Hemidall vs Aquaman

I was talking about your "convenient excuse" statement.

Johns hinted in Brightest Day that Arthur Junior's death was still in continuity. That's not part of Aquaman's origin. Then, post reboot, it was stated that Mera "came back" to Aquaman. The only time she'd left him significantly was Arthur Junior's death back in the pre crisis days, and yet that issue had Aquaman fighting Garth in combat, but in current continuity Garth is little more than a child.

Obviously a lot has been changed with the reboot. Aquaman's actual origin in terms of his birth has been reverted back to his silver age origin.

Johns is doing, at least from what I can tell, the same thing that he did with Hal: Adding to his history without necessarily changing every detail. Sure, some are big changes, but I'm waiting to see what gets carried over, because Johns hasn't really been clear about the whole thing.

Also, Mera kept her revised origin from BD in the new continuity.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Thx
Aquaman has one punch KOed 100 toners before.
In DCnU he lifted an ocean liner, full with cargo and passengers.
The trident hurt Darkseid.

He takes this.

I figured Aquaman was stronger but Heimdall has superior senses so he might be able to counter the strength disadvantage

Also the reason he abandoned Atlantis is a direct continuation from Brightest Day.
And they are living in the same place they did in Brightest Day.

And when Johns was asked directly how much of Aquaman's history he is going to keep intact, he said "it's all there"

Originally posted by comicfan11
Also the reason he abandoned Atlantis is a direct continuation from Brightest Day.
And they are living in the same place they did in Brightest Day.

And when Johns was asked directly how much of Aquaman's history he is going to keep intact, he said "it's all there"

When did he say that?

Originally posted by golem370
I figured Aquaman was stronger but Heimdall has superior senses so he might be able to counter the strength disadvantage

Aquaman is also more durable and faster, possibly quicker.

He also has a very powerful weapon as standard equipment.
And he is warrior and a strategist.
And also super hearing and super sight.
Also resistance to fire, electricity, cold, immunity to poison, etc.

And all of the above are shown in the NuDCU.

He most certainly doesn't need telepathy to take out Heimdal.

^ I do think it is convenient to be waiting for something that realistically isn't going to be happening.

Mera retaining some Brightest Day retcons doesn't seem nearly as relevant to Aquaman's post-Flashpoint history. Mera's been painfully absent from Arthur's adventures before Brightest Day. The inconsistencies you pointed out highlight that.

Johns completely gutted Cyborg. Johns and his GL cohorts completely gutted Kyle and Guy. And Aquaman is closer to them than Hal. These are all our own opinions of course. But now you know why I think the way I do.

Originally posted by ODG
^ I do think it is convenient to be waiting for something that realistically isn't going to be happening.

Mera retaining some Brightest Day retcons doesn't seem nearly as relevant to Aquaman's post-Flashpoint history. Mera's been painfully absent from Arthur's adventures before Brightest Day.

Johns completely gutted Cyborg. Johns and his GL cohorts completely gutted Kyle and Guy. And Aquaman is closer to them than Hal. These are all our own opinions of course. But now you know why I think the way I do.

I do, even If I think you're way off.

^ Needless to say, the feeling is completely mutual and then some.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Needless to say, the feeling is completely mutual and then some.

I just don't see how it's unrealistic to think that Johns might tell us if Arthur junior existed in this timeline, or if he'll elaborate on what Arthur's telepathy can do. Both of those are pretty straightforward.

shrug

Originally posted by -Pr-
When did he say that?

In the standard interviews during some convention.

Here's one

http://www.aquamanshrine.com/2011/10/aquaman-shrine-interview-with-geoff.html#.UN5sy3c6U_A

"Those other stories that happened have happened"

Can't find the other interviews.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I just don't see how it's unrealistic to think that Johns might tell us if Arthur junior existed in this timeline, or if he'll elaborate on what Arthur's telepathy can do. Both of those are pretty straightforward.

shrug

In other words, I'm not waiting for Johns to clarify whether or not Crisis of Conscience occurred (or something like it) to disregard Aquaman battling a top-tier telepath like Despero.

There's pretty much no chance whatsoever him and J'onn fought Despero in an adventure stemming from Jean Loring's murder of Elongated Man's wife. And since there is no realistic reason to expect any writer addressing this (much less Johns), I don't see any point to waiting.

