Originally posted by dadudemon
Jane has a limit: I think Bella said dozens a second when it comes to how many "pain" darts she throws. That is a clear limit. And Alec's sense block thing is a mist/cloud that people have to enter to become nulled. That is a clear limit, as well.Actually, it works just fine against humans. Bella was a special exception because she was the only human/vampire to have a special ability to block mental vampire abilities. Jane tried to use it against Bella in the second movie/book but it failed much to Jane's chagrin. Edward feared that it may kill Bella (jane's pain thing) because a vampire experienced tons of agony so a human may die from an aneurism or heart attack...just guessing was to why Edward feared Bella's death. Anyway, why would Edward care if she was hit with Jane's attack and why would Jane try to use it against Bella if it didn't work against humans? 🙂
Never said it wouldn't work against humans. When did I say that? Just stated that it's failed before. And against a human (Bella).
Thing is, those abilities have failed before against beings with any kind of mental shielding. Yet ppl seem to assume that they would always work even against ppl who have proven to have mental resistance. That is a no-limits fallacy IMO.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The problem is that a laser can't dodge the lightsaber at vampire speeds. If a Jedi puts his lightsaber in the way of a vampire, they will just move around it.
Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
dude please, i guess you can't read..shame though.. i won't explain what i said
Lol, wut? "posting some ignorant photoshop image won't that fact the jedi win" is an example of what's wrong with this forum. People (like you here) pick their favorites to win, despite the overwhelming evidence that they in fact lose.
The Twivamps are too fast, too strong and have too many odd powers. I love the Jedi, but you don't see me fanboying.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Never said it wouldn't work against humans. When did I say that? Just stated that it's failed before. And against a human (Bella).Thing is, those abilities have failed before against beings with any kind of mental shielding. Yet ppl seem to assume that they would always work even against ppl who have proven to have mental resistance. That is a no-limits fallacy IMO.
So which other beings are you talking about where those powers failed?
Those abilities have never failed against anyone else except Bella. Bella, whom although human, has a specific power that completely negates mental powers on her.
Bella doesn't just have some mental resistance, she is COMPLETELY mentally shielded. She doesn't even have to put effort into it. That is not the same as some other telepaths who need to put effort into shielding themselves like Prof. X or Jean Grey.
Simply having mental discipline or mental powers does not make the person immune to Jane. Now you're acting as if anyone with any sort of mental powers (like the Jedi) have a chance at countering Jane. That's just plain silly.
Originally posted by FrothByte
So which other beings are you talking about where those powers failed?Those abilities have never failed against anyone else except Bella. Bella, whom although human, has a specific power that completely negates mental powers on her.
Bella doesn't just have some mental resistance, she is COMPLETELY mentally shielded. She doesn't even have to put effort into it. That is not the same as some other telepaths who need to put effort into shielding themselves like Prof. X or Jean Grey.
Simply having mental discipline or mental powers does not make the person immune to Jane. Now you're acting as if anyone with any sort of mental powers (like the Jedi) have a chance at countering Jane. That's just plain silly.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Who said anything about Jedi?
I was talking about the no limits fallacy going around with some arguments on the board. Not once did I mention anything to do with the Jedi. Why would you make up a position I never even alluded to and in fact made a point to mention that I never alluded to it? Did you not read my replies?
Originally posted by Nibedicus
I was talking about the no limits fallacy going around with some arguments on the board. Not once did I mention anything to do with the Jedi. Why would you make up a position I never even alluded to and in fact made a point to mention that I never alluded to it? Did you not read my replies?
Because this thread is about Jedi's?
Fine, you're not talking about Jedi's. Can you please state an example of someone else besides Bella countering Jane? How can it be a no limits fallacy when dadudemon already stated the limits of Jane's powers?
If you want a real example of a no limits fallacy, how bout Wolverine being able to heal from each and every injury. Or how about Batman beating anyone as long as he has prep time.
Bella isn't just "some human". She is human with powers.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Because this thread is about Jedi's?Fine, you're not talking about Jedi's. Can you please state an example of someone else besides Bella countering Jane? How can it be a no limits fallacy when dadudemon already stated the limits of Jane's powers?
If you want a real example of a no limits fallacy, how bout Wolverine being able to heal from each and every injury. Or how about Batman beating anyone as long as he has prep time.
Bella isn't just "some human". She is human with powers.
Ok, to put it simply:
Bella's power has been shown to block out other mental powers. Since no1 (other than her daughter) has been able to bypass her powers, ppl assume that her powers would block out anyone's power regardless of power levels even tho, on screen, we've only seen her powers block 1) basic telepathy (Edward) 2) Illusions/mental powers of varying degrees by other vampires. Again this is regardless of what other powers and mental resistances are demonstrated by the targets Example: Phoenix, Prof X (no limits fallacy no.1).
