.
Calling them "mid-tier skyfather" level is incorrect. When I used the term "elder-god" as a description, I was being conservative. Since the chaos gods have been shown to have more influence, power, size, followers and success than Set, Cthon or any of comparable beings in Marvel. Even though, they operate in much the same ways.
Originally posted by HorrificusYou are right to an extent but defining them in terms of size is wrong. Space/Time are not really finite definitions within the warp. It's rules are dependent on its denizens and those capable of influencing the warp defining the rules and enforcing them with their will. That said. Odin would absolutely get crushed if he walked into the realms of the chaos gods. But recent fluff has beaten them down with a nerf bat. Namely Matt Ward and his single minded crusade to utterly destroy WH40K lore. Mind you back in the day it was considered an achievement for Sanguinius probably one of the top 3 overall in power Primarchs (as admitted by Horus who said he had a spark he lacked and should have been warmaster) to defeat even a bloodthirster. Mind you a single bloodthirster of sufficient rank and power is capable of essentially razing an entire planet on their own while it is dominated by another faction.
The greater demons alone are the size of entire solar systems in the warp. They have been shown to casually bump planets away by mistake. At any one time, they are showing up in real space at many different times and places. It takes entire armies, or Primarchs, or herald-level beings to defeat them.And, they are simply pawns of the chaos gods.
The chaos gods are impossibly large. Sizes of a "universal" measure, since the warp could swallow entire universes itself. They power many races, armies, champions, demons, etc, all throughout real space. All, without ever having to show up in person. The only thing they cannot do, is personally enter real space and end the whole thing.
Calling them "mid-tier skyfather" level is incorrect. When I used the term "elder-god" as a description, I was being conservative. Since the chaos gods have been shown to have more influence, power, size, followers and success than Set, Cthon or any of comparable beings in Marvel. Even though, they operate in much the same ways.
But now you have characters like Khaldor Draigo who walks around in the warp generally wrecking the Chaos Gods shit including a Garden of Nurgle which contains supreme space aids/cancer. Mind you if a garden of nurgle were in real space it would easily be equivalent to The Rot from Marvel. Fortunately for the denizens of the wh40k universe reality is anathema to warp entities for the most part.
That said if Odin gives the Emprah a chance to bring his psychic might down on him and if the Emperor weren't confined to the golden throne, Odin would get crushed.
That said the Emprah is currently sitting on a giant life support system because he refused to strike down his favored son until he proved himself irredeemable. so Odin winds by disconnecting the lifesupport.
Originally posted by Horrificus
The greater demons alone are the size of entire solar systems in the warp. They have been shown to casually bump planets away by mistake. At any one time, they are showing up in real space at many different times and places. It takes entire armies, or Primarchs, or herald-level beings to defeat them.And, they are simply pawns of the chaos gods.
The chaos gods are impossibly large. Sizes of a "universal" measure, since the warp could swallow entire universes itself. They power many races, armies, champions, demons, etc, all throughout real space. All, without ever having to show up in person. The only thing they cannot do, is personally enter real space and end the whole thing.
Calling them "mid-tier skyfather" level is incorrect. When I used the term "elder-god" as a description, I was being conservative. Since the chaos gods have been shown to have more influence, power, size, followers and success than Set, Cthon or any of comparable beings in Marvel. Even though, they operate in much the same ways.
Yeah... This is all mostly bullshit, sorry.
The Chaos Gods are a galactic force. Nothing more. They are formed by the emotions of a single galaxy, notably they came into being from the War in Heaven, the battle between the Necrons and their C'tan overlords, and the Old Ones. The only suggestion of Chaos being universal is the old legend of Tzeentch's staff, which is just that, a legend.
If the Emperor on the Golden Throne dies, Chaos will spill into the materium and swallow the galaxy, but only the galaxy.
Also, the Emperor defeated a Dragon that was starved, and notably was getting his ass kicked by it until he found a weakness in its necrodermis.
Odin psychically dueled Galactus, a feat I frankly don't see the God-Emperor replicating.
