Darth Maul (TPM) vs Savage Opress (TCW)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He may have been more powerful in the force by Revival than he was in TPM, but is there any proof he couldn't have done that at the time of TPM?

That's kinda impossible to prove. But from what we know, then he couldn't at the time of TPM.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
After all Opress did the same thing after just starting his training, and Dooku claimed he was training Opress to become as Powerful as Maul used to be.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In terms of skill? I can provide quotes. It's kind of a no brainer that his skill wouldn't be at it's peak when he's been out of action and in a demented state for 10+ years.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't remember that. Which episode did the CW Narrator say that in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y1yrKxKxec

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True, but Maul only used Force TK Offensively Once in his PM fight. And that chucked the Jedi he was fighting down a shaft.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also when CW Maul owned Opress there was no TK involved either.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I say TPM Maul definitely takes Sabers. But it will probably take him a lot longer to win than CW Maul who used his Cyborg Leg to Physically dominate Opress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Yes Opress will most likely own in the Force fight. Though I doubt such a heavily trained Sith Lord like Maul would be a slouch in that department.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
That's kinda impossible to prove. But from what we know, then he couldn't at the time of TPM.

Well we don't know much about his Force Powers at that time. Though there were no great force feats in his few appearances at that time, there were also no great limitations imposed on his abilities either.

What do I mean by that? Well for example when Dooku easily ragdolled Obi-Wan that was a huge limitation put on Obi-Wan's force powers straight away showing he can't compete with the top dogs.

No such limitation was put on TPM Maul. His CW showings are the first time we're really seeing his Force TK in action.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
True, but Dooku also said that Ventress was ''no match for him without her pet''. So Ventress alone is no match, but with Savage they're a match. He's kinda a big difference.

That was right after Opress went Uber and started Force choking Dooku and Ventress together! And he did run away from that situation so clearly felt threatened.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Just found a quote in the TPM novel. But that novel was written far earlier than TCW show started and Terry Brooks would've got no idea that Maul returned and so it is hard to determine when he's in his peak.

Basically there's quotes in TPM novel, Shadow Hunter, Saboteur and other sources where Maul is said to have unparalleled combat skills.

There was no room for improvement in that department. In fact common sense tells us if anything being out of action for 10+ years and getting new limbs to adjust to would all of course only decrease his combat effectiveness.

Of course as long as he's around he will keep improving and has the potential to become more Powerful in the Force than he ever was.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
In ''Revenge''. Look here, listen from 0:30 to 0:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y1yrKxKxec

Not got audio right now, but beginning of "Revenge"??

Lol he hadn't even been restored at that point and was completely demented. Even after getting restored he had trouble picking up his own lightsaber!

I think what you mean is his lust for revenge was more powerful than ever, or something like that.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and how close were Kenobi to that shaft? Very close. Not impressive at all.

Watch carefully he floored and disarmed him of his weapon first, after which point he still couldn't stop himself and fell down the shaft.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
So? Maul is on Savage's level with the force at this point. Savage also says ''you've grown so powerful''.

Yeah since Savage has known him. I.e. since Revenge when he could barely TK his Lightsaber.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Yes. But even then, what are TPM Maul's best lightsaber feats, because Savage is also solid in this department.

Speculation. I doubt a force beast like Savage can't just TK TPM Maul around (maybe i'm exaggerating though lol)

It's all speculation. All we know for sure is Dooku thought TPM Maul was superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well we don't know much about his Force Powers at that time. Though there were no great force feats in his few appearances at that time, there were also no great limitations imposed on his abilities either.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was right after Opress went Uber and started Force choking Dooku and Ventress together! And he did run away from that situation so clearly felt threatened.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There was no room for improvement in that department.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In fact common sense tells us if anything being out of action for 10+ years and getting new limbs to adjust to would all of course only decrease his combat effectiveness.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not got audio right now, but beginning of "Revenge"??

Lol he hadn't even been restored at that point and was completely demented. Even after getting restored he had trouble picking up his own lightsaber!

I think what you mean is his lust for revenge was more powerful than ever, or something like that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Watch carefully he floored and disarmed him of his weapon first, after which point he still couldn't stop himself and fell down the shaft.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah since Savage has known him. I.e. since Revenge when he could barely TK his Lightsaber.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's all speculation. All we know for sure is Dooku thought TPM Maul was superior.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
We might as well say any character is fantastic with the force even though no impressive feats have been shown.

