Originally posted by ODGI'm not trying to lowball Hulk.
The Mindless Ones' historically inconsistent fodder durability shouldn't serve to reverse-dictate what proper credit Hulk receives for busting that Dark Dimension planet anymore than the Manhunters' historically inconsistent fodder durability shouldn't serve to reverse-dictate what proper credit amped Hal/Arisia get for busting their home planet, Biot. You seem overly fixated on how Mindless Ones are portrayed (and they are admittedly inconsistent), but what about the Dark Dimension planet itself or Umar? Is Umar some week feeb? Does stuff seem easier to break in the Dark Dimension? I mean, if it was a planet of fluff, then present some evidence of that and make that argument.It was a planet. You might be trying to pin down some surreptitious feat projection on the part of Hulk fanboys... but this smells more of the opposite, i.e., Hulk haters trying to lowball the feat irrationally. The Mindless Ones have as much to do with the Dark Dimension planet's durability as the Manhunters do with Biot's durability. That is to say, absolutely none.
And, my stand on the Mindless Ones is mostly in regard to their varying levels of strength and durability being directly linked to the changing and mixed nature of the Dark Dimension. As a matter of fact, for all we know, the parts of the Dark Dimension that the Hulk interacted with, may have been of such a nature that the actions taken by Hulk were even more astronomical than Hulk fans are even stating. Maybe that planet was as dense as a brown star and maybe that region of the dd actually drained gamma from the Hulk, in which case, his feats are more incredible than ever.
But, then again, maybe that planet was made out of spongecake and maybe that region of the dd was actually THE focal point of all gamma energy in the multiverse.
My point is, we don't know. And, there is no way to nail down the properties of the region of the Dark Dimension that the Hulk fought within.
One way or another. So, there is no lowballing going on here.
I would imagine that Umar is likely the most consistent part of the Dark Dimension.
Also, I have posted before that I am and have been of the opinion that the Hulk's powers are not strictly physical and very often, he is moving outside the realm of strength and into areas of energy and matter manipulation. Possibly even a form of reality warping as well.
I don't subscribe to all of his feats being a matter of strength.
Originally posted by Horrificuswut the hell??? if Hulk belonged to a pantheon of gods, he would be the definitive god of strength. he's all about that and then some. you can add anger to that too. god of strength and anger... u done lost ure mind the moment u associated him with matter manip and reality warping. wut in the hell????? nono
I'm not trying to lowball Hulk.And, my stand on the Mindless Ones is mostly in regard to their varying levels of strength and durability being directly linked to the changing and mixed nature of the Dark Dimension. As a matter of fact, for all we know, the parts of the Dark Dimension that the Hulk interacted with, may have been of such a nature that the actions taken by Hulk were even more astronomical than Hulk fans are even stating. Maybe that planet was as dense as a brown star and maybe that region of the dd actually drained gamma from the Hulk, in which case, his feats are more incredible than ever.
But, then again, maybe that planet was made out of spongecake and maybe that region of the dd was actually THE focal point of all gamma energy in the multiverse.
My point is, we don't know. And, there is no way to nail down the properties of the region of the Dark Dimension that the Hulk fought within.
One way or another. So, there is no lowballing going on here.
I would imagine that Umar is likely the most consistent part of the Dark Dimension.
Also, I have posted before that I am and have been of the opinion that the Hulk's powers are not strictly physical and very often, he is moving outside the realm of strength and into areas of energy and matter manipulation. Possibly even a form of reality warping as well.
I don't subscribe to all of his feats being a matter of strength.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17How long have you been reading Hulk?
wut the hell??? if Hulk belonged to a pantheon of gods, he would be the definitive god of strength. he's all about that and then some. you can add anger to that too. god of strength and anger... u done lost ure mind the moment u associated him with matter manip and reality warping. wut in the hell????? nono
Anybody that has been with him for the "long haul" knows that he has done many things that even defy comic book logic.
Originally posted by Horrificus
How long have you been reading Hulk?Anybody that has been with him for the "long haul" knows that he has done many things that even defy comic book logic.
Originally posted by Horrificus
I'm not trying to lowball Hulk.And, my stand on the Mindless Ones is mostly in regard to their varying levels of strength and durability being directly linked to the changing and mixed nature of the Dark Dimension. As a matter of fact, for all we know, the parts of the Dark Dimension that the Hulk interacted with, may have been of such a nature that the actions taken by Hulk were even more astronomical than Hulk fans are even stating. Maybe that planet was as dense as a brown star and maybe that region of the dd actually drained gamma from the Hulk, in which case, his feats are more incredible than ever.
But, then again, maybe that planet was made out of spongecake and maybe that region of the dd was actually THE focal point of all gamma energy in the multiverse.
My point is, we don't know. And, there is no way to nail down the properties of the region of the Dark Dimension that the Hulk fought within.
One way or another. So, there is no lowballing going on here.
I would imagine that Umar is likely the most consistent part of the Dark Dimension.
