Imperium of Man vs Galactic Empire

Originally posted by ares834
Nah, it was in the Maw Instillation which was under Admiral Daala's command. It was still part of the Empire even if the majority of them were unaware of them.

Also it appears Palpatine was aware of the Maw Installation.

"Due to the secret nature of the experiments being done at the Maw, outside communications were, for the most part, forbidden. With the exception of this circuit, Daala and her crew were cut off from the rest of the galaxy save for the Emperor himself, and perhaps Darth Vader."

Everything I've read on the subject points out that the Emperor did /not/ know about the sun crusher. Just being a GE installation doesn't mean anything if the GE doesn't know it's there to make use of it.

Otherwise the Imperium suddenly gains use of all the schematics they've lost, and possibly even Blackstone Fortresses.

Hardly. Even if the Emperor does not know about the Sun Crusher, other Imperials such as Daala and the scientist that worked on it do.

This isn't some lost piece of technology like the Katana fleet, the Sun Crusher is directly under Imperial control. In this case, Daala's.

Hardly. Even if the Emperor does not know about the Sun Crusher, other Imperials such as Daala and the scientist that worked on it do.

And they continue to sit in Maw installation undisturbed until ABY 11.

the Sun Crusher is directly under Imperial control. In this case, Daala's.

Here's a thought, how about the surviving loyalist Primarchs return? That would be great, wouldn't it? I mean, they're part of the Imperium, are they not? (Protip: Not at the time this war occurs, and neither is the sun crusher present before Endor)

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
And they continue to sit in Maw installation undisturbed until ABY 11. It is not under imperial control because Daala isn't the Emperor, not does Daala have contact with said Emperor.

The quote I posted directly states Palpatine has communications with Daala...

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Here's a thought, how about the surviving loyalist Primarchs return? That would be great, wouldn't it? I mean, they're part of the Imperium, are they not? (Protip: Not at the time this war occurs, and neither is the sun crusher present before Endor)

Yeah, not comparable at all. Try again.

Edit: Although I guess the Lion awakening is a possibility.

"The Sun Crusher was built by using funds diverted from the Death Star I project by the Maw Installation that was secretly built by Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin for the development of experimental weapons technologies. He then assigned the Maw Installation to Admiral Natasi Daala, a female Imperial Navy officer. Unknown even to Emperor Palpatine, the Maw Installation was quickly forgotten after Tarkin's death at the Battle of Yavin."

Here, have a conflicting quote.

Entirely comparable. You're trying to give the GE an advantage they do not have at the point in their history from which they are attacking the IoM in this thread. Period. Same thing.

Even so, the Suncrusher would blow up all of one star before the Imperium teleported teminators on board and packed it with melta charges.

That's from Wookieepedia... Hardly, a legitimate source. My quote was from the novel Death Star.

And, no, I'm hardly trying to give the GE an advantage. As I've already said, I've seen no proof that the Sun Crusher was built as of Endor. However, as the novel's quote shows us, Palpatine could contact the Maw Instillation. It wasn't lost like many of the Primarchs are.

And the Jedi Academy Trilogy specifies that he didn't know. It's also worth pointing out the horrible inconsistencies him knowing of it would cause. The Deathstar that all of the fuss of the original trilogy was about? Small potatoes.

The Suncrusher's existence is irrelevant because it wasn't accounted for. It was, indeed, lost.

Provide the quote from the Jedi Academy trilogy that says that Sideous didn't know.

Checkmate.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
And the Jedi Academy Trilogy specifies that he didn't know. It's also worth pointing out the horrible inconsistencies him knowing of it would cause.

Quote from the novel?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The Deathstar that all of the fuss of the original trilogy was about? Small potatoes.

Palpatine may not have know of the Sun Crusher. Furthermore, the Sun Crusher can't store a fleet nor does it have the same size. When the Sun Crusher appears in your system you won't know unless the Empire tells you, but when the DS appears it dominates the sky. A clear sign of Imperial might and power which says "submit or die".

