Starkiller Runs a Gauntlet

Started by Pwned3 pages

Originally posted by jmoul
His loss to Sidious depends on which source you look at. In the game it was self-sacrifice, in the book it was an utter stomp.

Also, all of the strong opponents would be able to sense Starkiller building up power and try to respond, but don't forget that he has an hour to rest and prepare in advance before each fight, so if he had any brain at all he would gather his strength while he rested, therefore, pwned, your argue kent about Bane killing Starkiller before he gathers his power is, in nice terms, invalid.

I haven;t beaten the game in a while, but I do believe he was still losing.

And the problem is, nobody can hold Force energy in them for a long time. He would get one shot at it and then its over.

Originally posted by jmoul
His loss to Sidious depends on which source you look at. In the game it was self-sacrifice, in the book it was an utter stomp.

It was self sacrifice in the book. He purposely put down his defenses to save the rebels.

Since the game doesn't contradict that notion(how would we know from the cut scene if he was putting down his force defenses) we can possibly take that as canon.

I don't know where utter stomp comes from. In the novel Sidious screams. In the comic he's left smoking. In the game he simply wins unscathed.

But utter stomp? I'm not sure that happens anywhere. Utter stomp would basically be a non-fight. However there clearly was a fight and struggle in all mediums.

What happened after he dropped his defenses is what I was referring to. After he did that, he was utterly stomped. Sorry for the confusion there.

Well given that he already lost to Sidious..... Quite handily, in fact.

I will point out again that he lost in unfair and onesided contest. He had no absorb ability or lightsaber to defend against lightning.

Neither canon source shows him losing "quite handily".

Bane's level of swordsmanship by DoE is enough to overcome whatever Starkiller brings his way.

Marek drilled his saber skills just like Force skills from childhood. And he demonstrated his skill on multiple occasions and nowhere he was shown to be inferior in any way.
Whether Bane or Marek is better cannot be determined.

As stated, his main chance would be in gathering an immense amount of power.

You think so? Where exactly is it stated that he needs to gather power?

How about this:
"He caught the general in a choke hold and maintained his grip even though it turned partially back on him. He had been ready for this; his lungs were full. The general, however, clutched at his throat with one hand while barely managing to parry with the other. The apprentice let the fire in his lungs fuel his lust for triumph. Even as darkness crowded around the edges of his vision, he sent objects hurtling at Kota's legs and face, battling him on all fronts.

Finally a fragment of smoking debris struck the general's knees from behind. With a cry of frustration, the flailing Jedi went down, his face purple and eyes bulging. The apprentice relented slightly, letting them both have a little air"

As you see Marek demonstrated Force choking, attacking with lightsaber and throwing objects simultaniously, while he was Force choked himself. Even Dooku's offensive TK is childs play comparing to him.

Likes of Dooku, Kenobi and Anakin are unable to break free from Force choke. Marek in comparison could break free even from Vader's grip:
"One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room"

Therein, battles are subject to nebulous elements like circumstance, motivation, terrain, and a host of character idiosyncrasies.

I always pay attention to such circumstances.
Indeed, Luke seem to hold back most of the time and use just enough Force to overcome his opponent.

But as I pointed out above it is not just immense power that makes Marek to stand out, it is how he utilizes his power during saber combat to outwit opponents.

Most of opponents Luke faced were just trying to overpower him like Unu'thul with no attempt to outwit or outskill.

Jacen outwits Luke:
"Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.

"Dad, look —
Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood.
"

A Sith electrocutes Luke:
"Then he rolled his blade around, brought it down, and sent a Sith
forearm sliding across the grotto floor. Whom it had belonged to, Ben could not tell.
In the next instant his father was riding a bolt of Force lightning into the grotto wall beside him. Ben ignited his lightsaber and shoved the blade into
the crackling energy, disrupting the current and freeing his father
".

Yes, as you said it's all circumstantial. However, fact stays that Marek specifically excells at outwitting his opponents and noone Luke faced apart from Jacen was as good at it.

Yes Starkiller was a beast with the Force. And pretty skilled in Sabers too. There's very few Jedi/Sith who could stand up to him in an all out, and I don't see anyone "stomping" him.

Originally posted by Arhael

You think so? Where exactly is it stated that he needs to gather power?

How about this:
"He caught the general in a choke hold and maintained his grip even though it turned partially back on him. He had been ready for this; his lungs were full. The general, however, clutched at his throat with one hand while barely managing to parry with the other. The apprentice let the fire in his lungs fuel his lust for triumph. Even as darkness crowded around the edges of his vision, he sent objects hurtling at Kota's legs and face, battling him on all fronts.

Finally a fragment of smoking debris struck the general's knees from behind. With a cry of frustration, the flailing Jedi went down, his face purple and eyes bulging. The apprentice relented slightly, letting them both have a little air"

As you see Marek demonstrated Force choking, attacking with lightsaber and throwing objects simultaniously, while he was Force choked himself. Even Dooku's offensive TK is childs play comparing to him.

Likes of Dooku, Kenobi and Anakin are unable to break free from Force choke. Marek in comparison could break free even from Vader's grip:
"One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room"

I always pay attention to such circumstances.
Indeed, Luke seem to hold back most of the time and use just enough Force to overcome his opponent.