Ah but I'm not saying he was fantastic for no reason. I'm basing it on what Current Maul has shown and on Dooku's words. Plus the fact that no huge limitations were put on him back in TPM time period.

He wasn't completely featless. He force blasted a metal door open, hid himself from a crowd in plain sight, and was fast enough to drill through a wall after a rocket was fired at him. Defeated a Jedi whose skills with a Saber were considered peerless.(All from Shaodw Hunter). Able to so fast he couldn't be seen on a video(Saboteur). Laid waste to and army of Black Sun's greatest warriors(Darth Maul:Black Sun).

Plus there's the countless statements from all these sources about how amazing his combat prowess was.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
If Savage is able to choke Ventress and Dooku at the same time, one will wonder what he'd do to Maul.

By that argument Savage should also be able to take Current Maul or Obi-Wan for that matter. But clearly couldn't. That Uber feat of Savage's was a one off. It showed his potential more than anything else.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
No room for improvement? There always is. He was floored by an enraged TPM Kenobi at one point.

He could grow more powerful of course, but his combat skills were perfected. Just because an enraged Obi-Wan (who'd been out of the fight for a while) got one hit on him doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
He goes from barely being able to grab a lightsaber with the force to pulling down an aircraft while running with one leg. He is improving very fast

Of course he is.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and so being out of action doesn't really matter.

The fact that he improved so fast shows me he's quickly getting back into the hang of things. To me that shows how good he must have been in the first place.

For example, he quickly disarmed Opress with what seemed an awful lot like some elegant Makashi and Martial Art moves. Do you really think that's something he just learned recently??

Nah that must have been how skilled he was in the first place.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
He says Maul is returning more powerful than ever, fueled by his hatred and whatnot.

I'll have to re-watch it. But he obviously wasn't more powerful than ever at that point. I mean Ashoka would have taken him in that state Lol.

I'm certain it was referring to his hate and lust for revenge.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
CW Maul's & Savage's force feats>>>this.
A literal stomp of Savage puts CW Maul above TPM Maul as far as feats go.

Of course. But where did current Maul suddenly gain that kind of mastery?? He was trained back in the day. Not recently.

I have no doubt he will grow more powerful than his PM self. I'm just not convinced he's already surpassed that level by a mile.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom

How much does Dooku know about Maul though?

Well he seemed to know all about his destroying of Black Sun in the ROTS novel. He also knows he was considerably more formidable than Qui-Gon. And Dooku would know better than most how good Qui-Gon was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah but I'm not saying he was fantastic for no reason. I'm basing it on what Current Maul has shown and on Dooku's words. Plus the fact that no huge limitations were put on him back in TPM time period.

He wasn't completely featless. He force blasted a metal door open, hid himself from a crowd in plain sight, and was fast enough to drill through a wall after a rocket was fired at him. Defeated a Jedi whose skills with a Saber were considered peerless.(All from Shaodw Hunter). Able to so fast he couldn't be seen on a video(Saboteur). Laid waste to and army of Black Sun's greatest warriors(Darth Maul:Black Sun).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Plus there's the countless statements from all these sources about how amazing his combat prowess was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
By that argument Savage should also be able to take Current Maul or Obi-Wan for that matter. But clearly couldn't. That Uber feat of Savage's was a one off. It showed his potential more than anything else.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He could grow more powerful of course, but his combat skills were perfected. Just because an enraged Obi-Wan (who'd been out of the fight for a while) got one hit on him doesn't change that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course he is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The fact that he improved so fast shows me he's quickly getting back into the hang of things. To me that shows how good he must have been in the first place.

For example, he quickly disarmed Opress with what seemed an awful lot like some elegant Makashi and Martial Art moves. Do you really think that's something he just learned recently??

Nah that must have been how skilled he was in the first place.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'll have to re-watch it. But he obviously wasn't more powerful than ever at that point. I mean Ashoka would have taken him in that state Lol.

I'm certain it was referring to his hate and lust for revenge.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course. But where did current Maul suddenly gain that kind of mastery?? He was trained back in the day. Not recently.