Also, I have posted before that I am and have been of the opinion that the Hulk's powers are not strictly physical and very often, he is moving outside the realm of strength and into areas of energy and matter manipulation. Possibly even a form of reality warping as well.
I don't subscribe to all of his feats being a matter of strength.
See alot of that is entirely without foundation. The mindless ones fluctuating durability has been do to writer inconsistency not some speculatory connection to the supposedly ambiguous properties of the dark dimension. There is no iota of on panel backing to support there being any sort of deterministic relationship between the dark dimension and the mindless ones durability. They are mutually exclusive.
Moreover, the extents you are taking this supposed dark dimension ambiguity utterly defies reasonability. We definitvely CAN know the plant Hulk destroyed wasnt made out of spongecake or anything similarly flimsy. For one common sense, and authorial intent tends against such absurdity. Secondly, the presence of the mindless ones dimension, which is denser than earth, really definitively nullifies this fantastical thought process of it being some pillow planet.
Then if you accept that Umar is the most consistent part of the dimension, you must of necessity accept the indicated threat that the mindless ones posed to her which consequently invalidates the entire premise of your argument.
Not sure how you can even seriously posit this type of hail mary argument and expect it to stand 😬
Originally posted by Naija boyI'm simply stating the fact that the Dark Dimension is a combination of multiple mystic realms of varying type and composition. This is a fact, not a hail mary argument.
See alot of that is entirely without foundation. The mindless ones fluctuating durability has been do to writer inconsistency not some speculatory connection to the supposedly ambiguous properties of the dark dimension. There is no iota of on panel backing to support there being any sort of deterministic relationship between the dark dimension and the mindless ones durability. They are mutually exclusive.Moreover, the extents you are taking this supposed dark dimension ambiguity utterly defies reasonability. We definitvely CAN know the plant Hulk destroyed wasnt made out of spongecake or anything similarly flimsy. For one common sense, and authorial intent tends against such absurdity. Secondly, the presence of the mindless ones dimension, which is denser than earth, really definitively nullifies this fantastical thought process of it being some pillow planet.
Then if you accept that Umar is the most consistent part of the dimension, you must of necessity accept the indicated threat that the mindless ones posed to her which consequently invalidates the entire premise of your argument.
Not sure how you can even seriously posit this type of hail mary argument and expect it to stand 😬
To state otherwise, is to go against it's entire history and description since it's first appearance.
For instance, there are many times when feats and events that take place outside the 616 universe, are ignored due to lack of definitive knowledge of environment and characters, since they are outside of mainstream continuity.
But, instead of saying the same things over and over, I will have to do a little homework so I can provide scans to support my argument. No problem.
Originally posted by Horrificus
I'm simply stating the fact that the Dark Dimension is a combination of multiple mystic realms of varying type and composition. This is a fact, not a hail mary argument.To state otherwise, is to go against it's entire history and description since it's first appearance.
For instance, there are many times when feats and events that take place outside the 616 universe, are ignored due to lack of definitive knowledge of environment and characters, since they are outside of mainstream continuity.
But, instead of saying the same things over and over, I will have to do a little homework so I can provide scans to support my argument. No problem.
The Dark dimension does have multiple mystic realms with many different properties I did not claim it didnt. That is not what is being disputed here. The issue is that we have a definitive guage with which we can guage the impressiveness of was destroyed and that is the presence of the midnless one homeworld which we know is NOT made of spongecake. That is a fact that cannot be ignored and it is your appeals to ambiguity when we have a clear point of reference that cause your argument to lose coherency,
Additionally, you previously speculated some form of deterministic relationship between the mindless ones durability and the dark dimension and then implying that the dark dimension made there durability weak. Such a claim is baseless and completely contradictory to the comic. The thing is Horrifics, that we ARE TOLD that the combined force of the mindless ones as they portrayed within the very same comic were powerful enough to kill Umar. To then ignore this unequivocal indication by the author in favor of fantastical speculation is not logically tenable at all. Posting scans without dealing with these core inconsistencies will not aid your argument
Originally posted by Naija boyWell, you are taking my posts out of context. The statement about the homeworld and spongecake was not to be taken literally and the nature of that planet would be the last detail I would attack. And, you know this, so I am not going to write several paragraphs defending it.
The Dark dimension does have multiple mystic realms with many different properties I did not claim it didnt. That is not what is being disputed here. The issue is that we have a definitive guage with which we can guage the impressiveness of was destroyed and that is the presence of the midnless one homeworld which we know is NOT made of spongecake. That is a fact that cannot be ignored and it is your appeals to ambiguity when we have a clear point of reference that cause your argument to lose coherency,Additionally, you previously speculated some form of deterministic relationship between the mindless ones durability and the dark dimension and then implying that the dark dimension made there durability weak. Such a claim is baseless and completely contradictory to the comic. The thing is Horrifics, that we ARE TOLD that the combined force of the mindless ones as they portrayed within the very same comic were powerful enough to kill Umar. To then ignore this unequivocal indication by the author in favor of fantastical speculation is not logically tenable at all. Posting scans without dealing with these core inconsistencies will not aid your argument
Onto the implication that the Dark Dimension made the Mindless Ones weak. Although I wouldn't exactly word it that way, if we go by all on-panel feats, throughout multiple titles, there is an excellent argument to be made that, for whatever reason, the strength and durability of the mindless ones varies to the extreme. Obviously, knowing the historical nature of the Mindless Ones along with your own views of their true, base power levels, there is evidence of severe fluctuation in performance. I simply believe that this fluctuation adds to the non-uniformity description of the Dark Dimension and do not chose to completely disregard it.