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The Suncrusher's existence is irrelevant because it wasn't accounted for. It was, indeed, lost.

Quote?

Here's a website where you can download every Star Wars book Scream. If you actually want to check.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Provide the quote from the Jedi Academy trilogy that says that Sideous didn't know.

Checkmate.

Whatever, I just realized I'm arguing with the OP about what the GE can have in his own thread. Neat. While he is technically wrong because this is the GE as of ABY 4 and Daala was completely unaware of anything outside the Maw Instillation until ABY 11, fine, they can have the Sun crusher.

Even so, the Sun crusher would blow up all of one star before the Imperium teleported teminators on board and packed it with melta charges.

Big difference that made.

The Sun Crusher also uses torpedo's, of which I doubt they have an unlimited or even sizable amount. They aren't beating the Imperium with just that. It could do unspeakable damage if it destroyed the Forge Worlds and killed the Emperor though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Sun Crusher also uses torpedo's, of which I doubt they have an unlimited or even sizable amount. They aren't beating the Imperium with just that. It could do unspeakable damage if it destroyed the Forge Worlds and killed the Emperor though.

Terra is one of over a million worlds, the odds of the Sun crusher getting it by chance are extremely poor, and the Imperium will know the threat it poses before it ever nears Terra.

Then Terminators.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You're doing that thing again. The one I keep telling you to stop doing.

Whatever, I just realized I'm arguing with the OP about what the GE can have in his own thread. Neat. While he is technically wrong because this is the GE as of ABY 4 and Daala was completely unaware of anything outside the Maw Instillation until ABY 11, fine, they can have the Sun crusher.

Big difference that made.

Anyway, the Imperium's communication is so terrible that it would take literally years for them to figure out what was attacking them, and by then it would be too late. In the Imperial Guard codex it's pointed out that it took over a hundred years for the Adeptus Munitorum to notice that some Guardsmen regiment had stopped sending reports, at which point they declared the regiment to be traitor renegades, when the reality is that they were destroyed in the Warp over a century prior. lawlz.

Imperium sensors are designed to detect fleets via their warp signatures- The Empire does not use the warp - thus the Imperium will basically be blind up until the moment that the fleet comes out of Hyperspace. Imperium defenses are designed to deal with forces that travel in the same manner that they do, taking months, even years (Eisenhorn) to travel across the Galaxy. The Empire can travel from one end of the galaxy to the other in a week.

There never will be a time where the Imperium collectively is aware of what's going on. Eventually the Empire will capture and interrogate enough people to figure out what Terra is and where it is (to my knowledge, the physical location of Terra has never been a big secret, more likely, the Imperium relies on the fact that no sane creature would assault their most heavily guarded sanctum), and then it's Crusher time.

As well, unless the Imperium actually captured the Sun-Crusher, they would have no idea that it exists, or of its capabilities. So even if they figured out that there was this massive fleet of ships wandering around the Galaxy, destroying Imperum planets, they could very well fortify Terra and Mars with everything they've got, they still wouldn't be prepared for a 30 foot long ship that has zero warp-signature to suddenly appear at the sun, and shoot a missile into it.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I'm not sure how telling you to provide evidence of the claim you're making is trolling, lol. I know that you don't have the JA academy and probably got that statement from Wookiepedia, but I think it's a common courtesy for everyone to have at least working knowledge of the universe's they're arguing about.

Anyway, the Imperium's communication is so terrible that it would take literally years for them to figure out what was attacking them, and by then it would be too late. In the Imperial Guard codex it's pointed out that it took over a hundred years for the Adeptus Munitorum to notice that some Guardsmen regiment had stopped sending reports, at which point they declared the regiment to be traitor renegades, when the reality is that they were destroyed in the Warp over a century prior. lawlz.

Imperium sensors are designed to detect fleets via their warp signatures- The Empire does not use the warp - thus the Imperium will basically be blind up until the moment that the fleet comes out of Hyperspace. Imperium defenses are designed to deal with forces that travel in the same manner that they do, taking months, even years (Eisenhorn) to travel across the Galaxy. The Empire can travel from one end of the galaxy to the other in a week.