I have no doubt he will grow more powerful than his PM self. I'm just not convinced he's already surpassed that level by a mile.

Very strang he hasn't shown all these powers then. It seems more logical to me that he was boosted by Mother Talzin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he seemed to know all about his destroying of Black Sun in the ROTS novel. He also knows he was considerably more formidable than Qui-Gon. And Dooku would know better than most how good Qui-Gon was.

Watch the episode when Ventress finds Savage. He is very good with a weapon in that episode. And didn't he get increased powers by Mother Talzin?

Savage took on Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time while holding an unconscious body.
He tossed Ventress around.
He floored Dooku.
He survived a "Junker" attack.
He punched Obi-Wan unconscious.
He deflected Hondo's army's blaster bolts with only one arm.
He broke out of carbonite.
He killed Jedi Master Adi Gallia.

Maul took on Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time, killing Qui-Gon and getting sliced in half by Obi-Wan.
He killed a Jedi Master from behind.
He survived Sidious's training.
He can take on Galen Marek.

As for the "Savage got stomped by Maul", that was in TCW. Maul was a warrior in TCW. In TPM, he's an assassin. He doesn't have any prosthetic legs.

Maul to take on Marek? ...

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
He is good with a saber at this time, but do you honestly believe these force feats are that good? Not on the level of Savage.

Oh no I've said his feats were not on the same level at all as Opress's at all. But to me feats only show part of the picture, not the whole thing.

When no huge limitations were put on his force abilities at that time, and when he's suddenly doing these Uber feats (and doesn't exactly seem shocked that he's suddenly capable of doing these things) and plus add Dooku's words to Opress, and it may well be the case that so far this isn't a huge boost for Maul. We just didn't see what he was capable of in the past.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Tiin, Fisto and Kolar were all celebrated swordsmen in the RotS Novel. But look how they did against the elite. Same applies for TPM Maul.

Their statements are not very specific and don't match Maul's at all.

Also an enraged Maul gave Sidious a run for his money once in a Saber contest. So he's clearly not on a level where he'd be blitzed by Sidious in a couple of seconds like those 3.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I agree it was a one off. However he wouldn't be able to take on CW Maul because this Maul is on the same level with the force. But maybe he'd take on Obi-Wan, we've seen how useless he is against Dooku. Granted, Dooku is better than Savage with the force but Savage is still good..

Actually I do think in a one on one and in a more open space Opress still could have a chance against Obi-Wan in a rematch if he put his force powers to use.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
It shows that Maul isn't invisible with a saber and would fall to the elite in this category. And I certainly do not put an enraged TPM Kenobi very high in comparison to the elite.

Well no one's invincible. Even Sidious went down to a kick from Mace. But yeah I don't put Maul in the elite tier. Even current Maul is still below Dooku level Imo.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Very strang he hasn't shown all these powers then. It seems more logical to me that he was boosted by Mother Talzin.

Oh she has boosted him. But he also would have lost considerable power when Obi-Wan chopped him up. So he needed a boost really.

But still I'm sure his Force TK is above the level it was at previously.

All I'm saying is he doesn't seem too shocked at how powerful he is in the Force now, and the things he can do. Plus there were Dooku's words about how his target for Opress was to become as Powerful as Maul once was.

So I doubt he's already surpassed his old self by a mile.

Remember he didn't have that many appearances before the CW, and he always preferred to dominate his opponents physically and through sheer skill.

Right now being out of action for a while, so he may have needed to rely more on his Force TK Powers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh no I've said his feats were not on the same level at all as Opress's at all. But to me feats only show part of the picture, not the whole thing.