Originally posted by comicfan11
In the standard interviews during some convention.

Here's one

http://www.aquamanshrine.com/2011/10/aquaman-shrine-interview-with-geoff.html#.UN5sy3c6U_A

"Those other stories that happened have happened"

Can't find the other interviews.

👆

Originally posted by comicfan11
In the standard interviews during some convention.

Here's one

http://www.aquamanshrine.com/2011/10/aquaman-shrine-interview-with-geoff.html#.UN5sy3c6U_A

"Those other stories that happened have happened"

Can't find the other interviews.

Thanks, reading now.

Hmm. I'm not sure that means everything is canon, tbh. I mean, Johns has shifted the origin at the very least, so some stuff has changed.

Originally posted by ODG
That's not what I think is unrealistic. I think it's unrealistic to wait for hints that a certain pre-Flashpoint fight with some foe happened or didn't happen before disregarding that fight (and its feats) from consideration.

In other words, I'm not waiting for Johns to clarify whether or not Crisis of Conscience occurred (or something like it) to disregard Aquaman battling a top-tier telepath like Despero.

There's pretty much no chance whatsoever him and J'onn fought Despero in an adventure stemming from Jean Loring's murder of Elongated Man's wife. And since there is no realistic reason to expect any writer addressing this (much less Johns), I don't see any point to waiting.

But that's not what I'm talking about waiting for, even if it was written by Johns. 😬

I mean, sure, Blackest Night and Brightest Day are canon; but I hardly think we're going to see minute explanations of minor arcs being brought out.

Originally posted by -Pr-
But that's not what I'm talking about waiting for, even if it was written by Johns. 😬

I mean, sure, Blackest Night and Brightest Day are canon; but I hardly think we're going to see minute explanations of minor arcs being brought out.

Originally posted by ODG
So if you're not waiting for that -- which is what I got from your "until exact canonicity has been established" comment -- what are you waiting for before disregarding that history?

Johns to clear up the matter of Arthur's telepathy and some of the key points in his history, basically.

As far as telepathy goes, him using it on non-Marine life especially is something I'm waiting to see, as pre-reboot, it wasn't an outlier; it was a stated part of his telepathy.

Even Marine telepathy, something that used to be used at least once an issue pre-reboot, hasn't really been expanded upon since Flashpoint, with only a few instances of it being shown.

I'm especially cautious of this because Johns has gone out of his way to physically amp Aquaman to an extent we've not seen him operate at before. Sure, I'd love to turn around and say "well if he's more powerful physically, he should be more powerful telepathically", but that would be silly, I think.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Johns to clear up the matter of Arthur's telepathy and some of the key points in his history, basically.

If nothing in his prior history matters until something happens in current stories to confirm/reject it, how is that any different than someone treating him as a blank slate? And you've made it clear that the latter is not something you're willing to do or agree with.

Originally posted by ODG
This statement means you are looking forward and that has little bearing on why you're not yet disregarding his prior history. Obviously, if Aquaman starts using telepathy on non-marine life in Aquaman #17, he can use it currently. Obviously, if Aquaman suddenly has a long-lost twin brother in Aquaman #30, he has a twin. But that doesn't explain why you're reticent to let go of his prior history.

If nothing in his prior history matters until something happens in current stories to confirm/reject it, how is that any different than someone treating him as a blank slate? And you've made it clear that the latter is not something you're willing to do or agree with.

So you want me to disregard everything that came before Flashpoint, then?

^ I'm asking you whether or not that's what you're actually doing even if you don't want to say it outright.

Let's say current Aquaman mindphucks a U.S. soldier in Aquaman #17. Great, from that point, nobody is going to deny that he can do that. But does that single showing somehow bring back in all of Aquaman's pre-Flashpoint non-marine tp feats into consideration that are more impressive... like mindphucking White Martians?

Before you answer that rhetorical question, consider this: beyond that single White Martian feat in that minor story arc, a lot of Aquaman's impressive non-marine telepathy feats occurred during the entire Morrison/Waid JLA run where he's one-handed and fighting alongside J'onn and Wally. Is that long extensive history now fair game because a single current telepathy feat magically opened some floodgate of canonicity?