But as I pointed out above it is not just immense power that makes Marek to stand out, it is how he utilizes his power during saber combat to outwit opponents.

Most of opponents Luke faced were just trying to overpower him like Unu'thul with no attempt to outwit or outskill.

Nice write-up, but I was in no way talking about basic Force techniques. I was talking about massive displays of lighting such as both Bane and Galen unleashed, or large scale Force waves, etc, all of which take time to gather.

I was in no way saying that close in Galen is weak, just that his most overwhelming attacks will not be brought to bear in close-quarters and that in that situation I believe Bane will conquer him, and if not Bane, Zannah, assuming that he falls to no one in between.

I do not believe him capable of taking the entire gauntlet.

He pretty much loses at DoE Bane.

DoE Bane is equal with Sidious in terms of combat-abilities. Marek would put up a slight struggle but die.

Starkiller put up a pretty strong fight against Sidious and would've won had Kota not kept him from falling back to the dark side (game version). Since Starkiller chose to accept his fate and save the Rebel Leaders to remain a Jedi, you can't really say that he fully lost to Sidious, and, therefore, can't really say that he would lose to Bane or Zannah for that specific reason.

First, Starkiller "was no match for the power of Darth Sidious" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). The degree to which the latter is superior to the former is up for debate; the fact that he is is not.

Second, prior research is all well and good, but concluding Character X is lesser or greater than or equal to Character Y based on arguments from previous threads is nothing more than an argument by consensus, which is a blatant logical fallacy.

On Wikipedia, Vader is declared more powerful in the Force than Yoda, and look at how Galen wupped Vader's arse, not to mention Palpatine's, who managed to Repulse Yoda off of a platform.

Originally posted by Sybrael
On Wikipedia, Vader is declared more powerful in the Force than Yoda, and look at how Galen wupped Vader's arse, not to mention Palpatine's, who managed to Repulse Yoda off of a platform.

Well, Wiki is wrong on this one....

Also IMHO:
OT Palpatine > RotS Palpatine = RotS Yoda > Galen >= Vader

Re: Starkiller Runs a Gauntlet

Originally posted by jmoul
In the Cato Nemoidian arena. Starkiller has two lightsabers, is completely in the zone and gets an hour's rest between rounds, with one warm up round:

Johun Othone
DoE Darth Bane
RotS Anakin
RotJ Darth Sidious
RotJ Luke
DoE Darth Zannah
AotC Yoda
Count Dooku
Grand Master Luke

How far does Starkiller get and how long does he last in his last round?

He stomps fight one, and depending on whether or not Bane has his Orbalisks, round 2 is debatable. However, I'm going to assume he's not, and say he loses at Anakin or Sidious.

If he was going to just fight Grand Master Luke, he wouldn't last long, I'm afraid.

It is DoE Bane. No orbalisks.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Well, Wiki is wrong on this one....

Also IMHO:
OT Palpatine > RotS Palpatine = RotS Yoda > Galen >= Vader

I agree, completely, with this entire chart.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Nice write-up, but I was in no way talking about basic Force techniques.

Basic? Quite opposite. Unleashing powerful Force attack like lightning in blatant attempt to overpower opponent is as basic as it could be. It demonstrates no skill and works, only if one character is significantly more powerful and still not always.

Marek demonstrated Force choking, throwing objects and attacking with lightsaber simultaniously. It is as advanced and as skilled utilization of the Force as there possibly could be. Likes of Kenobi, Ventress and even Dooku got handled by Force choke alone.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I was in no way saying that close in Galen is weak, just that his most overwhelming attacks will not be brought to bear in close-quarters

Considering that his overwhelming attacks derive from standard abilities (telekinesis, lighting, etc.) and those powers are routinely utilized by adepts in single combat, I'm curious what leads you to this conclusion.

Those basic powers are used alone most often, Starkiller was able to do them all simultaneously, a bit more advanced than the basics if you ask me. At the same time, when he uses a single power, it is powerful to a terrifying level. So whether in close quarters or not, Starkiller kills, as his name suggests.

Originally posted by -kV-

In this gauntlet, Marek loses to Bane, Sidious, Yoda, and Grand Master Luke.

Fixed.

And I don't see RotS Anakin surviving Marek, at all.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Fixed.

And I don't see RotS Anakin surviving Marek, at all.

Why do you say that?

I personally would give Marek the majority but I do think the possibility exists for ROTS Anakin to win.

End of the day Mace Windu defeated a far superior Force user to him just by besting him in Saber combat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why do you say that?

Specifically so I could get a response from you, and we could flirt with each other. 🙄

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I personally would give Marek the majority but I do think the possibility exists for ROTS Anakin to win.

Anakin wouldn't be able to take the sheer power behind Marek's swings, and Marek could simply just blow him apart with some Force attacks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

End of the day Mace Windu defeated a far superior Force user to him just by besting him in Saber combat.

Sidious wasn't "far" superior to him - hell, he wasn't even truly "superior" to him, at all.

In ranged-attacks, maybe. But overall? No, not at all.