When no huge limitations were put on his force abilities at that time, and when he's suddenly doing these Uber feats (and doesn't exactly seem shocked that he's suddenly capable of doing these things) and plus add Dooku's words to Opress, and it may well be the case that so far this isn't a huge boost for Maul. We just didn't see what he was capable of in the past.

and the words from Dooku are kinda irrelevant. Of course Savage is not as powerful as TPM Maul at the beginning, but he has accomplished a lot since then.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Their statements are not very specific and don't match Maul's at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also an enraged Maul gave Sidious a run for his money once in a Saber contest. So he's clearly not on a level where he'd be blitzed by Sidious in a couple of seconds like those 3.

and I'd put Fisto quite close to Maul in sabers considering he handled Grievous quite well.r

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually I do think in a one on one and in a more open space Opress still could have a chance against Obi-Wan in a rematch if he put his force powers to use.

and he wouldn't have an even better chance against TPM Maul? Especially since a more powerful CW Maul failed to defeat Kenobi with the help of Savage in a pure saber duel. This doesn't quite make sense unless you put TPM Maul above CW/-RotS Kenobi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well no one's invincible. Even Sidious went down to a kick from Mace. But yeah I don't put Maul in the elite tier. Even current Maul is still below Dooku level Imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh she has boosted him. But he also would have lost considerable power when Obi-Wan chopped him up. So he needed a boost really.

But still I'm sure his Force TK is above the level it was at previously.

All I'm saying is he doesn't seem too shocked at how powerful he is in the Force now, and the things he can do. Plus there were Dooku's words about how his target for Opress was to become as Powerful as Maul once was.

So I doubt he's already surpassed his old self by a mile.

Remember he didn't have that many appearances before the CW, and he always preferred to dominate his opponents physically and through sheer skill.

Right now being out of action for a while, so he may have needed to rely more on his Force TK Powers.

If you're sure his force powers are above the level of TPM, why are you saying he could've done the same in TPM but he just hasn't shown it?

and Dooku did manage to make Savage more powerful. Obviously this is a trained Savage, not a novice.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I disagree with this. Considering there's been quite a few books with Maul in them it seems highly unlikely he's never shown it.

There's really not been that many. The main one is Shadow Hunter. Then there's a few short stories. He's definitely not had the kind of coverage that Dooku and Obi-Wan have had.

But anyway he did smash through locked door which is better than the usual type feats we get from Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and the words from Dooku are kinda irrelevant. Of course Savage is not as powerful as TPM Maul at the beginning, but he has accomplished a lot since then.

No his Goal was to train Savage to be as powerful as Maul was. When Opress was lifting pillars and pushing Jedi Craft he only completed the first stages of Dooku's training according to Dooku.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I'd like to hear the statements about Maul then.

He completely mastered Juyo (which by definition means he must have mastered many other forms), the Single Lightsbaer, Dual Lightsabers and the Saber Staff. He mastered Teras Kasi and many forms of unarmed combat.

Sidious himself believed Maul's skills as a warrior to be unparalleled. And he proved to be a superior warrior to Anoon Bonadara whose skills with a Lightsaber were said to be second to none.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
On Wookie (yes, I know) it says Maul quickly lost the saber fight with Sidious. And Sidious was merely defending himself anyway.

Nope it's in the dark side source book where it says Sidious barely deflected all Mauls attacks. Maul was however in a one off Rage enhanced state.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and I'd put Fisto quite close to Maul in sabers considering he handled Grievous quite well.r

No way I'll ever agree with that. Fisto was no match for Ventress. Ashoka was pretty much stalemating Grievous in a recent episode of the Clone Wars. I don't buy into all the Fisto wankage just because he was beating Grievous.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and he wouldn't have an even better chance against TPM Maul? Especially since a more powerful CW Maul failed to defeat Kenobi with the help of Savage in a pure saber duel. This doesn't quite make sense unless you put TPM Maul above CW/-RotS Kenobi.

Yeah but that's what I'm saying. The most recent Maul we've seen in CW was probably more powerful with his Force TK, but he's not yet quite as skilled in Sabers as he used to be. He was out of action for over 10 years! Has new limbs to adapt to as well. But he's clearly getting back there quickly.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Agreed. But what I think makes Savage take TPM Maul is that the difference in force powers (in Savage's favor) is bigger than the difference in saber skills (in Maul's favor).

Yeah that's certainly possible. But remember Maul was always a physical beast. Add that to his force training he can probably take some Force hits from a Powerful Novice.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
If you're sure his force powers are above the level of TPM, why are you saying he could've done the same in TPM but he just hasn't shown it?

I just don't think he's already "miles" more powerful than his former self. I think what they're showing is that yes Maul's been given a boost BUT he was always pretty awesome due to his intense training from Sidious.