Needless to say, I don't think that's how you'd react at all. And, if I'm right, then you'll take current Aquaman's soldier tp feat for what it is and not irresponsibly extrapolate White Martian pwning telepathy levels from it. So if that's the case, aren't you just flatly disregarding Aquaman's prior history all the same?

Originally posted by ODG
^ I'm asking you whether or not that's what you're actually doing even if you don't want to say it outright.

Let's say current Aquaman mindphucks a U.S. soldier in Aquaman #17. Great, from that point, nobody is going to deny that he can do that. But does that single showing somehow bring back in all of Aquaman's pre-Flashpoint non-marine tp feats into consideration that are more impressive... like mindphucking White Martians?

Before you answer that rhetorical question, consider this: beyond that single White Martian feat in that minor story arc, a lot of Aquaman's impressive non-marine telepathy feats occurred during the entire Morrison/Waid JLA run where he's one-handed and fighting alongside J'onn and Wally. Is that long extensive history now fair game because a single current telepathy feat magically opened some floodgate of canonicity?

Needless to say, I don't think that's how you'd react at all. And, if I'm right, then you'll take current Aquaman's soldier tp feat for what it is and not irresponsibly extrapolate White Martian pwning telepathy levels from it. So if that's the case, aren't you just flatly disregarding Aquaman's prior history all the same?

No, I won't be extrapolating like you said. I'd just like Johns to tell us whether he can use it at all or not, seeing as he's brought over aspects (at least continuity wise) from his pre-FP Brightest Day/Blackest Night stuff (and beyond on one occasion). So in terms of continuity, I can't disregard anything due to Johns being the **** that he is in picking and choosing what to carry over. Unless otherwise stated, obviously.

Though funnily enough, Aquaman had more feats against non-marine life during his solo-runs under several different writers than he had under Morrison/Waid in JLA. His actual best ones were in solo books too.

😛

In terms of feats, I'm adopting a "wait and see" approach. Sure, I might not extrapolate up and say that one mental feat against a fodder human means he's taking down White Martians.

What if he mind-rapes Superman, though? What do we do then?

Right now, he's stronger than he's ever been. So naturally, I would assume that, because he's capable of lifting temples, cruise ships and moving large rock-masses, that he's stronger than he was when he lifted the city block underwater.

Right now, I can't go in to threads and say that post-reboot Aquaman wins telepathically, because he's shown ****-all since the reboot, even though Johns has been making an effort to show how much more capable and bad-ass he is.

At the same time, though, if I say Heimdall wins, and next month Aquaman goes on a telepathic raping spree, I'm going to look kind of stupid, I think.

Well, that post was longer than I'd intended.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No, I won't be extrapolating like you said. I'd just like Johns to tell us whether he can use it at all or not, seeing as he's brought over aspects (at least continuity wise) from his pre-FP Brightest Day/Blackest Night stuff (and beyond on one occasion). So in terms of continuity, I can't disregard anything due to Johns being the **** that he is in picking and choosing what to carry over. Unless otherwise stated, obviously.

Though funnily enough, Aquaman had more feats against non-marine life during his solo-runs under several different writers than he had under Morrison/Waid in JLA. His actual best ones were in solo books too.

😛

In terms of feats, I'm adopting a "wait and see" approach. Sure, I might not extrapolate up and say that one mental feat against a fodder human means he's taking down White Martians.

Originally posted by -Pr-
What if he mind-rapes Superman, though? What do we do then?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Right now, he's stronger than he's ever been. So naturally, I would assume that, because he's capable of lifting temples, cruise ships and moving large rock-masses, that he's stronger than he was when he lifted the city block underwater.

Right now, I can't go in to threads and say that post-reboot Aquaman wins telepathically, because he's shown ****-all since the reboot, even though Johns has been making an effort to show how much more capable and bad-ass he is.

At the same time, though, if I say Heimdall wins, and next month Aquaman goes on a telepathic raping spree, I'm going to look kind of stupid, I think.

Well, that post was longer than I'd intended.

He hasn't shown any non-marine telepathy since his return in Blackest Night or Brightest Day either. The closest thing he's got is a vague reference to a telepathic link between him and Ya'wara.

Not really, why would you? You were working with what you knew to be confirmed.

Anyway, I don't think we're actually far off in our ideas, even if if we're far off in spirit. That sounds totally homo, yes. But I can't figure out how to word that better. Clearly, discussing Aquaman makes you gay.