LotF Luke -vs- Dooku, DoE Bane and RotS Sidious

But yeah, I'm not trying to say my point is right, just because many people may agree with it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That may or may not be true. But citing the consensus of others has zero "logical merit."

That depends.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's the only reason you've bothered to provide.

I've cited other reasons earlier in this thread. 😛

Originally posted by The_Tempest
About Bane vis a vis Sidious? Actually, it doesn't. Every single source on the matter attributes greater power to the latter over the former.

But we've found that isn't true.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And we're back to the fallacy. What other people said on the subject is completely irrelevant.

That would be correct - if I were discussing their simply liking the idea.

I spoke of people putting the theories to the test and testing the validity of those theories for themselves.

So after testing these viewpoints for their validity, and finding Bane to be superior over Sidious, then it has logical merit.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Who agrees with you? Are you living in reality?

And the state of my sanity has no bearing on this debate. 😛

Rookwood
That depends.

It doesn't. There is no relationship between an argument's logical merit and the number of people who subscribe to that argument.

Rookwood
I've cited other reasons earlier in this thread.

You cited a singular instance with Bane's display against rain.

Rookwood
But we've found that isn't true.

We haven't. You believe it to be true because Bane deflected raindrops. That's your prerogative. Where you lose me, where you lose Nephthys and jadams3928 is when you allude to mysterious and unidentified others and appeal to consensus and authority (two separate fallacies) in one fell swoop.

Rookwood
That would be correct - if I were discussing their simply liking the idea. That would be correct - if I were discussing their simply liking the idea.

I spoke of people putting the theories to the test and testing the validity of those theories for themselves.

So after testing these viewpoints for their validity, and finding Bane to be superior over Sidious, then it has logical merit.

And you've bothered to substantiate none of this. The argument is circuitous and pointless: You reference "others" who have tested pro-Bane viewpoints, one could reference "others" who have crafted meritable pro-Sidious viewpoints (or pro-anyone viewpoints, for that matter) and the discussion becomes a perpetual exchange of fallacies.

If that's not clear to you, I'm not sure how I can make it more so.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I'm not sure about 'far faster', but yes, Luke is the beast saber duelist here.

Also, I'd question Bane's dueling speed as being above RotS Sids for that matter.
His rain feat is the uberest, but he has never (to my knowledge) displayed such an astonishing speed in an actual duel. In DoE Zannah matched him, as I am told.

Still, Bane is amazingly fast, but not beyond what Palps or perhaps even Dooku can perform.

Zannah never matched him in sabers. He was fast enough even when unarmed in the dungeon that he was able to dodge her blades sufficiently to escape. This is in a close corridor, mind you.

In saber to saber combat he defeated her both with and without orbalisks. She only defeated him in the end by forcing him to attempt to take her mind because he could not defend against her Force tendrils, but he beat her rather soundly in sabers every time. She was never his match there.

As to this thread, I see no way that LotF Luke takes this team solo. Jacen alone was a near thing, and Sidious, Dooku, and Bane as a unit would be more than enough for any single saber duelist that I can think of. Luke wasn't even able to hand Lumiya her head until their third all-out confrontation. His capabilities IMO were very strangely portrayed throughout the series, but regardless he never had a showing that makes him seem capable of surviving this duel.

Ascendancy
She only defeated him in the end by forcing him to attempt to take her mind because he could not defend against her Force tendrils

Originally posted by Eminence
Sounds like she beat him because he could not defend against her Force tendrils.

Well if that shit doesn't sound familiar.

what the holy fuck.

I opened the link, recognized it as anime, and promptly closed that shit.

I mean I thought they were going to say something funny. Also thought Luc was Blax.

Guess that's on me.

Lucien is the Canadian. The African currently operates under the handle of Tzeentch., which I am given to understand is a reference to some sort of figure from the grim darkness of the future....

I meant I thought he was Blax just now because of the anime shit. And the "lawl."

Blax's posts are often drowned out by the clanging of his massive African battlestaff against his kneecaps. I'm not sure how or why you'd mistake the two.

I thought Warhammer was like Starcraft, but apparently it has gods and magic and stuff.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It doesn't. There is no relationship between an argument's logical merit and the number of people who subscribe to that argument.

Not the number by itself, but if those people tested the validity of the theories for themselves, that could mean logical merit.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

You cited a singular instance with Bane's display against rain.

Correct - and we've yet to see Sidious or Dooku replicate a feat that would require such incredible speed, agility and stamina.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

We haven't. You believe it to be true because Bane deflected raindrops. That's your prerogative. Where you lose me, where you lose Nephthys and jadams3928 is when you allude to mysterious and unidentified others and appeal to consensus and authority (two separate fallacies) in one fell swoop.

Losing you and Nephthys in the argument is a tragedy, but jadams3928 is but a merry Retard, who plays upon the ground at his parent's feet, with his toys. 😛

He could care less, since he's likely off, eating his own boogers. ( 😆 )

- But you and Nephthys on the other hand, I'd like you two to see my point of view. Though I have a feeling Nephthys already does.

Much of the rest of my referenced proof though, is actually on the other threads I had subtly eluded to.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

And you've bothered to substantiate none of this. The argument is circuitous and pointless: You reference "others" who have tested pro-Bane viewpoints, one could reference "others" who have crafted meritable pro-Sidious viewpoints (or pro-anyone viewpoints, for that matter) and the discussion becomes a perpetual exchange of fallacies.

If that's not clear to you, I'm not sure how I can make it more so.

Those others have made logical points, though.

I know it's not a numbers game; that's true. But the logical points others have made, in other threads besides this one, do hold merit.

The problem is that you presented this in the precise context of a numbers game: referencing an alleged consensus about Bane vis a vis Sidious that may or may not exist:

Rookwood
Again, the reason 90% of Debators understand that Bane's rain-feat makes him superior to Sidious,

Rookwood
So yeah, other than a few people around here, I was under the impression most people understood Bane was superior to Sidious.

This line of thought is irretrievably errant. An argument by consensus is a logical fallacy and is completely meritless, with no exception.

Well, in a battle of sabers, obviously, while LOTF Luke is the best of the 4, he couldn't take Dooku, Bane, and Sidious at once. He would most definitely have to rely of Force Powers majorly for this battle. The trio's Force Powers together would probably be able to at least be the equivalent of Luke's.

While Luke puts up a great fight, I'm voting the trio to win.