Dave Filoni said in an interview that Opress is just an untrained Beast whose just all rage and power, but not very skilled. Whilst Maul is a really big threat because he was trained really well by Sidious in "all the ways of the Sith."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's really not been that many. The main one is Shadow Hunter. Then there's a few short stories. He's definitely not had the kind of coverage that Dooku and Obi-Wan have had.

But anyway he did smash through locked door which is better than the usual type feats we get from Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No his Goal was to train Savage to be as powerful as Maul was. When Opress was lifting pillars and pushing Jedi Craft he only completed the first stages of Dooku's training according to Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He completely mastered Juyo (which by definition means he must have mastered many other forms), the Single Lightsbaer, Dual Lightsabers and the Saber Staff. He mastered Teras Kasi and many forms of unarmed combat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious himself believed Maul's skills as a warrior to be unparalleled. And he proved to be a superior warrior to Anoon Bonadara whose skills with a Lightsaber were said to be second to none.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nope it's in the dark side source book where it says Sidious barely deflected all Mauls attacks. Maul was however in a one off Rage enhanced state.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No way I'll ever agree with that. Fisto was no match for Ventress. Ashoka was pretty much stalemating Grievous in a recent episode of the Clone Wars. I don't buy into all the Fisto wankage just because he was beating Grievous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but that's what I'm saying. The most recent Maul we've seen in CW was probably more powerful with his Force TK, but he's not yet quite as skilled in Sabers as he used to be. He was out of action for over 10 years! Has new limbs to adapt to as well. But he's clearly getting back there quickly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah that's certainly possible. But remember Maul was always a physical beast. Add that to his force training he can probably take some Force hits from a Powerful Novice.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I just don't think he's already "miles" more powerful than his former self. I think what they're showing is that yes Maul's been given a boost BUT he was always pretty awesome due to his intense training from Sidious.

Dave Filoni said in an interview that Opress is just an untrained Beast whose just all rage and power, but not very skilled. Whilst Maul is a really big threat because he was trained really well by Sidious in "all the ways of the Sith."

Can Maul do lightning? Cause then Savage is done 🙄

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Do you have Shadow Hunter? Recommend it? Might pick it up.

Yes I do have it. And I really enjoyed that book.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Proof that this was only the first stages of his training to become as good as Maul? and that he had not already accomplished that?

Well because he said "You've completed the first stages of your training" when he sent him out on his mission. And he said before that his aim was to get Opress to Maul's previous level and then Dooku would be confident enough to challenge Sidious.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Maul won't have the advantage of a saber staff as Savage is already using that. And is unarmed combat skills I cannon see to much use when thinking og Savage's strenght.

It's not about the staff itself, it's about Maul's exceptional mastery over the weapon.

Also Kenobi used martial arts to deal with Opress's strength, as did Current Maul (arm twist), so I don't see why TPM Maul couldn't considering all the praises towards his combat prowess.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Anoon Bondara went down faster than Qui-Gon. And Qui-Gon isn't that good. Below Fisto IMO.

Bondara didn't do down faster than Qui-Gon. He knew he would eventually lose so attempted a suicide attack.

I don't know why there's any reason to believe Qui-Gon is below Fisto. We can't just go by feats. Sometimes we just don't know of a person's level. Qui-Gon's combat prowess may have ranged anywhere from Adi-Gallia'a level to Ventress's level. We just don't know.

I don't like how people just assume anyone without feats is weak.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
If we can use this we can use the example when Savage floors Dooku and Ventress. In this case TPM Maul doesn't stand much of a chance..

That's true. I don't usually go by temorarily rage enahanced feats. But I think it's sufficient proof that both Opress and Maul are above Fisto level.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
The same Grievous that were pwning 5 jedi in the 2003 cartoon.

LOL And what you think Fisto could take on those 5 Jedi?! People need to get over that one Uber showing of Grievous when he was first introduced. He just recently couldn't defeat Ashoka.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Can Maul do lightning? Cause then Savage is done 🙄

Oh yeah Maul did resist Mighella's the Nightsister's FL, to which she responded "What non one can resist FL.. Oh no I know what you must be..!"

So he obviously always had decent Force Defenses.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes I do have it. And I really enjoyed that book.