And since Bella has been the only one who has been able to block Jane's powers and there seems to be no limits to what she can block, then ppl assume that Jane's powers automatically affect anyone else (other than Bella) regardless of what abilities/resistance/training the other person has (no limits fallacy no. 2).
That is why we should debate "Feat-to-feat". What is the strongest power/who is the strongest telepath she resisted? Who is the strongest will/most mental training that these powers worked against? Then we can establish the range in which her powers can be debated to work against. And not "just because it worked on everyone in her world thus it works on everyone period.".
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Ok, to put it simply:Bella's power has been shown to block out other mental powers. Since no1 (other than her daughter) has been able to bypass her powers, ppl assume that her powers would block out anyone's power regardless of power levels even tho, on screen, we've only seen her powers block 1) basic telepathy (Edward) 2) Illusions/mental powers of varying degrees by other vampires. Again this is regardless of what other powers and mental resistances are demonstrated by the targets Example: Phoenix, Prof X (no limits fallacy no.1).
And since Bella has been the only one who has been able to block Jane's powers and there seems to be no limits to what she can block, then ppl assume that Jane's powers automatically affect anyone else (other than Bella) regardless of what abilities/resistance/training the other person has (no limits fallacy no. 2).
That is why we should debate "Feat-to-feat". What is the strongest power/who is the strongest telepath she resisted? Who is the strongest will/most mental training that these powers worked against? Then we can establish the range in which her powers can be debated to work against. And not "just because it worked on everyone in her world thus it works on everyone period.".
You're looking at this wrong. You mistake quantity over quality.
Just because Edward's telepathy only allows him to read minds, that doesn't mean that he's not strong at it. He may not have as varied powers as Prof. X does, but he's very strong at what he can do. He automatically, effortlessly hears the thoughts of everyone around him. In the movies he's shown he's able to do this even if not within line of sight of said persons.
Aro's power allows him to know everything on your mind, from your very past to the present, with a simple touch. Neither Prof. X or Phoenix has ever shown telepathy that strong in such a short time. Bella had no problems blocking that out either.
Now before you say "but none of the vamps have ever stopped a whole room of people in their tracks", that's because none of the vamps have this particular power. I could also say that neither Prof. X or Phoenix has every shown they can cut off somebody completely from their senses... and Bella blocked that too.
It doesn't matter how strong the mental powers of the person is, Bella doesn't need to fight them off. Their powers just slip off her. So Jane's power not working on her is not a show of weakness from Jane's point of view.
Point is, Jane has been able to perform her mind pain on every single target she's tried it on (except bella). She's inflicted this on other vamps with mind powers.
If you want to claim that someone with sufficient mind powers can fight off jane's pain, then it's up to you to provide proof.
Originally posted by FrothByte
You're looking at this wrong. You mistake quantity over quality.Just because Edward's telepathy only allows him to read minds, that doesn't mean that he's not strong at it. He may not have as varied powers as Prof. X does, but he's very strong at what he can do. He automatically, effortlessly hears the thoughts of everyone around him. In the movies he's shown he's able to do this even if not within line of sight of said persons.
Aro's power allows him to know everything on your mind, from your very past to the present, with a simple touch. Neither Prof. X or Phoenix has ever shown telepathy that strong in such a short time. Bella had no problems blocking that out either.
Now before you say "but none of the vamps have ever stopped a whole room of people in their tracks", that's because none of the vamps have this particular power. I could also say that neither Prof. X or Phoenix has every shown they can cut off somebody completely from their senses... and Bella blocked that too.
It doesn't matter how strong the mental powers of the person is, Bella doesn't need to fight them off. Their powers just slip off her. So Jane's power not working on her is not a show of weakness from Jane's point of view.
Point is, Jane has been able to perform her mind pain on every single target she's tried it on (except bella). She's inflicted this on other vamps with mind powers.
If you want to claim that someone with sufficient mind powers can fight off jane's pain, then it's up to you to provide proof.
And you're looking at my argument wrong.
Some of what you're doing is PRECISELY what I want to happen here. People need to argue degrees and levels and argue what is shown on-screen, not just simply go "Jane incapacitates X, Bella blocks Y" they need to show on screen proof of levels and range. That's it. If you can provide that, good on you. But you need to provide it.
One question, tho. Why is the burden of proof always on the other end when discussing w/c powers affect who? Isn't proving anything required on both sides?
For example, I can provide proof that Prof X has fought off high level illusions for DAYS even while his power was blocked (vs Jason Stryker @ Mutants United) thus I can argue hr'd be ab,e to resist Jane's powers easily, especially with his powers up.
Edit. What seemed like days anyway, been a while since I watched Mutants United.
The burden of proof always falls on the one who claims something should/shouldn't happen, but has not been shown yet .
For example, if I claim that Anderson Silva can beat every other MMA fighter out there, and you claim that he can't, burden of proof falls to you since it has been shown that Silva beat every MMA fighter out there... thus my point already has standing proof (until proven wrong). Your claim "that someone can beat him" still needs to be proven since it hasn't happened yet.
