Darth Maul (TPM) vs Savage Opress (TCW)

Location: Mustafar (from Star Wars: Episode III)
Rules: Saber, Force, and all-out

Detailed information:

Darth Maul (TPM):
Age: 24
Species: Dathomirian Zabrak
Gender: Male
Masters: Palpatine
Apprentices: None
Profession: Assassin
Cybernetics: None
Weapons: Double-bladed Lightsaber
Saber forms: Juyo, Dun Möch, Jar'Kai, Teräs Käsi
Force powers: Grip, Choke, Lightning, Resistance, Mechu-deru

Savage Opress (TCW):
Age: 35
Species: Dathomirian Zabrak
Gender: Male
Masters: Asajj Ventress, Dooku
Apprentices: None
Profession: Juggernaut
Cybernetics: Prosthetic left arm
Weapons: Enchanted Dathomir Blade, Double-bladed Lightsaber
Saber forms: Soresu, Djem So, Juyo, Teräs Käsi
Force powers: Blast, Choke, Pulse, Saber Throw, Dathomirian Rage

Sabers: Maul, maybe
Force: Savage
All out: Savage

Sabers - Maul
Force - Opress
All Out- Maul.

I doubt CW Maul in the episode "Revival" is miles ahead of his PM self in power. He's probably actually still a bit behind his former self in skill.

CW Maul had no problems with Savage. I doubt TPM maul could do the same

I'd say Maul in all situations. TCW Maul showed he's better than Savage, and this is after many years in exile. And Savage is reletively new to the force.

I thought Maul's powers in TCW were given a boost by Mother Talzin?

Either way CW Maul is much better with the force than his TPM version and his stomp of Savage is more impressive than killing Qui-Gon IMO.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I thought Maul's powers in TCW were given a boost by Mother Talzin?

Yes but he needed a boost because being cleaved in 2 would have greatly reduced his connection to the Force.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Either way CW Maul is much better with the force than his TPM version

We don't know that.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and his stomp of Savage is more impressive than killing Qui-Gon IMO.

He stomped Savage through pure skill. His skill was at it's peak during TPM.

And he didn't just kill Qui-Gon. He matched both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together. In fact he was actually superior to both of them together.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I thought Maul's powers in TCW were given a boost by Mother Talzin?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
CW Maul had no problems with Savage. I doubt TPM maul could do the same

You just posted that you believe Savage would win only to later comment that Maul "stomped" Savage, indicating that he's ahead of Savage from a combat PoV.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
...being cleaved in 2 would have greatly reduced his connection to the Force.

Really? Based on what?

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Really? Based on what?

Oh you know how Lucas has always said Vader lost a lot of power in the force due to his broken body. So it's kind of a given being cleaved in 2 wouldn't have done Maul much good.

Also remember the first episode when Maul just got resurrected he was having trouble lifting his own Lightsaber with TK. Of course that may be due to him being out of action for so long.

Either way Maul was clearly out of shape when he came back, and was slowly improving back to his old self and possibly beyond that level- eventually. But it's hard to say at which point he was on par with his PM self and at which point he surpassed that level.

I was under the impression that GL was speaking merely of Vader's inability to utilize FL based on the presence of mechanical limbs as opposed to biological flesh and blood. The connection itself isn't necessarily/explicitly lessened as far as I'm aware.

As far as Maul goes, I just figured it was due to him being out of action for a lengthy period of time, as you stated, as well as a complete lack of focus. He was a mental headcase when he was found by Savage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER Yes but he needed a boost because being cleaved in 2 would have greatly reduced his connection to the Force.

oh

[i]Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We don't know that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]And he didn't just kill Qui-Gon. He matched both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together. In fact he was actually superior to both of them together.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
You just posted that you believe Savage would win only to later comment that Maul "stomped" Savage, indicating that he's ahead of Savage from a combat PoV.

CW Maul stomped Savage. This thread is Tpm Maul vs Savage

I thought only Vader's potential was diminished. Afterall, he still seemed to grow more powerful. He was just unable to reach his full potential and exceed Palpatine. In RoDV, Palpatine muses that this was more of a psychological issue.