[QUOTE=14134673]Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]Well because he said "You've completed the first stages of your training" when he sent him out on his mission. And he said before that his aim was to get Opress to Maul's previous level and then Dooku would be confident enough to challenge Sidious.

and did Dooku really think he'd be able to take on Sidious with a Savage on TPM Maul level?

and also, does Dooku know ANYTHING about Maul's force abilities about TPM? Most likely not, because they were not well documented as you've said yourself, only his saber skills.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not about the staff itself, it's about Maul's exceptional mastery over the weapon.

Also Kenobi used martial arts to deal with Opress's strength, as did Current Maul (arm twist), so I don't see why TPM Maul couldn't considering all the praises towards his combat prowess.

Savage is quite good with the saber staff himself so I doubt that will be a key factor anyway.

and when did Kenobi deal with Savage's strenght with martial arts?

and I also doubt TPM Maul could do that arm twist considering his boost by Talzin. and where are the several praises towards his martial art skills?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Bondara didn't do down faster than Qui-Gon. He knew he would eventually lose so attempted a suicide attack.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't know why there's any reason to believe Qui-Gon is below Fisto. We can't just go by feats. Sometimes we just don't know of a person's level. Qui-Gon's combat prowess may have ranged anywhere from Adi-Gallia'a level to Ventress's level. We just don't know.

I don't like how people just assume anyone without feats is weak.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL And what you think Fisto could take on those 5 Jedi?! People need to get over that one Uber showing of Grievous when he was first introduced. He just recently couldn't defeat Ashoka.

You focus on Grievous ''bad performances'' rather than his good ones. Recently he also got the better of CW Kenobi. That fight with the 5 jedi shows the potential of Grievous in a fight.

and his fight with Fisto and Ashoka doesn't take away from Grievous, but more says something about Fisto and Ashoka's skills.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh yeah Maul did resist Mighella's the Nightsister's FL, to which she responded "What non one can resist FL.. Oh no I know what you must be..!"

So he obviously always had decent Force Defenses.

I meant can Maul produce force lightning.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Just because Dooku said he'd make Savage as powerful as Maul doesn't mean much. At this point Savage sucks so it is obvious that he is below Maul anyway.

He didn't exactly suck. He defeated a Jedi Master in seconds without a Lightsaber.

Point is Dooku mentioned after he trained Opress that he only finished "the first stages" of his training. I.e. Not yet at the level he wanted him to be.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and did Dooku really think he'd be able to take on Sidious with a Savage on TPM Maul level?

Well Dooku's pretty damn powerful himself. When Mace Windu can defeat Sidious on his own why's it hard to believe Count Dooku with the aid of another Sith Lord could be a match for Sids??

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and also, does Dooku know ANYTHING about Maul's force abilities about TPM? Most likely not, because they were not well documented as you've said yourself, only his saber skills.

Well how did Dooku know about Maul destroying Black Sun?? He obviously had an idea of who Maul was, what he did and what he was capable of.

And he knew he was significantly above Qui-Gon as well whose abilities Dooku was obviously very familiar with.

So he would have had a fair idea of Maul's abilities at least.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Savage is quite good with the saber staff himself so I doubt that will be a key factor anyway.

There is a huge difference in their skill levels. That's why Opress wanted to find Maul remember, to learn to use his powers from a much more experienced, masterful and skilled force warrior.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and when did Kenobi deal with Savage's strenght with martial arts?

Kicking in the knee is a martial art tactic designed to weaken your opponent. Especially if he's some big brute.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and I also doubt TPM Maul could do that arm twist considering his boost by Talzin. and where are the several praises towards his martial art skills?

Your really doubting a lot about what Maul could do and seem to be putting everything Maul does now down to Talzin's boost.

And yet so far Maul doesn't seem surprised at all by what he's capable of, and not one mention yet about him being much more powerful than he ever was.

The arm twist was more to do with Combat Prowess than some kind of force enahanced strength Imo.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
He knew he'd lose. Even Qui-Gon had belief in himself to fight on. This alone puts Qui-Gon above Bondara IMO.

Nope Qui-Gon wasn't even sure him and Obi-Wan together could defeat Maul.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
It's more logical to base his powers off of his fight with Maul than just put him on say Grievous' level.
So in this case you will have to ask yourself ''how good is TPM Maul?''