Odin could walk into the Warp and stomp all four Chaos Gods, and go on to destroy Gork and Mork, whom btw are more powerful than the Chaos Gods and even the God-Emperor.
Also, Uriel, Sanguinius being considered to be a better choice for Warmaster by Horus means exactly dick in terms of power. If power alone were the qualifier, Magnus the Red would be Warmaster. Magnus certainly is capable of bitching Horus without moving a muscle. Considering Lorgar could do so telepathically, only to soon be telepathically dominated by Magnus, who was on the other side of the galaxy. Not to mention, Ka'Bhanda, the Bloodthirster Sanguinius beat, is the strongest Bloodthirster, only An'ggrath can contest this position (Whom, by the way, Lorgar beat in single combat, before he took his epic levels in badass).
People like to think of the Emperor as this incredible god, but then ignore that he has been injured by "mere" plasma weaponry and was in danger of being strangled by a powerful Ork Warlord.
Odin beats him with almost no effort.
Originally posted by NemeBroWay to start your post with an insult! Kudos to you. But, since you also said "sorry", you must not be as much of a di*k as you seem to be.
Yeah... This is all mostly bullshit, sorry.The Chaos Gods are a galactic force. Nothing more. They are formed by the emotions of a single galaxy, notably they came into being from the War in Heaven, the battle between the Necrons and their C'tan overlords, and the Old Ones. The only suggestion of Chaos being universal is the old legend of Tzeentch's staff, which is just that, a legend.
If the Emperor on the Golden Throne dies, Chaos will spill into the materium and swallow the galaxy, but only the galaxy.
Also, the Emperor defeated a Dragon that was starved, and notably was getting his ass kicked by it until he found a weakness in its necrodermis.
Odin psychically dueled Galactus, a feat I frankly don't see the God-Emperor replicating.
Odin could walk into the Warp and stomp all four Chaos Gods, and go on to destroy Gork and Mork, whom btw are more powerful than the Chaos Gods and even the God-Emperor.
Also, Uriel, Sanguinius being considered to be a better choice for Warmaster by Horus means exactly dick in terms of power. If power alone were the qualifier, Magnus the Red would be Warmaster. Magnus certainly is capable of bitching Horus without moving a muscle. Considering Lorgar could do so telepathically, only to soon be telepathically dominated by Magnus, who was on the other side of the galaxy. Not to mention, Ka'Bhanda, the Bloodthirster Sanguinius beat, is the strongest Bloodthirster, only An'ggrath can contest this position (Whom, by the way, Lorgar beat in single combat, before he took his epic levels in badass).
People like to think of the Emperor as this incredible god, but then ignore that he has been injured by "mere" plasma weaponry and was in danger of being strangled by a powerful Ork Warlord.
Odin beats him with almost no effort.
Actually, you are much more sure of your opinion than you should be.
Keep in mind, I never said that the Emperor could defeat Odin. I was just saying he is powerful and tough to quantify.
First of all, "the galaxy" has always been the stage that gets presented by the 40k mythos, rather than "universal". There is plenty of written fluff that points to chaos being "behind" the entire universe. And, some of the most recent books allude to it and will be delving even more into it, as new story lines travel outside of the galaxy.
Chaos is present as the stories do this and will be so even more so in the future.
Tyranids, who come from outside of the 40k galaxy, although being a relatively new race, (in relation to other races), have a pre-existing enmity against the forces of chaos, stemming from before they ever even entered the galactic plane.
Even if the recent fluff about the War in Heaven is true, it only means that it helped with the most recent development of chaos gods, forming from the potential energy of the warp. There were other races before the Necron and possibly even the Old Ones, or WITH the Old Ones. So, the war with the Necron does not seem to be the most likely beginning of the chaos gods.
NEVER has it ever been stated that chaos would swallow "only" the galaxy. It could swallow the galaxy, but nowhere does it state that it would be localized there.
Nowhere does it say that he was getting his ass kicked by the Dragon until he found it's weakness.
You don't see the Emperor psychically dueling with Galactus. Well, that's your opinion, which happens to be without value in my book. But, that's MY opinion.