There never will be a time where the Imperium collectively is aware of what's going on. Eventually the Empire will capture and interrogate enough people to figure out what Terra is and where it is (to my knowledge, the physical location of Terra has never been a big secret, more likely, the Imperium relies on the fact that no sane creature would assault their most heavily guarded sanctum), and then it's Crusher time.

As well, unless the Imperium actually captured the Sun-Crusher, they would have no idea that it exists, or of its capabilities. So even if they figured out that there was this massive fleet of ships wandering around the Galaxy, destroying Imperum planets, they could very well fortify Terra and Mars with everything they've got, they still wouldn't be prepared for a 30 foot long ship that has zero warp-signature to suddenly appear at the sun, and shoot a missile into it.

The sun crusher is a non-factor, NemeBro already pointed out the Imperium can do the same thing the Suncrusher does with it's own weapons, and they're not limited to 11 shots. It will be boarded.

Astropaths are actually a surprisingly /good/ method of FTL communication, what you described isn't a communication failure, it's communication having never been sent.

Months and years are not the norm, and you and I both know as much. It's just as possible to arrive before the distress call is sent as to arrive a year later. The Tyranid fluff indicates that the standard travel time for Imperial responses is actually just weeks.

Which is moot because there are always local defenses. Anything less than a dedicated force will be shot apart by the extant forces, it will be costly, and they cannot win naval confrontations. No matter where the Imperium attacks, that's a world lost for the Empire.

The Imperium has held the Orks, the Tyranids, the Eldar, the Necrons, and Chaos all at bay simultaneously. With none of them factoring into the mix, and the Imperium's combined attention on the GE, the GE is massively outclassed. Just Mars and Terra created hundreds of thousands of ships in a few decades, according to Thousand Sons. The production of the combined Imperium set to a war effort against one enemy? That's not to be trifled with, particularly when short of the sun crusher itself, the GE severely lacks in ships that can combat those fielded by the Imperium.

Interrogation? Lol. That's not a one sided affair, either. The Inquisition is no longer busy with xenos and heretics. They can extract just as much information from the Empire. Things like how Hyperspace routes work. Shame the Empire can't touch the warp.

Blowing up the Terran sun? The crusher would be boarded or even destroyed before getting its' shot off, assuming they somehow found Terra (probing even the nearest systems to their invasion point would take the Empire months and they have no idea the importance of Terra.

They unveil some shiny super weapon to try and intimidate the Imperium and what happens? They've shown their hand, it's over. The Imperium cannot be intimidated, especially not by weapons that do things their own weapons can. It gets boarded and destroyed or taken, the only planet it could possibly destroy that could win it the war is Terra, and the odds of that happening are piss poor. It's a longer shot than is worth discussing. It will never happen in ten times. Not even in a hundred. We would have to have this debate a hundred thousand times before the option was worth discussing.

The Imperium for all it's faults isn't run by complete retards. It only takes seeing the sun crusher fire once, and having the astropath aboard a vessel in the system send out a message. Or even jump into the warp, where they're untouchable, and go somewhere to deliver the news personally. This isn't complicated.

How many Psykers serve the Imperium? And how many of them are high-level Psykers? I was browsing Lexicanum and it seemed to imply that some Psykers have predictive capabilities. Dunno if that's true, but IF it is, it is certainly a very useful tool for the Imperium.

Does the GE regularly employ force-users?

Another point to consider is the length of time a war of this magnitude would take to prosecute. During that time, it is very feasible that both sides might gain access to some of each other's technology. So it's entirely possible that GE will be warp-capable and the Imperium might have FTL-technology. Something to think about.

Originally posted by AmbientFire
How many Psykers serve the Imperium? And how many of them are high-level Psykers? I was browsing Lexicanum and it seemed to imply that some Psykers have predictive capabilities. Dunno if that's true, but IF it is, it is certainly a very useful tool for the Imperium.

