Originally posted by TheGodKiller
They argue that because it is. Thor resisted tp probing/attempted mind control from a telepathic omega level mutant and PF-amped Omega class telepath(omega class telepath is simply a highly experienced and powerful telepath, NOT an omega level mutant), yet got subdued by a tp command from another (unamped)omega class telepath which was unable to affect SHIELD-protected Spider-Woman. Thor's low showings outnumber his high showings in that series, and the few good ones he has could be reasonably argued against.Imo, it can very well be dismissed as PIS, because in the same series Thor got handled by no less than 5 beings that were being empowered by differing quantities of the Force's might(with even the arguably weakest incarnations of said hosts being able to defeat Thor relatively easily). But even if you discount that, I specifically mentioned that it can be either PIS OR invalid/inconsequential(based on the poor durability showings of Force in the past). Hurting/Injuring a being that has been shattered into a billion billion pieces by an arguably mid-herald(?) mutant doesn't seem all that impressive on Thor's resume if you ask me.
As I said before, Fraction's run is the only saving grace for Thor in recent times, a point I am sure you'll agree with me.
Thor's mental resistances fluctuate. His history suggests that, and he's got some incredible showings outside of AvX. And if we limit things purely to AvX, he resisted two psychic assaults and fell to Xavier. So, by feats, we've seen him resist two focused assaults and fall to a massive one...where Spider-Woman didn't. So, how could Thor resisting Emma and Rachel be considered PIS but Thor falling alongside the rest of the Avengers to Xavier, save Jessica via "Shield implants" (ie. plot device) isn't? Doesn't really make sense.
And Thor's history has shown him effecting beings far outside his weight class on a consistent basis. Him doing so to the Phoenix Force when he's effected a Celestial, Galactus, Chaos King, and skyfathers virtually every time he's faced them isn't really PIS.
It's not the only saving grace, but certainly an important factor if you want to serious discuss whether or not Thor's standing should be altered one way or the other.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
As I said before, Fraction's run is the only saving grace for Thor in recent times, a point I am sure you'll agree with me.
Originally posted by comicfan11
It's in my "to do list"
But one ongoing is not going to make all his team and event book humiliations go away.And again I'm with you as far as where Thor SHOULD be in Marvel's hierarchy.
The problem is that Marvel does it's best to change our minds.So to close this thread (for my side at least), I believe that Thor as things are now, CAN actually loose this fight, and his placement as first in the gauntlet, makes sense.
What Marvel, publishes week after week is what forms current continuity and in this current continuity, things don't look good for Thor.You can argue his past showings and history (and of course they count), but the last months have only done damage to Thor's image, and I'm pretty sure all the jokes and humiliating posts on expense of Thor, from the majority of the posters, pretty much confirm that.
Cheers, and hope Marvel come's to their senses.
Well, his ongoing should have a huge role in how you, me, or anyone else views the character. You certainly wouldn't base Spider-Man's performance based solely off of team books and events would you? Or Hulk's? Or Iron Man's? Etc, etc, etc. Team books drive events and paint the picture of the world these characters inhabit as a whole, but the self-titled books are what define them and focus nearly exclusively on them. To that end, they hold more than a little bit of weight and I'm fairly confident no one should be able to argue against that.
I really don't see it. Thor's been marginalized in AvX and Bendis' Avengers franchise over the past few months (I'd reread the Heroic Age of Avengers to see the very same Bendis having Thor knock Galactus back and generally save the day at the end), true, but when you look at all the crazy shit Thor's done over the past two years, I'm not sure how anyone can say he's less powerful.
Under forum rules concerning character performances, I can see Thor winning this. It's not impossible for the team to win in any case, either.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor's mental resistances fluctuate. His history suggests that, and he's got some incredible showings outside of AvX. And if we limit things purely to AvX, he resisted two psychic assaults and fell to Xavier. So, by feats, we've seen him resist two focused assaults and fall to a massive one...where Spider-Woman didn't. So, how could Thor resisting Emma and Rachel be considered PIS but Thor falling alongside the rest of the Avengers to Xavier, save Jessica via "Shield implants" (ie. plot device) isn't? Doesn't really make sense.And Thor's history has shown him effecting beings far outside his weight class on a consistent basis. Him doing so to the Phoenix Force when he's effected a Celestial, Galactus, Chaos King, and skyfathers virtually every time he's faced them isn't really PIS.
It's not the only saving grace, but certainly an important factor if you want to serious discuss whether or not Thor's standing should be altered one way or the other.
Nope, I wasn't referring to Thor resisting Emma and Rachel as PIS, I was using him being put to sleep by Xavier as an example of gross inconsistencies within that series and how it is poor example to use in this case(highlighted before). Emma's tp feats(up until the point where her portion of the PF significantly increased in quantity) also left quite a lot to be desired(the Rulk incident), which again suggests that Thor resisting her tp is dismissible as well.
The Celestials incident is absolutely dismissible as PIS as well, unless one is willing to consider the fact that Thor is capable of outperforming multiple skyfathers and an amped Odin. Not to mention that neither the Celestials nor Galactus have had durability showings so poor that Thor's performance against them could be considered dismissible/invalid/inconsequential(a point I raised previously as well).