Your opinions about Odin walking into the warp and stomping, and Gork and Mork being more powerful than the chaos gods, is just your opinion. If anything, Gork and Mork might have equal power to the 4 chaos gods, but instead of it being divided amongst for gods, it is divided amongst the two, Gork and Mork.
All of your opinions about the other primarchs, power levels and Horus, have nothing to do with my post. My point, alluding to the power of Horus when he battled the Emperor, was that all 4 of the chaos gods were channeling there power into him. This is what elevates him to unheard of levels. THIS is the character that I am talking about.
To ignore all of that power, placed into one being, kills your entire argument.
And, come on. Don't try low-balling the Emperor with me. I am a big Odin fan, as lots of forum members will attest to. Odin, like all other characters, has low showings also. The Emperor having a problem with a Gork/Mork empowered Warboss, while his powers are being distributed amongst trillions of other humans throughout the galaxy, is not a bad showing. Especially, since 40k space orks have always been shown to be able to tap into unlimited Gork/Mork knowledge, power, magic, etc, when it is needed.
Finally, as I was saying in my previous post, unlike the characters in Marvel or DC, usually the Emperor and the chaos gods are known for dispersing their power and influence amongst an uncountable number of beings. The battle between Chaos Amp'd Horus and the Emperor is one of the only times all of that power was brought to center on two combatants. And, that has always been crucial to the entire story of that climactic battle. It was the end game and they were all letting it all hang out.
Originally posted by Horrificusorks were overpowered in their original fluff... get enough orcs to believe a block of metal with a whole drilled in it is the most powerful force of dakka in the universe and it eventually holds true. Hell most advanced ork tech doesn't actually work for anyone besides orks because the only reason it works is because the orks believe it does.
Way to start your post with an insult! Kudos to you. But, since you also said "sorry", you must not be as much of a di*k as you seem to be.Actually, you are much more sure of your opinion than you should be.
Keep in mind, I never said that the Emperor could defeat Odin. I was just saying he is powerful and tough to quantify.
First of all, "the galaxy" has always been the stage that gets presented by the 40k mythos, rather than "universal". There is plenty of written fluff that points to chaos being "behind" the entire universe. And, some of the most recent books allude to it and will be delving even more into it, as new story lines travel outside of the galaxy.
Chaos is present as the stories do this and will be so even more so in the future.
Tyranids, who come from outside of the 40k galaxy, although being a relatively new race, (in relation to other races), have a pre-existing enmity against the forces of chaos, stemming from before they ever even entered the galactic plane.
Even if the recent fluff about the War in Heaven is true, it only means that it helped with the most recent development of chaos gods, forming from the potential energy of the warp. There were other races before the Necron and possibly even the Old Ones, or WITH the Old Ones. So, the war with the Necron does not seem to be the most likely beginning of the chaos gods.
NEVER has it ever been stated that chaos would swallow "only" the galaxy. It could swallow the galaxy, but nowhere does it state that it would be localized there.
Nowhere does it say that he was getting his ass kicked by the Dragon until he found it's weakness.
You don't see the Emperor psychically dueling with Galactus. Well, that's your opinion, which happens to be without value in my book. But, that's MY opinion.
Your opinions about Odin walking into the warp and stomping, and Gork and Mork being more powerful than the chaos gods, is just your opinion. If anything, Gork and Mork might have equal power to the 4 chaos gods, but instead of it being divided amongst for gods, it is divided amongst the two, Gork and Mork.
All of your opinions about the other primarchs, power levels and Horus, have nothing to do with my post. My point, alluding to the power of Horus when he battled the Emperor, was that all 4 of the chaos gods were channeling there power into him. This is what elevates him to unheard of levels. THIS is the character that I am talking about.
To ignore all of that power, placed into one being, kills your entire argument.
And, come on. Don't try low-balling the Emperor with me. I am a big Odin fan, as lots of forum members will attest to. Odin, like all other characters, has low showings also. The Emperor having a problem with a Gork/Mork empowered Warboss, while his powers are being distributed amongst trillions of other humans throughout the galaxy, is not a bad showing. Especially, since 40k space orks have always been shown to be able to tap into unlimited Gork/Mork knowledge, power, magic, etc, when it is needed.