Lol Qui-Gon can't win here. Because we only saw him fight Maul and he lost. So that automatically makes him weak to people. Makes no sense to me though.

Qui-Gon could have easily been above Grievous's level and TPM Maul could have easily been above Ventress's level.

In fact we would expect that considering he was a fully trained Sith Lord unlike Ventress who was a wannabe. And let's not forget Sidious chose Maul trained him himself vigorously for years, whilst Sidious wasn't interested in Ventress in the slightest.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and there is many (including me) that he isn't very good with the force and below the likes of RotS Obi-Wan, Mace, Dooku with a saber by quite a bit. That's why he's low on a lot of lists.

In Sabers he's probably below ROTS Kenobi. But he won't be miles below Imo.

This all comes down to your assuming Maul and Qui-Gon to be very weak. Whilst I'm assuming them to be much stronger.

Neither of us have proof but I'd say the hints and background we get supports my stance more.

Being chosen as an apprentice by Sidious, the unparalleled training for over a decade, all the statements about his unmatched combat skills, Sidious's own opinion of him, Dooku's words and opinion of him.

And then there's Current Maul's feats. And he's not exactly saying Oh my frigging word I just moved a Jedi craft, and levitated a Jedi Master! Thanks Talzin your the best!

Given all that I'm pretty sure he must have always been powerful. There's no way I'll believe he was below Ventress level, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
You focus on Grievous ''bad performances'' rather than his good ones. Recently he also got the better of CW Kenobi. That fight with the 5 jedi shows the potential of Grievous in a fight.

They're not "bad performances" anymore. They are actually pretty "consistent performances" now. The only time he beat a Kinght in the new show was by shooting him.

So I'd say it was the fighting 5 Jedi that was his "High Performance". That was his version of Savage choking Dooku and Ventress. And Btw those 5 Jedi were said to have all been exhausted from the battle they were just in.

And I really don't care how many times he's "kicked" Kenobi back. He kicked Ventress back and "seemed" to be getting the better off her before she chopped his arm off and had him on the floor at her mercy.

He had to cheat then, by calling for his soldiers to shoot at her. Even though she gave him an houorable battle without using even 1 Force Push against him. And her force powers are pretty good!

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
and his fight with Fisto and Ashoka doesn't take away from Grievous, but more says something about Fisto and Ashoka's skills.

Ashoka's not even a Kinght. I doubt anyone's going to believe she could challenge Qui-Gon or TPM Maul.

And likewise I could say Anoon losing to Maul says more about how good Maul is instead of taking away from Anoon.. See how that works?? 🙂

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I meant can Maul produce force lightning.

Well he had greater mastery of the Force than someone who could.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didn't exactly suck. He defeated a Jedi Master in seconds without a Lightsaber.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Point is Dooku mentioned after he trained Opress that he only finished "the first stages" of his training. I.e. Not yet at the level he wanted him to be.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Dooku's pretty damn powerful himself. When Mace Windu can defeat Sidious on his own why's it hard to believe Count Dooku with the aid of another Sith Lord could be a match for Sids?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well how did Dooku know about Maul destroying Black Sun?? He obviously had an idea of who Maul was, what he did and what he was capable of.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And he knew he was significantly above Qui-Gon as well whose abilities Dooku was obviously very familiar with.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So he would have had a fair idea of Maul's abilities at least.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There is a huge difference in their skill levels. That's why Opress wanted to find Maul remember, to learn to use his powers from a much more experienced, masterful and skilled force warrior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kicking in the knee is a martial art tactic designed to weaken your opponent. Especially if he's some big brute.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your really doubting a lot about what Maul could do and seem to be putting everything Maul does now down to Talzin's boost.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet so far Maul doesn't seem surprised at all by what he's capable of,

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and not one mention yet about him being much more powerful than he ever was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nope Qui-Gon wasn't even sure him and Obi-Wan together could defeat Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol Qui-Gon can't win here. Because we only saw him fight Maul and he lost. So that automatically makes him weak to people. Makes no sense to me though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Qui-Gon could have easily been above Grievous's level and TPM Maul could have easily been above Ventress's level.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In fact we would expect that considering he was a fully trained Sith Lord unlike Ventress who was a wannabe. And let's not forget Sidious chose Maul trained him himself vigorously for years, whilst Sidious wasn't interested in Ventress in the slightest.