Now apply that here. I claim that Jane's powers work on everyone not name Bella. I don't need to prove that because so far, it already has standing proof. Her power has always been shown to work unless faced with Bella.
Now you claim that it won't work on someone with sufficient mind powers (who is not Bella), but that has never been shown yet. All the other beings she has tried her powers on, whether that person had mind powers or not, has been affected. That is why you need to provide the proof, because so far no one else has been able to do what you're claiming.
Now I want to correct something I said earlier. I don't believe Bella actually had mind powers, at least not until she became a vamp. From how Edward describes her, her mind is like a blank wall, and Bella thinks there's something wrong with her. I mean, sure you can call that a power, but (my opinion only), a power is something you can utilize and have some degree of control on. Bella's blank mind... it seemed more a deformity than a power.
Originally posted by FrothByte
The burden of proof always falls on the one who claims something should/shouldn't happen, but has not been shown yet .For example, if I claim that Anderson Silva can beat every other MMA fighter out there, and you claim that he can't, burden of proof falls to you since it has been shown that Silva beat every MMA fighter out there... thus my point already has standing proof (until proven wrong). Your claim "that someone can beat him" still needs to be proven since it hasn't happened yet.
Now apply that here. I claim that Jane's powers work on everyone not name Bella. I don't need to prove that because so far, it already has standing proof. Her power has always been shown to work unless faced with Bella.
Now you claim that it won't work on someone with sufficient mind powers (who is not Bella), but that has never been shown yet. All the other beings she has tried her powers on, whether that person had mind powers or not, has been affected. That is why you need to provide the proof, because so far no one else has been able to do what you're claiming.
Now I want to correct something I said earlier. I don't believe Bella actually had mind powers, at least not until she became a vamp. From how Edward describes her, her mind is like a blank wall, and Bella thinks there's something wrong with her. I mean, sure you can call that a power, but (my opinion only), a power is something you can utilize and have some degree of control on. Bella's blank mind... it seemed more a deformity than a power.
Actually, burden of proof falls on the person who said something happens. Claiming Jane's powers would work on someone is a positive and proof needs to be proven.
And your example is wrong. What would be more accurate would be to claim that Anderson Silva never lost a fight in MMA (not true, I know, as he's lost 2 fights IIRC) thus no one in the world can beat him in any fight. Even fictional ones against fictional MMA battles against superstrong/fast opponents.
You're comparing apples and oranges here, that is why establishing range is important.
And I'm sorry just because something has been shown to work on everything within a limited sample, does not mean that it works on everything else. That is the definition of what a no-limits fallacy is (from Wiki):
The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.
Also, Bella did have "powers" per se. But the reason of her powers (according to what I remember in the movie and read in Wiki anyway) was her "mind" which was "closed to the world" due to her personality like her dad's (that personality trait then got enhanced when she became a vamp). Not really impressive basis of degrees tbh.
Your right I think twilight would beat those three jedi ( funnily, no-one has mentioned the wolves yet surely they are also in the twilight universe). Sheer force (soz) of numbers would be their downfall. So I move for this thread rules to be altered to include the following:
Windu
Yoda
If you really want to give the jedi an advantage and have it for any jedi that existed dont forget:
Quinlan Vos
Luke Skywalker
Daughter (any not familiar with the SWEU look it up. She kicks serious ass and would pound Jane into pulp)
Please, if these rules are agreed to, no-one start bringing Sith into it.
Jedi win then. It's either you give Twilight a massive numbers advantage and they win due to having the luxury of sacrificing 2+ to kill one, or the Jedi stomp with equal or almost equal numbers.
FFS, watch the Twilight fight scenes, they have trouble dodging gigantic wolves, they have no defense against a lightsabre or Force attacks.
Yoda: "**** yourselves, you all will."
*Twivamps proceed to **** themselves*
Originally posted by RobtardToo many in this scenario.
Jedi win then. It's either you give Twilight a massive numbers advantage and they win due to having the luxury of sacrificing 2+ to kill one, or the Jedi stomp with equal or almost equal numbers.FFS, watch the Twilight fight scenes, they have trouble dodging gigantic wolves, they have no defense against a lightsabre or Force attacks.
Yoda: "**** yourselves, you all will."
*Twivamps proceed to **** themselves*
Originally posted by RobtardThey have trouble dodging the wolves because the wolves are that fast.
Jedi win then. It's either you give Twilight a massive numbers advantage and they win due to having the luxury of sacrificing 2+ to kill one, or the Jedi stomp with equal or almost equal numbers.FFS, watch the Twilight fight scenes, they have trouble dodging gigantic wolves, they have no defense against a lightsabre or Force attacks.
Yoda: "**** yourselves, you all will."
*Twivamps proceed to **** themselves*