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Originally posted by mnat801
Dooku is able to defeat Obi Wan, who defeated Pre Suit Vader.
Obi Wan had something that Dooku didn't have, unbreakable defense.
Although that didn't allow him a victory until he happened to gain a superior position where his defensive style could be used offensively. Obi-Wan was merely defending Anakin's attack, and he didn't mean to amputate all those limbs or he would have just killed Anakin. See the Ep III novelization for proof.
Without the high ground Obi-Wan lacked the skill and power to even touch Anakin, who was a far better duelist.
Dooku's skill allowed him to toy with Obi-Wan, Anakin tore through Dooku's style with rage-fueled focus and precision. Dooku was better than Obi-Wan, and could actually break his defense. But Anakin couldn't because his style was actually too aggressive and ferocious to break it, Dooku's style was more concealed in it's assault and his Dun Moch strategy caused Obi Wan to lose his defensive tactics.
As we see in the Clone Wars saga, when Obi Wan is provoked and angered, he loses that defensive perfection that makes him so deadly, as Darth Maul was able to get the best of him with Dun Moch. Provocation is Obi Wan's weakness, he needs to stay cool.
Anakin was stronger in the Force than Dooku, who was stronger in the Force than Obi Wan. But every titan has their weakness, Obi-Wan's weakness was Don Much, Anakin's weakness was Obi-Wan's defensive Soresu Style which eventually wore Anakin out physically.
However, as Darth Vader, his loss of motility, equilibrium, neurokinetics and calisthenics utterly destroyed his maelstrom of destruction, and he had to change his style because the aggression amplified his weakness as an awkward cyborg.
Originally posted by DolosHmm, some of what you said isn't totally right.
Obi Wan had something that Dooku didn't have, unbreakable defense.Although that didn't allow him a victory until he happened to gain a superior position where his defensive style could be used offensively. Obi-Wan was merely defending Anakin's attack, and he didn't mean to amputate all those limbs or he would have just killed Anakin. See the Ep III novelization for proof.
Without the high ground Obi-Wan lacked the skill and power to even touch Anakin, who was a far better duelist.
Dooku's skill allowed him to toy with Obi-Wan, Anakin tore through Dooku's style with rage-fueled focus and precision. Dooku was better than Obi-Wan, and could actually break his defense. But Anakin couldn't because his style was actually too aggressive and ferocious to break it, Dooku's style was more concealed in it's assault and his Dun Moch strategy caused Obi Wan to lose his defensive tactics.
As we see in the Clone Wars saga, when Obi Wan is provoked and angered, he loses that defensive perfection that makes him so deadly, as Darth Maul was able to get the best of him with Dun Moch. Provocation is Obi Wan's weakness, he needs to stay cool.
Anakin was stronger in the Force than Dooku, who was stronger in the Force than Obi Wan. But every titan has their weakness, Obi-Wan's weakness was Don Much, Anakin's weakness was Obi-Wan's defensive Soresu Style which eventually wore Anakin out physically.
However, as Darth Vader, his loss of motility, equilibrium, neurokinetics and calisthenics utterly destroyed his maelstrom of destruction, and he had to change his style because the aggression amplified his weakness as an awkward cyborg.
Obi Wan didn't have unbreakable defense, as Dooku broke his defense and almost killed him in AOTC.
Saying Anakin is a far better duelist than Obi Wan is a contradiction. Because then Obi Wan wouldn't have been much of a problem for him in that duel.
Another contradiction is when you say provocation is Obi Wan's weakness. Maul did get the better of him in TCW series season 4, but in TPM when Maul provoked him after killing his master, Obi Wan performed better against Maul which forced Maul to force push Obi Wan.
Obi Wan wasn't defending Anakin's attacks the whole time, there were some par to par moments.
And I don't know about Anakin being stronger in the force than Dooku, but only the potential.
Originally posted by mnat801
Another contradiction is when you say provocation is Obi Wan's weakness. Maul did get the better of him in TCW series season 4, but in TPM when Maul provoked him after killing his master, Obi Wan performed better against Maul which forced Maul to force push Obi Wan.
It should be noted that Obi-Wan was using Ataru during TPM, and afterwards he switched to Soresu. Utilising Soresu, if Obi-Wan were to fall victim to provocation, it would have far worse consequences than if he were using Ataru, a more aggressive form.
In any case, when Maul did force push Obi-Wan, Maul had already staggered him due to overpowering him in the saber lock, leaving Obi-Wan open to being force pushed or similar. I'm not denying Obi-Wan fought better after Qui-Gon was killed, but Maul still managed to get the better of him via the saber lock and simply using the environment to his advantage.
Backward ass logic, not facts.
> does not mean anything. What you're trying to say is Dooku beat Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan got lucky against Anakin.
Anakin's rage allowed him to overpower Dooku, and his master, Obi-Wan was just about to die before he got the high-ground and Anakin foolishly tried to rush Obi-Wan, Dooku wouldn't have gotten past Kenobi's Soresu defense had he been in Anakin's shoes with Kenobi's high-ground. That had nothing to do with his rage, that was his arrogance. He was stronger than Dooku, who was stronger than Obi-wan.
