Originally posted by The Merchant
You should reread my next post. When I made that post my memory was hazy and mixed up both movie and book canons. Movie canon Voldy and DD are more or less equals and no evidence really supports either being better over the other, I can concede on that.Book canon it was a different atiry. DD was outright superior to Voldy, he was calmed throughout the entire fight and nearly won with his fire whip and practically bested him with the water prison all without trying tk iill Voldy.
But I suppose that's irrelevant since this is just movie canon, but again movie canon really has nothing to make a solid stance on for either so it's kind of redundant to argue whom is superipr to who using that duel.
As for GW, I assume the statement DD made about being equals in raw power and only a shade more skilled is referencing GW with the elder wand vs. DD with a normal wand since that's what the duel came down to. GW without the elder wand would have been noticably weaker, which fits in line with FB2 on GW saying he can't beat DD only Credende despite having a boost from the EW.
In the books Voldemort more or less stalemates him too and when you read it knowing he had the elder wand it seems to clearly show Voldemort is superior to Albus when it comes to pure magical power.
Also it has been a long time since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to the time period he spent with GW when he was in Godrics Hollow when referenced being a shade more skilled. This would have been before the Elder Wand had came into the possession of GW.
They bonded over, among other things, their great skill at magic. If Dumbledore could defeat an Elder Wand wielding GW then it would mean he would obliterate him normally. Yet it's made to seem like Dumbledore was some magical prodigy and GW was more or less a peer when it came to magical talent.
In the books they weren't equals though, Dumbledore is significantly more powerful
>Narrator states several times DD was calm and had no fear and was even talking to Voldemort like he 2as having a drink with him. Voldemort on the other hand was bloodlusted and angry, the chapter is even called "the only one he ever feared" since DD was outright said to not have fear this refers to Voldy.
>Voldemort mentions how Dumbledore wasn't even trying to kill him, and Dumbledores spell was so energetic a Harry that was several feet away and underneath a gold statue felt his hair stand on end, something Voldemort never did.
>In the books version of the Water Prison, Voldemort was practically beaten. He was trapped and couldn't get out, he had to resort to teleporting and possessing Harry.
>Against the non lethal spell already mentioned, Voldemort was forced to conjure a shield as said by the narrator to block it, implying his own magical power couldn't defend from it or at least he didn't have the time to do so.
The only time Voldemort was successful against an attack from Dumbledore using his own magic was when DD blasted him with the fire whip spell, turning it inti a snake. Then he teleported and unleashed an AK against Dumbledore while the snake attacked DD both at the same time. That's the only moment Voldemort could argue ti have won since Fawkes took the AK while DD turned the snake inti harmless smoke.
However, earlier in the battle DS was fast enough to teleport away from the AK, why he didn't do this is with the snake/AK combo is unknown especially since he had all the time in the world. Most likely it would have wasyed time to do that since Voldy was on top of that fountain with the water right there, so DD wanted ti trap him in the prison when he could.
So no, the book makes it very clear DD was Voldys superior. He wasn't even trying to kill him and was calm the entire time and fearless. DD even essentially beat him when he trapped in the water prison and Voldy was forded to possess Harry to threaten DD with him. A bloodlusted DD would have been one sided if it came down to it.
As for GW vs. DD, DS was talking about the famous duel when he nentioned the shade more skilled comment.
All in all, the scaling in the books is this:
Dumbledore with the Elder Wand>Dumbledore without EW~Voldemort>=GW with EW>GW with no Elder wand.
Ofc the movie makes Voldy and DD rough equals, so one could argue in the movie Voldemort is superior to a non EW wielding DD.
Originally posted by Surtur
Voldemort stalemated Dumbledore when he was in possession of a super powerful wand. This suggests if they each had a normal wand it would have ended differently.
We know from the battle between Dumbledore and Grindelwald that the Elder Wand does not make up for any lack of skill. Grindelwald and Dumbledore were about even and Grindelwald was the rightful owner of the elder wand, but was still defeated. So that logic I don't believe holds up.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Fear keeps you aware and on edge. He showed himself to be superior despite Dumble having the more powerful wand.
When you say showed that is not objective. It is based on your own subjective perception. As for the Elder Wand argument, the Elder Wand has never been evident to give a wizard a boost or an edge in battle. Grindelwald vs Dumbledore being an example.
Originally posted by Surtur
Voldemort stalemated Dumbledore when he was in possession of a super powerful wand. This suggests if they each had a normal wand it would have ended differently.
In the books Dumbledore was schooling him. The movies make Voldemort seem more like threat but he was still scared
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2It is the more powerful wand so that is an edge that did not look evident due to Voldermorts skill and power level.
When you say showed that is not objective. It is based on your own subjective perception. As for the Elder Wand argument, the Elder Wand has never been evident to give a wizard a boost or an edge in battle. Grindelwald vs Dumbledore being an example.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It is the more powerful wand so that is an edge that did not look evident due to Voldermorts skill and power level.
Gellert Grindlewald vs Dumbledore. Grindlewald had the elder wand and the two were about even. So according to your logic, Grindelwald should have won, but he didn't. So your theory has a false premise.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2No, but he held the advantage due to the superior wand but that does account for skill and power of the user. If someone is quicker that is an advantage not the end all be all and the only variable in a fight.
Gellert Grindlewald vs Dumbledore. Grindlewald had the elder wand and the two were about even. So according to your logic, Grindelwald should have won, but he didn't. So your theory has a false premise.
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, but he held the advantage due to the superior wand but that does account for skill and power of the user. If someone is quicker that is an advantage not the end all be all and the only variable in a fight.
We've already seen that its a matter of skill. While the wand is definitely a good thing to have as it is the most power wand in history, it is not a trump card nor an excuse for Voldemrort's inferior dealing skill. Now granted a full on deal between these two would take hours to complete, but if they're fight in OotP is any indication, Voldemort would have met a brick wall, never once coming close to killing Dumbledore, while Dumbledore almost drowned him, and given that there is no harry now, the likelihood Voldemort breaks free has lessened.