Finally, as I was saying in my previous post, unlike the characters in Marvel or DC, usually the Emperor and the chaos gods are known for dispersing their power and influence amongst an uncountable number of beings. The battle between Chaos Amp'd Horus and the Emperor is one of the only times all of that power was brought to center on two combatants. And, that has always been crucial to the entire story of that climactic battle. It was the end game and they were all letting it all hang out.
For example in official fluff and game rule books orks painitng vehicles different colors actually effects the capacity of vehicles by shear virtue of their color being defined as an orky value for something. Red wunz go fasta for example. Black ones are 'arder. etc etc.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerYeah. I don't know how I can really argue this effectively.
👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆We saw what Oblivion stated regarding Galactus' formidable mental defenses and Odin still managed to penetrate his mind regardless.
I just claim that :
40K Chaos Gods > Marvel Elder Gods > Odin
and
The Emperor of Mankind = 40K Chaos Gods.
But, again, this was only when the Emperor consolidated all of his power for the final battle.
If Odin was shown to be above or equal to the Elder Gods, that would also settle things.
Originally posted by Horrificus
Yeah. I don't know how I can really argue this effectively.
The Marvel and 40K universes are totally disconnected.I just claim that :
40K Chaos Gods > Marvel Elder Gods > Odin
and
The Emperor of Mankind = 40K Chaos Gods.
But, again, this was only when the Emperor consolidated all of his power for the final battle.
If Odin was shown to be above or equal to the Elder Gods, that would also settle things.
Again the point that I was highlighting in Nemebro's post is that Odin psychically dueled a being whose mental defenses were too formidable for a high-end Abstract to attempt to penetrate. What feats of psychic ability or mental prowess does the Emperor have to suggest that he could compare to this level of psychic power?
Originally posted by TheGodKillerWell, I don't want to get into the whole Odin vs Elder God thing.
Your abc logic doesn't make any sense to me. And Odin has more feats than most Elder Gods under his belt.Again the point that I was highlighting in Nemebro's post is that Odin psychically dueled a being whose mental defenses were too formidable for a high-end Abstract to attempt to penetrate. What feats of psychic ability or mental prowess does the Emperor have to suggest that he could compare to this level of psychic power?
And, I understand what you are saying about Odin's feats and psychic ability. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, pointing out some hints of what the Emperor has.
Again, able to match against all 4 chaos gods, pretty much for 10's of thousand of years.
Battling them to a standstill in their home dimension itself, which is probably about equal to facing 4 Shuma Gorath entities in their own dimension.
Defeated Horus while he was charged with the power of all 4 chaos gods at once.
Psychic feats include the fact that his psychic beacon can be tapped and followed anywhere in the galaxy and anywhere in the warp.
Guides and empowers trillions of humans throughout the galaxy and the warp in many different ways.
But, like I said before, it is hard to really match them up.
IIRC G.E.M being Horus's "father" didn't want to kill him and was trying to talk some sense into him. He killed Horus only after realizing that be lost him to the chaos gods forever and that was after horus had already delivered a near fatal blow. So I think he really overpowered the chaos gods while near death. I have to go with God Emperor of Mankind here.
Some feats from Odin include:
-Telepathically dueling Galactus
-Telepathically altering the memories of Midgard and Asgard
-Shunting the realm of Asgard from its normal dimensional plane
-Forcibly taking the souls/essence of an entire race of beings and melding them into a single one (ie. creating Mangog)
-Enchanting Mjolnir and various other mystical weapons/artifacts
-Engaging Seth in a battle which was allegedly multiversal in scope (allegedly wasn't even at full power)
-Destroying galaxies
-Stopping and reversing time
-Capable of forcibly taking a soul from Mephisto's realm and sending it to TOAA and 'heaven'
-Physically capable of overpowering the likes of Thor
I will say that this God Emperor of Mankind dude does sound impressive, but Odin's feats, especially in the midst of combat, are superior to what has been listed so far.