But yeah, I'm with JT, I think it was Lucas' excuse as to why Vader never uses force lightning, and also his reason why Vader never surpasses his master.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
CW Maul stomped Savage. This thread is Tpm Maul vs Savage

Damn! Missing a lot of details today.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I was under the impression that GL was speaking merely of Vader's inability to utilize FL based on the presence of mechanical limbs as opposed to biological flesh and blood. The connection itself isn't necessarily/explicitly lessened as far as I'm aware.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I thought only Vader's potential was diminished. Afterall, he still seemed to grow more powerful. He was just unable to reach his full potential and exceed Palpatine. In RoDV, Palpatine muses that this was more of a psychological issue.

But yeah, I'm with JT, I think it was Lucas' excuse as to why Vader never uses force lightning, and also his reason why Vader never surpasses his master.

ESB Audio commentary, Lucas talking about Vader:

"He's lost a lot of power in the Force and a lot of feasibility to surpass the Emporer.."

So he's clearly talking about Connection to the Force AND Potential, both.

And the context of the quote had absolutely nothing to do with FL. It was about why Vader isn't as powerful as the Emporer.

It's also backed by the ROTS novel which has Vader at the end feeling how much his connection to the Force has diminished.

But of course with 10-20 years of Dark Side Mastery he could still be a Force beast since his potential was probably still in the Elite tier.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom

Maul pulling down the aircraft thing in revival comes to mind.

He may have been more powerful in the force by Revival than he was in TPM, but is there any proof he couldn't have done that at the time of TPM?

After all Opress did the same thing after just starting his training, and Dooku claimed he was training Opress to become as Powerful as Maul used to be.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Proof that he's in his peak as of TPM?

In terms of skill? I can provide quotes. It's kind of a no brainer that his skill wouldn't be at it's peak when he's been out of action and in a demented state for 10+ years.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and even the CW narrator mentions Maul as more powerful than ever.

I don't remember that. Which episode did the CW Narrator say that in?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Credit where it's due. But those two doesn't haven't done anything that makes them superior to Savage, considering Savage's TK abilities.

True, but Maul only used Force TK Offensively Once in his PM fight. And that chucked the Jedi he was fighting down a shaft.

Also when CW Maul owned Opress there was no TK involved either.

I say TPM Maul definitely takes Sabers. But it will probably take him a lot longer to win than CW Maul who used his Cyborg Leg to Physically dominate Opress.

But Yes Opress will most likely own in the Force fight. Though I doubt such a heavily trained Sith Lord like Maul would be a slouch in that department.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ESB Audio commentary, Lucas talking about Vader:

"He's lost a lot of power in the Force and a lot of feasibility to surpass the Emporer.."

So he's clearly talking about Connection to the Force AND Potential, both.

And the context of the quote had absolutely nothing to do with FL. It was about why Vader isn't as powerful as the Emporer.

It's also backed by the ROTS novel which has Vader at the end feeling how much his connection to the Force has diminished.

But of course with 10-20 years of Dark Side Mastery he could still be a Force beast since his potential was probably still in the Elite tier.

If I have the potential to use FL but then later lose that potential, then I have indeed "lost a lot of power in the Force" as well as potential.

And let's not forget the psychological wall that Vader hid himself behind.

Did Luke lose some of his Force connection after he had to undergo cybernetic replacement? No mention of that anywhere.

Any other evidence that cybernetic replacement leads to loss of Force connection? If so, please enlighten us.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
If I have the potential to use FL but then later lose that potential, then I have indeed "lost a lot of power in the Force" as well as potential.

Really? Just because you can't use FL? I wouldn't think so. Jedi don't use FL doesn't mean they're less powerful. They can always block that with a Lightsaber anyway.

Luke wouldn't be able to use FL with one hand? So what? Like you said no mention is ever made of him having lost considerable power or potential.

And Lucas's quote really had nothing to do with FL anyway.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And let's not forget the psychological wall that Vader hid himself behind.

Ok. But let's not also forget the end of the ROTS Novel where it's clear Skywalker's connection to the force has been severly diminshed.

"Like a Composer gone dumb, or a painter gone blind.."

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Did Luke lose some of his Force connection after he had to undergo cybernetic replacement? No mention of that anywhere.

Probably because it's just a hand and wouldn't make a noticeable difference to his potential.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Any other evidence that cybernetic replacement leads to loss of Force connection? If so, please enlighten us.

Not that I can think of. But I would have thought that statement of Lucas's and the description of newly formed Machine Vader in the ROTS novel would have been more than enough evidence.