Well, seeing how it is the only series in recent times where Thor's high-end feats dwarf his low showings(instead of the opposite being the case), I don't see why it isn't his only saving grace in recent times. Though once Hickman takes the helms, I'd be inclined to agree with you.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
But this entire discussion IS about AvX and how it is a poor example to be using in order to highlight Thor's rare high-end feats in non-Thor titles these days.Nope, I wasn't referring to Thor resisting Emma and Rachel as PIS, I was using him being put to sleep by Xavier. Emma's tp feats(up until the point where her portion of the PF significantly increased in quantity) also left quite a lot to be desired(the Rulk incident), which again suggests that Thor resisting her tp is dismissible as well.
The Celestials incident is absolutely dismissible as PIS as well, unless one is willing to consider the fact that Thor is capable of outperforming multiple skyfathers and an amped Odin. Not to mention that neither the Celestials nor Galactus have had durability showings so poor that Thor's performance against them could be considered dismissible/invalid/inconsequential(a point I raised previously as well).
Well, seeing how iit is the only series in recent times where Thor's high-end feats dwarf his low showings(instead of the opposite being the case), I don't see why it isn't his only saving grace in recent times. Though once Hickman takes the helms, I'd be inclined to agree with you.
If AvX is a crap event - which it was - concerning both characters and feats - which it was - I don't see how or why it should be given so much precedence in the first place. I certainly don't see how certain feats could but others shouldn't.
High end feats are just that. High end feats. And consistently, when it comes to high end feats, Thor's entire history completely suggest him effecting people such as those I've mentioned. Virtually every high herald has them in some form or another. We shouldn't use them as a baseline representation for the character anymore than we should use the low end feats. They're all canon and 'count', but really, it's not hard to see what counts as an average and what doesn't.
Every past major Marvel event since Thor's rebirth has given Thor at lease one impressive feat of some sort. Secret Invasion had Thor BFR Janet to the Microverse, effectively containing planetary destruction. Siege had Thor fight Sentry and kill the Void. Fear Itself had Thor fight Hulk/Thing and win and kill the Serpent. AvX had Thor clip the Phoenix Force's wings.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
If AvX is a crap event - which it was - concerning both characters and feats - which it was - I don't see how or why it should be given so much precedence in the first place. I certainly don't see how certain feats could but others shouldn't.High end feats are just that. High end feats. And consistently, when it comes to high end feats, Thor's entire history completely suggest him effecting people such as those I've mentioned. Virtually every high herald has them in some form or another. We shouldn't use them as a baseline representation for the character anymore than we should use the low end feats. They're all canon and 'count', but really, it's not hard to see what counts as an average and what doesn't.
Every past major Marvel event since Thor's rebirth has given Thor at lease one impressive feat of some sort.
I am not arguing against Thor's high-end feats, I am arguing that if it's not a PIS incident, why his performance against the Phoenix Force entity should be considered a "high feat" at all? Because, as I said before, hurting/injuring an entity with a historically poor record in terms of durability showings can hardly be considered impressive on his resume. Btw, being canon doesn't automatically entail that they should count if they are also PIS feats. By forum rules they are inadmissible in VS threads, but that's a discussion for another time.
AvX hasn't. But with Hickman, there is some hope(notwithstanding his trollish comments on Formspring that Doon posted on Character Ownage).
Based off Thor recent showings, Mid Herald would even be to high for him. Low Herald would be more appropriate. Writers need to do a lot of work in order to fix the damage they did to Thor and if what I read is correct about Thor dying, yet again after being brought back to life, his stock would make Terrax look like a skyfather.
Originally posted by comicfan11
LOL what?
Thor will die, again?
Source?
Originally posted by carver9
Based off Thor recent showings, Mid Herald would even be to high for him. Low Herald would be more appropriate. Writers need to do a lot of work in order to fix the damage they did to Thor and if what I read is correct about Thor dying, yet again after being brought back to life, his stock would make Terrax look like a skyfather.
Originally posted by carver9
I hate citizenbane. I'm not lowballing anything...I just agree with comic comments.
I don't see you agreeing or even acknowledging Fraction's run though.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Why? Because he got you banned? Don't worry karma caught upto him and his Thor-lowballing buddy-in-arms Erik got recently banned as well. Out of butthurt, CitizenBane doesn't see any point in posting on comicvine anymore(he even posted that message on his wall).I don't see you agreeing or even acknowledging Fraction's run though.
I didn't get banned. I don't like him because of his lowballing of Thor and Hulk and ignoring fts along with a lot of other things.
I did acknowledge fractions Thor. What has Thor done in his own title. I remember him taking on a realm full of trolls...what else did he do in his title?
Originally posted by carver9
I didn't get banned. I don't like him because of his lowballing of Thor and Hulk and ignoring fts along with a lot of other things.I did acknowledge fractions Thor. What has Thor done in his own title. I remember him taking on a realm full of trolls...what else did he do in his title?
You need to actually read Fraction's run then.