But, my argument also focuses on the attributes and abilities portrayed by the Hulk and not just the nondescript nature of the environments in the Dark Dimension.
I am still going to look, scan and post. And, yes, of course they will aid my argument.
In the end I will show that you, trying to force acceptance that the events that happened in HoTM should completely ignore years of comic activity in the Dark Dimension, as well as a continuous description of multiple dimensions, with varied natures, is a MUCH bigger jump than simply accepting that what exists in and what happens in the Dark Dimension should not be treated the same as events in the main 616.
It was NEVER meant to be portrayed as a mainstream universe with natural laws and properties comparable to 616.
Originally posted by Horrificus
Well, you are taking my posts out of context. The statement about the homeworld and spongecake was not to be taken literally and the nature of that planet would be the last detail I would attack. And, you know this, so I am not going to write several paragraphs defending it.Onto the implication that the Dark Dimension made the Mindless Ones weak. Although I wouldn't exactly word it that way, if we go by all on-panel feats, throughout multiple titles, there is an excellent argument to be made that, for whatever reason, the strength and durability of the mindless ones varies to the extreme. Obviously, knowing the historical nature of the Mindless Ones along with your own views of their true, base power levels, there is evidence of severe fluctuation in performance. I simply believe that this fluctuation adds to the non-uniformity description of the Dark Dimension and do not chose to completely disregard it.
But, my argument also focuses on the attributes and abilities portrayed by the Hulk and not just the nondescript nature of the environments in the Dark Dimension.
I am still going to look, scan and post. And, yes, of course they will aid my argument.
In the end I will show that you, trying to force acceptance that the events that happened in HoTM should completely ignore years of comic activity in the Dark Dimension, as well as a continuous description of multiple dimensions, with varied natures, is a MUCH bigger jump than simply accepting that what exists in and what happens in the Dark Dimension should not be treated the same as events in the main 616.
It was NEVER meant to be portrayed as a mainstream universe with natural laws and properties comparable to 616.
Im not taking anything out of context. The issue is NOT merely about your use of the term spongecake or its literal implication. I merely used that term as a substitute for your appeals to ambiguity and ignorance. As I mentioned in my last post, the issue is about the reality of the fact that we have an accurate reference point which is relatively unambiguous and through which we can guage the effectiveness of Hulks attack i.e the mindless ones dimension/homeworld. Consequently, no appeals to ambiguity can hold any weight.
The truth is that the strength and durability of the mindless ones does vary. However attempting to somehow tie that to the dark dimension with literally no on panel backing is grasping at straws. The mindless ones fluctuating power level has happened both INSIDE and OUTSIDE the dark dimension so to posit some type of causal link between them is not logically coherent. Moreover, Im not sure why you keep ignoring this but it was stated/mentioned/indicated/pointed out/affirmed/etc the levels that the mindless ones in that comic were operating at and thus there is no need to appeal to any outside source for an assesment of their formidability. Your argument regarding their powerlevel having been somehow affected by the dark dimension is completely compromised by the fact that we are explicitly told the level they are operating at which leaves NO room for your speculations. I would really like to see you stop ignoring this fundamental issue because you have literally gone on pretending like this indication of their powerlevel did not exist.
Furthermore, the attributes and abilities portrayed by the Hulk were all done under his own power and if you are seriously going to attempt to argue in the face of on panel evidence and authorial intent, that the Dark dimension affected Hulks abilities in some way shape or form, then you would seriously be straining your credibility to the maximum with such silliness. For the sake of the intellectual integrity of this discussion, I will assume otherwise until given reason not to.
The dark dimension does differ from the earth in many ways I have been a long time Dr strange reader and know this so that is not being disputed. The question is whether given Paks own portrayal of the dark dimension and the totality of Hulks activities within it, the entire HOTM feat can be disregarded based on your appeals to ignorance, contravention of clearly indicated on panel fact, and groundless postulations. The answer categorically is: Hell no.
In a nutshell what Naija is saying
1. Mindless ones fluctuate in and out of Dark dimension, because of writer's inconsistency. This happens to all characters in comics actually.
Since the mindless ones DO fluctuate then we require proof of their level at the time of the Hulk feat. But Proof is given of their level before the Hulk feat as it is mentioned that they can kill Umar. So it is clear what level of Mindless Ones we are dealing with at the time of the Hulk feat. This should kill any speculation that the Mindless One's were operating at low levels prior to the feat and hence making all other arguments irrelevant.
2. Also it is mentioned that the Dark Dimension is denser than Earth. Thus it's not a planet with less durability than Earth, but one with more durability.