Does the GE regularly employ force-users?

Another point to consider is the length of time a war of this magnitude would take to prosecute. During that time, it is very feasible that both sides might gain access to some of each other's technology. So it's entirely possible that GE will be warp-capable and the Imperium might have FTL-technology. Something to think about.

Given the population of the Imperium, the number of psykers probably numbers in the trillions. It would be impossible to figure out just how many are high-level, though Alpha Plus psykers, the kind that can snap Titans in half with a gesture, would be extraordinarily rare. But yes, there are many psykers that are skilled in divination, so predicting that say, Terra would be attacked, would lead to even higher heightened security around the Sol System.

Also, no, I doubt either sides would do that. The GE lacks navigators and astropaths to guide their ships through the warp, and if they happen to not have a Gellar field on them, well, have you seen Event Horizon? Besides, Hyperspace is much, much better then warp-travel. The Imperium wouldn't gain FTL travel either, as the Mechanicum of Mars would likely declare everything in the GE to be tech-heresy.

Ship sizes:http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/123120/2462962-ship_chart.jpg

Space Marine to Clone combat, I'd say the 40K have a severe advantage overall.

Gentlemen, let me start by saying that I am greatly honored to be chosen for command of such a magnificent vessel. That said, our insystem shakedown cruise has turned up a few minor issues that I would like to see remedied as soon as possible.

1) We understand your desire to continue the classical stylized lines of the first star destroyer class vessels, and we appreciate your asthetic sense in that regard. However, strictly speaking, was it absolutely necessary to scale up the bridge tower directly? I must confess the foreward bridge window is a great distraction. Militarily, we feel that as is, the three kilometer tall window pane may provide too tempting a target for enemy forces we may engage. We've lost four helmsmen so far to vertigo as well, and we don't think this is in the best interests of the vessel's well-being.

2) The sheer size of our vessel, while a glorious symbol of the mighty Emperor, which we all appreciate completely, has become apparent to us all. My intial briefing tour of the vessel took six days to complete, and the travel tubes were based on the design in use aboard rhe slightly smaller Executor-class vessels. Travel time being prohibitive, we were forced to camp out in the corridors of the major sectors when we stopped for the night. Furthermore, since our crew quarters sections are located entirely within the aft dorsal sectors, both our Engineering crew and ground forces complements have built tent cities within their own sections, and are living there.

3) On a similar note, regarding the unfortunate loss of our last CMO, we have finally decided that the staff requirements of this vessel are creating further problems. For instance, our Chief Engineer has begun the habit of signing his reports, "Chief Marshall, Soveriegn Nation of Ree'Ak'tor." He has since sealed off those decks, and started a war. The war in question is against his apparent rival, the commander of our ground forces near the main flightdeck, who has taken to calling himself "Bringer of the Apocalypse."

Survaillance records indicate that they have since stopped wearing their armor, and have begun smearing their bodies with industrial cleaning fluid and lubricants before launching raids upon the Engineering department. We believe that they have begun ritualistically sacrificing one of our TIE-fighter pilots before each attack to bring them luck.

Aside from a minor note that some of our turbolaser turret gunners may have starved to death when their food shipments were cut off by the warzone, there is little else to remark on, save that in our first tactical drill, during the course of a two-hour right turn, we failed to halt our rotation with the result of the subsequent and very unfortunate destruction of the entire Coruscant 4th Defensive Fleet. I've made a note to send out letters of regret the moment we reaquire contact with our communications room at the bow of the vessel. That of course is the reason why this message had to be sent to your offices via pen, paper, and one of our probe droids. I beg forgivness for the clerical difficulties that may cause.

This always amused me. EU Star Wars is lulz. mmm

Originally posted by Robtard
Ship sizes:http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/123120/2462962-ship_chart.jpg

Space Marine to Clone combat, I'd say the 40K have a severe advantage overall.

Well, the GE sure has the bigger penis-ship.