and this doesn't matter anyway. Grievous also says ''You consider him a threat?'' about Savage but doesn't mean Grievous>Savage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This all comes down to your assuming Maul and Qui-Gon to be very weak. Whilst I'm assuming them to be much stronger.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Being chosen as an apprentice by Sidious, the unparalleled training for over a decade, all the statements about his unmatched combat skills, Sidious's own opinion of him, Dooku's words and opinion of him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And then there's Current Maul's feats.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And he's not exactly saying Oh my frigging word I just moved a Jedi craft, and levitated a Jedi Master! Thanks Talzin your the best!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Given all that I'm pretty sure he must have always been powerful. There's no way I'll believe he was below Ventress level, that's for sure.

And likewise I could say Anoon losing to Maul says more about how good Maul is instead of taking away from Anoon.. See how that works?? 🙂 [/B][/QUOTE]
No, because that was Ashoka's and Fisto's ''positive'' feats that I'm aware of, but Grievous has many more feats to determine his powers. It's more logical to credit Ashoka and Fisto than to not say Grievous is bad by those performances.

in comparison, Maul was floored by an enraged TPM Kenobi as I've already pointed. This Kenobi's saber skills aren't second to none, so this further proves that the statement about Anoon is a hyperole

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Who?

I can't remember his name. It was the first episode Opress appeared in. Before his training with Dooku but after Mother Talzin's enhancement.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Point is he didn't know what level he wanted him to be.

Of course he did. Weaker than Dooku himself (hence not teaching him how to block FL), but powerful enough to aid him in defeating the Emperor.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
You do realise that three jedi masters were slaughtered, two blitzed and another quickly killed, this while Mace was there. Dooku and Maul wouldn't stand a chance.

Yeah and then Mace defeated Sidious by himself. You think Mace is more powerful than Dooku and Maul combined??

I think your underestimating Dooku if you think that he wouldn't stand even a chance against the Emperor with (the equivalent of) Darth Maul by his side.

Dooku is almost Mace's equal, and Maul is superior to those 3 Jedi who got blitzed.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
He knew of it because there's been showings of Maul doing it in other book(s). It'd be stupid if Dooku knew about somethng that we've never seen before. Therefore it's also more likely that he isn't as good with the force per TPM as you assume him to be.

LOL What Dooku's source is the same novels and comic books we have??

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I refuse to believe Dooku was given an essay about Qui-Gon's fight with Maul, especially since only Obi-Wan was there. And he certainly knows nothing about Maul's force powers at this point.

Urm, is Obi-Wan not enough to give an account of exactly what happened?

Did you know Sidious knew exactly what happened in that fight? (Darth Maul's Journal). How did he know? F*** Knows. But why question that?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Don't contradict yourself. When I pointed out Savage said ''you've grown so powerful'' you said it was since he met him so he didn't know anything about TPM Maul's skills. Now you say Savage thought of Maul as a much more skilled warrior, proof of this?

LOL Why did he seek him out for training. Obviously when Savage found Maul, Maul was a demented cripple not really capable of taking on any Jedi. But he was looking for his brother to mentor him? Why? Because he knows Maul has the training and skill set that Opress lacks.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Nope, only the narrator which I've already pointed out.

"His need for Vengeance reawakened more powerful than ever.."

The context is right there for you. So stop trying to make it mean something different. At that point in time any Jedi could have cut Maul to pieces no problem.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
in comparison, Maul was floored by an enraged TPM Kenobi as I've already pointed. This Kenobi's saber skills aren't second to none, so this further proves that the statement about Anoon is a hyperole

What are you talking about. Your denying countless statements of Maul's unmatched Combat Prowess because at one point an enraged Obi-Wan floored him.

That's like denying Dooku is more powerful than Obi-Wan because at one point Opress choked him.

Maul had been fighting a lot longer than the enraged Obi-Wan, and underestimated his power up. That's all. But Maul's combat Saber and Close Combat skills were pretty peerless. Canon Fact.