He had become stronger than Dooku in the Force, and had long since surpassed his master, before his powers even doubled and went above Dooku's.
Originally posted by KylarWhiteFair enough point, but that didn't mean that Obi Wan never used Ataru after learning Soresu. He still implemented at times, however Soresu stayed as his dominant style.
It should be noted that Obi-Wan was using Ataru during TPM, and afterwards he switched to Soresu. Utilising Soresu, if Obi-Wan were to fall victim to provocation, it would have far worse consequences than if he were using Ataru, a more aggressive form.In any case, when Maul did force push Obi-Wan, Maul had already staggered him due to overpowering him in the saber lock, leaving Obi-Wan open to being force pushed or similar. I'm not denying Obi-Wan fought better after Qui-Gon was killed, but Maul still managed to get the better of him via the saber lock and simply using the environment to his advantage.
Yup, your right about Maul and the saber lock.
Originally posted by DolosIt is facts. Obi Wan didn't defeat Vader because of luck, it was because of his patience and Vader's stupidity. It was still a pretty even fight, I don't know whether it got to the point where Obi Wan was almost going to die.
Backward ass logic, not facts.> does not mean anything. What you're trying to say is Dooku beat Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan got lucky against Anakin.
Anakin's rage allowed him to overpower Dooku, and his master, Obi-Wan was just about to die before he got the high-ground and Anakin foolishly tried to rush Obi-Wan, Dooku wouldn't have gotten past Kenobi's Soresu defense had he been in Anakin's shoes with Kenobi's high-ground. That had nothing to do with his rage, that was his arrogance. He was stronger than Dooku, who was stronger than Obi-wan.
He had become stronger than Dooku in the Force, and had long since surpassed his master, before his powers even doubled and went above Dooku's.
I don't think Vader was stronger in the force than any of them, remember he and Obi Wan stalemated a force push in that duel on Mustafar.
Originally posted by Dolos
Backward ass logic, not facts.> does not mean anything. What you're trying to say is Dooku beat Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan got lucky against Anakin.
Anakin's rage allowed him to overpower Dooku, and his master, Obi-Wan was just about to die before he got the high-ground and Anakin foolishly tried to rush Obi-Wan, Dooku wouldn't have gotten past Kenobi's Soresu defense had he been in Anakin's shoes with Kenobi's high-ground. That had nothing to do with his rage, that was his arrogance. He was stronger than Dooku, who was stronger than Obi-wan.
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Originally posted by Dolos
He had become stronger than Dooku in the Force, and had long since surpassed his master, before his powers even doubled and went above Dooku's.
Originally posted by mnat801
I don't think Vader was stronger in the force than any of them, remember he and Obi Wan stalemated a force push in that duel on Mustafar.
Being stronger in the force doesn't necessarily translate into superior telekinesis. ROTS Anakin WAS Stronger in the Force than both Dooku and Obi-Wan.
Also Skywalker has proven many times in the Clone Wars that he can tank Dooku's force attacks far far better than Kenobi can. In fact Kenobi can't.
Originally posted by mnat801
It is facts. Obi Wan didn't defeat Vader because of luck, it was because of his patience and Vader's stupidity.
He won due to Vader's arrogance. Jedi Anakin did not make such stupid moves. In fact he has been consistently shown to be much smarter tactically than Kenobi.
Originally posted by mnat801
It was still a pretty even fight, I don't know whether it got to the point where Obi Wan was almost going to die.
Kenobi was getting choked to death at one point. And Anakin landed more blows and was "Forcing" Kenobi back the whole fight. Plus Kenobi was tiring, whilst Skywalker has pretty unlimited stamina. I don't see how that's pretty even.
Dooku dies even quicker unless he manages to disable Anakin with some surprise Force attack like in CW.
Plus Kenobi was tiring, whilst Skywalker has pretty unlimited stamina. I don't see how that's pretty even.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Being stronger in the force doesn't necessarily translate into superior telekinesis. ROTS Anakin WAS Stronger in the Force than both Dooku and Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Skywalker has proven many times in the Clone Wars that he can tank Dooku's force attacks far far better than Kenobi can. In fact Kenobi can't.
However, I do recall two CW fights between Dooku and Anakin; in one such fight, Dooku send Anakin packing away from him with his telekinetic abilities; in another, Dooku knocked out Anakin unconscious with his Force Lightning.
But Dooku was already showing signs of aging since he was unable to keep up with Anakin in martial combat situations. On the contrary, Anakin was improving with passage of time.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He won due to Vader's arrogance. Jedi Anakin did not make such stupid moves. In fact he has been consistently shown to be much smarter tactically than Kenobi.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi was getting choked to death at one point. And Anakin landed more blows and was "Forcing" Kenobi back the whole fight. Plus Kenobi was tiring, whilst Skywalker has pretty unlimited stamina. I don't see how that's pretty even.
On top of this, pre-suit Vader, couldn't overwhelm Obi-Wan with the Force either because his command of it wasn't good enough during this time to grant him edge against Obi-Wan's. This proved to be a major drawback.